Why are swords so expensive?
- Thread starter Will P.
- Start date
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2002
- Messages
- 400
Are you talking about cheap antiques that you find in your local pawn shop, or well-cared-for blades with historical significance? Modern production swords have to be priced based on two things - 1) the cost of manufacturing and 2) what the market will bear. Antiques have to be valued based on measures of intrinsic value which I (not being a dealer in antiques) am far from capable of describing.
If your 200 year old sword is cheaper than a Cold Steel sword, I would bet on a few things:
1) That 200 year old sword is worthless as a historical piece
2) It's probably been so poorly cared for over the years that to use it as anything other than a display piece would be foolish at best
3) It probably wasn't much of a sword to begin with (This one is iffy - a truly fine sword can be stripped of its value by time and careless masters)
4) That Cold Steel could probably chop it in half (hey, another bit of footage for their video!)
5) If, by some miracle, the blade itself is salvaeable, you'll pay through the nose to have it properly restored - FAR FAR MORE than you'd pay for that Cold Steel piece.
Swords should be expensive. It's not as though they were cheap hundreds of years ago, and if anything, usable swords are cheaper now (relatively speaking) then they've ever been in history.
If your 200 year old sword is cheaper than a Cold Steel sword, I would bet on a few things:
1) That 200 year old sword is worthless as a historical piece
2) It's probably been so poorly cared for over the years that to use it as anything other than a display piece would be foolish at best
3) It probably wasn't much of a sword to begin with (This one is iffy - a truly fine sword can be stripped of its value by time and careless masters)
4) That Cold Steel could probably chop it in half (hey, another bit of footage for their video!)
5) If, by some miracle, the blade itself is salvaeable, you'll pay through the nose to have it properly restored - FAR FAR MORE than you'd pay for that Cold Steel piece.
Swords should be expensive. It's not as though they were cheap hundreds of years ago, and if anything, usable swords are cheaper now (relatively speaking) then they've ever been in history.
I'm talking about my baskethilt made in 1760 or thereabouts that is NOT cheap, or perhaps my Cuirassier's sword made in 1814 by Klingenthal with an excellent condition blade, or perhaps my spadroon made in about 1797, or my 1798 pattern smallsword of equal condition. None of these even approched $2,000. Indeed, save for the baskethilt, they were all less than $1,000. Each and every one has significance, perhaps at Waterloo or Trafalgar.
That cold steel couldn't chop any of them in half even it its dreams. And, how could you even begin to mention a sword's quality without seeing it? Swords made by Klingenthal or in Solingen were top rate for their day, and produced for use in battle when swords were STILL BEING USED IN BATTLE. The naval cutlass I have, MUCH LESS THAN A COLD STEEL was designed for in your face combat aboard ships and, being from the late 1700's, was certainly used in boarding. And, my friend, none of the above need restoration in any way. They are not reproductions. Their blades are in fine shape. I must admit I take your remarks as flames at worst, ignorance at best. And, because I know swords, I still see no need in such high prices for reproductions.
Arkhavain
That cold steel couldn't chop any of them in half even it its dreams. And, how could you even begin to mention a sword's quality without seeing it? Swords made by Klingenthal or in Solingen were top rate for their day, and produced for use in battle when swords were STILL BEING USED IN BATTLE. The naval cutlass I have, MUCH LESS THAN A COLD STEEL was designed for in your face combat aboard ships and, being from the late 1700's, was certainly used in boarding. And, my friend, none of the above need restoration in any way. They are not reproductions. Their blades are in fine shape. I must admit I take your remarks as flames at worst, ignorance at best. And, because I know swords, I still see no need in such high prices for reproductions.
Arkhavain
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2002
- Messages
- 400
See, there's the thing - we obviously have a different pricing scheme in mind here - how much are the Cold Steels you've been looking at? Because the most expensive Western-style Cold Steel I can find just scratches $400, even at full MSRP. A simple internet search will find you any of them for substantially less than $300.
Certainly $1000 will fetch you a fine sword (not so much for Japanese swords, but that's another discussion)
As to the matter of flaming - I stand by my original statement - an old sword that is CHEAPER than a Cold Steel manufactured piece, assuming we're talking street prices rather than full advertised retail, is one that I would bet is not (or rather, is no longer) battle-worthy (whatever that means). Note here the word "bet" - as in, I'm prepared to be wrong. In any event, to offend you was not my intent, and I am sorry you took the statement in that fashion. As to the matter of my being ignorant, I'll freely admit that I know less than I wish I did, but I believe that is true of most thinking beings.
To sum it all up, my point was this: It is my feeling that an antique European sword costing less than $300 would not outperform a modern replica offered at the same price, unless the man selling you the antique was in some way unaware of the value of the piece. If you still have a problem with my statement, feel free to correct me. No need to accuse me of trollish behavior or ignorance - I could demonstrate either in far more spectacular fashion than this.
Certainly $1000 will fetch you a fine sword (not so much for Japanese swords, but that's another discussion)
As to the matter of flaming - I stand by my original statement - an old sword that is CHEAPER than a Cold Steel manufactured piece, assuming we're talking street prices rather than full advertised retail, is one that I would bet is not (or rather, is no longer) battle-worthy (whatever that means). Note here the word "bet" - as in, I'm prepared to be wrong. In any event, to offend you was not my intent, and I am sorry you took the statement in that fashion. As to the matter of my being ignorant, I'll freely admit that I know less than I wish I did, but I believe that is true of most thinking beings.
To sum it all up, my point was this: It is my feeling that an antique European sword costing less than $300 would not outperform a modern replica offered at the same price, unless the man selling you the antique was in some way unaware of the value of the piece. If you still have a problem with my statement, feel free to correct me. No need to accuse me of trollish behavior or ignorance - I could demonstrate either in far more spectacular fashion than this.
In fairness, I was aghast at the $2,000 price tag quoted above. The Cuirassier sword I have cost just above $700, the baskethilt about $900. The spadroon, though, ran about $270 and is still in fighting shape. I do have a nice pipe-backed British 1822 that is in fighting shape that cost just under $300. If my reply was harsh, please forgive.
Ark
Ark
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2002
- Messages
- 400
No problem. I would laugh in the face of a man who tried to sell me a Cold Steel sword for $2000. For the work of a modern custom smith, however, $2000 would be fairly cheap, in my opinion. To be honest, I'm not sure what the appeal is of modern-made custom swords in the European style. Maybe people are simply looking for swords with Western aesthetics, but higher performance. Their interest isn't really replicas, more like 'I want swords I could use today if no one had invented guns.' For Japanese swords, there are modern sword-art schools that create a market for new swords. My experience (such as it is) is mainly with Japanese-style swords and the price curves seem to be wildly different for European swords.
I would, however, love to see your spadroon. Can you describe it?
I would, however, love to see your spadroon. Can you describe it?
SMITH made swords are far more expensive and substantially superior to MANUFACTURED swords. Most swords (manufactured) flooding today's market are stainless steel crap, and despite the claims of tree splitting sharp /surgical steel / battle ready or any of the other attributes put forth by catalogs are junk. Movie swords, despite the cost are not battle worthy and indeed will shatter and likely injure the wielder or bystanders when struck together. Swords are NOT just big knives.
Cold steel swords are made by smiths, albeit marginally educated smiths in China. As has been mentioned, you can buy a new Cold steel sword for about $300. An antique that costs $300 must be either very common or in horrible shape. A custom made sword by a well trained smith will cost at least $1000, more than the antiques that have been mentioned, and there are reasons for that.
Triton
Gold Member
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2000
- Messages
- 35,556
Their interest isn't really replicas, more like 'I want swords I could use today if no one had invented guns.
I'm afraid that simply isn't true, there are people that are every bit as interested in having a good replica of an Oakeshott XVIIIa as people interested in having a Japanese style katana. There are also more and more people practicing what they style Western Martial Arts these days.
I'm afraid that simply isn't true, there are people that are every bit as interested in having a good replica of an Oakeshott XVIIIa as people interested in having a Japanese style katana. There are also more and more people practicing what they style Western Martial Arts these days.
bithabus said:
That is not entirely true. Take Patrick Barta at www.templ.net, for example. His Roman Riding Sword is 400 Euros, about $523US at current exchange rates, and is a superbly made reproduction of one of the Nydam Bog swords. I know how good it is, for I have one. And it comes with a very nicely done scabbard for the price. I admit that the sinking dollar has made his work rather more expensive, but some of it is still a good buy, and the Roman Riding Sword is a really good buy. He does have a good number of his swords priced at less than 700 Euros, or $915US. Similarly, Lutel makes quite nice swords for less than your $1,000.00 price.
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2002
- Messages
- 400
That's cool. I can definitely understand the appeal to haveing a proper replica that it wouldn't be a crime against history to actually use and enjoy. Can you point me to some sites for getting more information on Western swordarts? I'd love to see a class in action.
FullerH said:
Aren't those production swords? By 'custom' I was referring to unique swords. Anyway, even at $500 those swords cost more than the antiques that were mentioned. My point was just that a good contemporary sword will cost more (sometimes much more) than some good antiques.
Triton
Gold Member
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2000
- Messages
- 35,556
knife saber said:
Well I'm a bit embarassed but I don't really keep up with those guys as well as I should. I know that the guys at the ARMA (www.thehaca.com) are the most easily found, but there are all sorts of societies all over the place. Also for some nice looking replicas check out www.armor.com or www.albionarmorers.comOr the above-named Patrick Barta at TEMPL or Lutel, both of which are in the Czech Republic.
Bithabus, I would certainly count the Lutel swords as production, but I am not so certain about Patrick Barta. His is a very small establishment and he does most of the work on his products himself, or so I understand. So, no, they are not "custom" in the same sense that Randall Knives are not "custom", I suppose, but they are very much a quality product. I am curious as to what you would deem swords by "Tinker" Pearce or Angus Trim to be. Both make them largely by hand (well, Angus Trim uses a CAD-CAM machine to make his blades and then finishes them by hand) but do make them to a list of established designs. I understand that both will customize their swords for a fee.
The pricing that you are quoting for antique swords leaves me a bit puzzled, as I have never seen a real antique version of anything like what I am talking about that is available for anything less than a figure well into the thousands. Perhaps, if we are considering surplussed British (or other) army sabers or what ever, then we could find antiques with the price at what you are thinking.
Bithabus, I would certainly count the Lutel swords as production, but I am not so certain about Patrick Barta. His is a very small establishment and he does most of the work on his products himself, or so I understand. So, no, they are not "custom" in the same sense that Randall Knives are not "custom", I suppose, but they are very much a quality product. I am curious as to what you would deem swords by "Tinker" Pearce or Angus Trim to be. Both make them largely by hand (well, Angus Trim uses a CAD-CAM machine to make his blades and then finishes them by hand) but do make them to a list of established designs. I understand that both will customize their swords for a fee.
The pricing that you are quoting for antique swords leaves me a bit puzzled, as I have never seen a real antique version of anything like what I am talking about that is available for anything less than a figure well into the thousands. Perhaps, if we are considering surplussed British (or other) army sabers or what ever, then we could find antiques with the price at what you are thinking.
I'm not talking about schianovas or rapiers to be sure, but I'm not BSing about prices, either. But to hell with it, not that interested in playing the game of defending myself. I'll post some photos of real deal carried by French horsemen or Scottish infantry or British navy, all of which I mentioned above. You can believe me or not, I frankly don't care.
Ark
Ark
Arkhavain, I do not doubt that you can obtain old 19th Century and early 20th Century military issue items that have been surplussed for some surprisingly good prices if youu look around for them. I suspect that all of us have seen such items at one time or another. But that is very different from acquiring a genuine 12th Century broadsword, for instance, or the wootz damascus sword that a friend of mine had that was from the 9th Century CE and that he would flex so that the tip of the blade would touch the pommel. These do not sell for the prices that you were quoting and if anyone wants a reproduction of such an item, that person must find a modern maker of such. It is for that person that companies such as Lutel and TEMPL, as well as Albion, Armour Class, and many others exist.
If you want a sword for chopping at things, by all means, buy a surplussed military piece. You probably cannot find better quality and durability for the money. But, if you want a sword to fit a particular niche, be it practicing specific martial arts or re-enacting a specific historical period, then you will more than likely need to engage one of the suppliers of historical reproductions.
If you want a sword for chopping at things, by all means, buy a surplussed military piece. You probably cannot find better quality and durability for the money. But, if you want a sword to fit a particular niche, be it practicing specific martial arts or re-enacting a specific historical period, then you will more than likely need to engage one of the suppliers of historical reproductions.
Angus Trim sword are production swords. They might be well-made production swords, but they are not one of a kind. I was quoting prices suggested by Arkhavain in his post:
I agree that antique sword of other (less recent) periods would be far more expensive.
.
I agree that antique sword of other (less recent) periods would be far more expensive.
FullerH said:
Actually, I do historic reinactments. That baskethilt I mentioned I use, albeit it for a slightly earlier time (pre Culloden). It's blade was not surplussed military as such arms were privately purchased by low and highlanders of the time. Mine, as a matter of fact, is used for reinacting lowlanders in Midlothian. The grip is wood and rather smooth. There is no consensus about this blade whether or not it had any kind of material on it or if that is how it was made. Yet, the basket is in welded-pieces and the whole thing is remarkably balanced not that much different from a schianova.
Now, I could not even approach the cost of medieval period for an original blade, and if I could, I would not fight with the blade in any case as I would not wish to destroy history. I do not fight with my baskethilt for that reason and for that kind of martial combat, I have no problem with folks buying reproductions.
Yet, back to the surplussed military swords. There is nothing inherently wrong with the concept. Certainly there were poor designs out there. It seemed the closer to the 20th century, the worse the designs became in an attempt to make them better (and more universal). Yet, the Cuirassier's sword carried at the ending of the 18th and beginning of the 19th centuries would be much different. A mounted heavy cavalry charge against musketry was very effective and very deadly, as "outdated" as swords were supposed to be. Heavy cavalry is itself martial. It is in no way inferior to a one-on-one duel or other "fencing" styles, the term used loosely of course. Indeed, the light-cavalry saber-style combat is neither. These were styles used in their day, and mounted combat goes back almost as long as pedestrian styles.
Now, to modern martial combat. There is no such thing. Unless one of the participants is going to die (or both, as was not that uncommon), it is all pretend anyway. Even though one might develop the skill and ability to rival or exceed that which was ever practiced on any battlefield, be it on grand scale with many combatants or in the mano-y-mano duel in some field or alleyway, one is never truly going to practice it (save for places like Ruwanda where millions were killed with such rudimentary weapons as machetes). That is good, of course, and this is not meant to belittle those who practice long and develop superb fighting abilitites. Personally, I would likely get pasted in combat by those here (though I did staff-fight in my younger days, full speed and with no puches pulled). Of course, given the situation and the fact I have a CCW liscense, I would hope that I could shoot a given person before his blade could dispatch me, but I am a pragmatist in that way. I do believe in the superiority of the .45ACP over any blade, no matter how well-built it is and how great the bearer.
So, you see, I appreciate the sword for its balance, the quality of the blade, the purpose for which it was designed, and most particularly, for its history. A $2,000 custom blade would be of no great value to me for I would always consider what real sword I could own for that sum. Good quality historical replicas of swords produced in the early 19th century would have even less value to me because I could get the real deal for the same price, or only a bit more. A replica is always a replica, fine or not, of the real, original sword. I would rather look at a blade that is stained from time and ponder where it has been than hold something that was admittedly a work of art but is younger than my dog. Swordsmiths who built swords when swords were of real, deadly use draw me more.
So, I cannot fully appreciate why one would wish to buy a modern replica when for similar prices, one could have the real deal.
Arkhavain
Now, I could not even approach the cost of medieval period for an original blade, and if I could, I would not fight with the blade in any case as I would not wish to destroy history. I do not fight with my baskethilt for that reason and for that kind of martial combat, I have no problem with folks buying reproductions.
Yet, back to the surplussed military swords. There is nothing inherently wrong with the concept. Certainly there were poor designs out there. It seemed the closer to the 20th century, the worse the designs became in an attempt to make them better (and more universal). Yet, the Cuirassier's sword carried at the ending of the 18th and beginning of the 19th centuries would be much different. A mounted heavy cavalry charge against musketry was very effective and very deadly, as "outdated" as swords were supposed to be. Heavy cavalry is itself martial. It is in no way inferior to a one-on-one duel or other "fencing" styles, the term used loosely of course. Indeed, the light-cavalry saber-style combat is neither. These were styles used in their day, and mounted combat goes back almost as long as pedestrian styles.
Now, to modern martial combat. There is no such thing. Unless one of the participants is going to die (or both, as was not that uncommon), it is all pretend anyway. Even though one might develop the skill and ability to rival or exceed that which was ever practiced on any battlefield, be it on grand scale with many combatants or in the mano-y-mano duel in some field or alleyway, one is never truly going to practice it (save for places like Ruwanda where millions were killed with such rudimentary weapons as machetes). That is good, of course, and this is not meant to belittle those who practice long and develop superb fighting abilitites. Personally, I would likely get pasted in combat by those here (though I did staff-fight in my younger days, full speed and with no puches pulled). Of course, given the situation and the fact I have a CCW liscense, I would hope that I could shoot a given person before his blade could dispatch me, but I am a pragmatist in that way. I do believe in the superiority of the .45ACP over any blade, no matter how well-built it is and how great the bearer.
So, you see, I appreciate the sword for its balance, the quality of the blade, the purpose for which it was designed, and most particularly, for its history. A $2,000 custom blade would be of no great value to me for I would always consider what real sword I could own for that sum. Good quality historical replicas of swords produced in the early 19th century would have even less value to me because I could get the real deal for the same price, or only a bit more. A replica is always a replica, fine or not, of the real, original sword. I would rather look at a blade that is stained from time and ponder where it has been than hold something that was admittedly a work of art but is younger than my dog. Swordsmiths who built swords when swords were of real, deadly use draw me more.
So, I cannot fully appreciate why one would wish to buy a modern replica when for similar prices, one could have the real deal.
Arkhavain
Thanks for your explanation, Arkhavain. I think that our difference is in the periods that we re-enact or in which we are interested. My interest pretty much ends with 1066, so any genuine blade that I might find would be impossibly expensive for me. I have no idea what a genuine Roman gladius or spatha might bring if sold, but I shudder to think of carrying one around with me at living history events. The same would be true of Viking Era swords or of Migration Era swords. It is also becoming true of the original American sabers and other swords from the War Between the States, from what I have heard. What would a good to very good condition original 1840 Dragoon Saber, "Old Wristbreaker", bring today?
But, yes, I have seen swords from the Rev. War and from the Napoleonic Era sold for more or less reasonable prices, at least the more common ones. So I can see you point of view and would probably try to carry an original were I into that sort of period. Just carrying the history that such a sword would bring with it would be worth something in and of itself.
But, yes, I have seen swords from the Rev. War and from the Napoleonic Era sold for more or less reasonable prices, at least the more common ones. So I can see you point of view and would probably try to carry an original were I into that sort of period. Just carrying the history that such a sword would bring with it would be worth something in and of itself.
It would take a second mortage in my house to buy a decent condition gladius or viking longsword!
By the way, I've no problem with folks buying custom-made swords. Personally, I refuse to buy new cars because depreciation stinks. I also don't care much for high-priced sneakers and the like. Though, I am more than certain people shake their heads and thing "poor, lost soul" every time I buy an old clay pipe that's broken to the bowl or yet another mechanical clock that doesn't work just so that I might be able to make it run. There are those who think quartz runs just fine and is a tithe the cost of an old pendulum clock that keeps marginally good time.
Ark
By the way, I've no problem with folks buying custom-made swords. Personally, I refuse to buy new cars because depreciation stinks. I also don't care much for high-priced sneakers and the like. Though, I am more than certain people shake their heads and thing "poor, lost soul" every time I buy an old clay pipe that's broken to the bowl or yet another mechanical clock that doesn't work just so that I might be able to make it run. There are those who think quartz runs just fine and is a tithe the cost of an old pendulum clock that keeps marginally good time.
Ark