why are you religious?
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Just a tenetive question gents, but what do you think about the Gnostic Gospels (sp?) and other "DaVinci Code" issues? I have some family members struggling with these things and they may be a little bogged down by them.
Another question a Rabbi asked me that I couldn't answer was: "Why didn't Jesus write anything?" He was called "Rabbi" and his disciples were initially illiterate by all reports, yet they wrote everything and he wrote nothing. Very atypical for a Rabbi.
I'll grant that I have not studied as much as I should and intend to study more. However, all it would take is one guy to cross the centerline and I'd know about Jesus than the faculty of most seminary schools. The inevitability of this knowledge has always diminished the urgency to seek it in my case.
Another question a Rabbi asked me that I couldn't answer was: "Why didn't Jesus write anything?" He was called "Rabbi" and his disciples were initially illiterate by all reports, yet they wrote everything and he wrote nothing. Very atypical for a Rabbi.
I'll grant that I have not studied as much as I should and intend to study more. However, all it would take is one guy to cross the centerline and I'd know about Jesus than the faculty of most seminary schools. The inevitability of this knowledge has always diminished the urgency to seek it in my case.
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DannyinJapan said:
I can respect that, Danny. I was forced to study Judaism and in fact to get a Bar Mitzvah. So I guess that counts, including the Hebrew etc.
These days, I try very hard not to set foot in an organized religious place and have largely succeeded.
I am interested in religion. I will tackle the Bible one of these days, and read the Bhagavad Gita about 2 years ago.
If you had asked me if I believe in God 2 or 3 years ago, I would have said "NO." But now, with a new definition of God, as everything rather than "the man upstairs", I would say "YES."
Further, I think religions are wonderful. We all have them. They are our beliefs and stories about "reality". We couldn't live without them. I observe my own behavior and when I see myself getting angry, I know that I have a story or belief that is hurting and I try to explore it as best I can.
I don't believe in any hereafter either, except in a sense that we are part of the One and that can't possibly change even after we are dead. To me, dying is like going to sleep without dreams, so I die every night. I am far less afraid of death than I ever was.
One question: can you be ethical in your dealings, without organized religion's moral compass? The answer is yes. I think you can be a deeply moral person even if you shun all organized religion.
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I was never raised to be religious. My father and mother were both church going in their youth, but by the time they were married they had had enough of the whole church thing. Also, my father had to work seven days a week when i was growing up. I grew up pretty ignorant of everything in the bible beyond what i was taught at my pre-school when i was 4 years old.
Once i started to date my fiance' i was subjected to the church aspect quite often. The whole church thing was never my cup of tea. I was so curious about God and what Jesus was really trying to tell me that I got frustrated with the community of the church. I understood WHY the church was having a browie sale to earn money, but it wasn't getting me closer to "truth", to my truth. I saw, and still see to some degree, the church atmosphere as "God 101" where people were told what the bible was saying, how it related to their lives, and that was that...See ya next week. That wasn't deep enough for me. I had no problem beleiving in God. I just wanted a little more specific assignment from Him. Jesus' teaching made sense to me, but i had a feeling that his path was a lot less structured than what the church makes it out to be. To be honest, i don't even remember the day that i found Christ. Even though i know i wasn't raised this way I feel as if I have always been this close to God....just not any form of church.
I wanted to know what my purpose was. I am still searching for that. I know my purpose is not that of baking browies for a dinner on Wednesday night. That is community, and that is very, very good. That's not me though. I'm still trying to figure out how the pattern of the evenitng clouds eclipsing the setting sun or the flight of 1,000 blackbirds migrating on the icy horizon of a chilly fall afternoon moves me to tears of joy. I'm still trying to figure out why others can't see it. You don't have to believe in "my God", because i really don't know who He is or what He wants me to do...exactly, just yet. We live in a painted canvas of absolute beauty whether it was painted by the hand of God itself or set into motion by the governing laws of science and physics. Who knows, maybe we were God's math project. Maybe He just felt like building the universe's most elaborate watch and letting it tick along it's merry little way. Would that make it any less beautiful?
Jake
Once i started to date my fiance' i was subjected to the church aspect quite often. The whole church thing was never my cup of tea. I was so curious about God and what Jesus was really trying to tell me that I got frustrated with the community of the church. I understood WHY the church was having a browie sale to earn money, but it wasn't getting me closer to "truth", to my truth. I saw, and still see to some degree, the church atmosphere as "God 101" where people were told what the bible was saying, how it related to their lives, and that was that...See ya next week. That wasn't deep enough for me. I had no problem beleiving in God. I just wanted a little more specific assignment from Him. Jesus' teaching made sense to me, but i had a feeling that his path was a lot less structured than what the church makes it out to be. To be honest, i don't even remember the day that i found Christ. Even though i know i wasn't raised this way I feel as if I have always been this close to God....just not any form of church.
I wanted to know what my purpose was. I am still searching for that. I know my purpose is not that of baking browies for a dinner on Wednesday night. That is community, and that is very, very good. That's not me though. I'm still trying to figure out how the pattern of the evenitng clouds eclipsing the setting sun or the flight of 1,000 blackbirds migrating on the icy horizon of a chilly fall afternoon moves me to tears of joy. I'm still trying to figure out why others can't see it. You don't have to believe in "my God", because i really don't know who He is or what He wants me to do...exactly, just yet. We live in a painted canvas of absolute beauty whether it was painted by the hand of God itself or set into motion by the governing laws of science and physics. Who knows, maybe we were God's math project. Maybe He just felt like building the universe's most elaborate watch and letting it tick along it's merry little way. Would that make it any less beautiful?
Jake
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I am deeply spiritual by nature and indoctrination. Can't help myself.
I can say I don't believe the version of the Bible most of us have. I can say this with a depth of knowledge- rather like Norm's- based on 20 years of extensive study. (Incidentally, it annoys the hell out of me to meet Christians who don't know what's in the Bible, but claim to believe it!)
For me, my salvation experience was realizing I no longer believed in the god that had surrounded and dominated my existence. I still had (and have!) far to go, but that was a beautiful and very happy moment. I was saved from Christianity!
Part of my upbringing was a doctrinaire tendency. I had to know. I had to be right. Now, I certainly don't want to be wrong- and there are some things I feel that are doubtlessly wrong, like mistreating our fellow man- but it's okay if I don't have all the answers. I'll find them as I go, and as long as my eyes and heart are open, I'll be okay.
Cheers!
John
I can say I don't believe the version of the Bible most of us have. I can say this with a depth of knowledge- rather like Norm's- based on 20 years of extensive study. (Incidentally, it annoys the hell out of me to meet Christians who don't know what's in the Bible, but claim to believe it!)
For me, my salvation experience was realizing I no longer believed in the god that had surrounded and dominated my existence. I still had (and have!) far to go, but that was a beautiful and very happy moment. I was saved from Christianity!
Part of my upbringing was a doctrinaire tendency. I had to know. I had to be right. Now, I certainly don't want to be wrong- and there are some things I feel that are doubtlessly wrong, like mistreating our fellow man- but it's okay if I don't have all the answers. I'll find them as I go, and as long as my eyes and heart are open, I'll be okay.
Cheers!
John
I do not know the fine connotations of "religious" or "spiritual" in the US - but I guess I am religious because I was meant to be and created like this. We were made to be seachers or seekers.
Faith is a source of strengh for me. I have not been raised in a religious way, nor do I have a date or whatever when I became "born again" in a religious way (but to stay in the metaphor - I have African and Indian friends - who do not know when they were born - and they live a life nevertheless. They are no selfignition also...) - and in the same way I guess I am "born again" but just can say it must have been at age 17-19 because I am here and a religious human being - and I know that there is God and that following him and the principles he (as father/son/holy ghost) set is the best thing for me and for the humans that have to deal with me.
Of course it is nice when my friends have the same religion and form a kind of parish - but it is not necessarily so. I do not like that sort of "newly born christian" that sees himself enlightened and feels kind of superior, wanting to be a missionary for every person he meets as soon as he meets someone new. I try to be a missionary by living the faith and the life I believe in and by answering when I am asked - and this does happen a lot of times.
But then I guess it is a very different story in the US. We do not have TV-preachers here. Religion and politics are not mixed to the extent it is in the US (as far as I can see) - and the religious landscape is not half as caleidoscopal as it is in the US. btw. it is a shame how the personel on the ground (churches, clergy etc. acts from time to time - but then they are human - and they are not perfect - like god is).
By the way - some of the English I know I know from contacts to the "torchbearer fellowship". They have Christian Centers all over the world and I visit two of them (in Austria and at the Lake Constance) from time to time.
In short I am religious because it is good for me. I am an egoist
Andreas
Faith is a source of strengh for me. I have not been raised in a religious way, nor do I have a date or whatever when I became "born again" in a religious way (but to stay in the metaphor - I have African and Indian friends - who do not know when they were born - and they live a life nevertheless. They are no selfignition also...) - and in the same way I guess I am "born again" but just can say it must have been at age 17-19 because I am here and a religious human being - and I know that there is God and that following him and the principles he (as father/son/holy ghost) set is the best thing for me and for the humans that have to deal with me.
Of course it is nice when my friends have the same religion and form a kind of parish - but it is not necessarily so. I do not like that sort of "newly born christian" that sees himself enlightened and feels kind of superior, wanting to be a missionary for every person he meets as soon as he meets someone new. I try to be a missionary by living the faith and the life I believe in and by answering when I am asked - and this does happen a lot of times.
But then I guess it is a very different story in the US. We do not have TV-preachers here. Religion and politics are not mixed to the extent it is in the US (as far as I can see) - and the religious landscape is not half as caleidoscopal as it is in the US. btw. it is a shame how the personel on the ground (churches, clergy etc. acts from time to time - but then they are human - and they are not perfect - like god is).
By the way - some of the English I know I know from contacts to the "torchbearer fellowship". They have Christian Centers all over the world and I visit two of them (in Austria and at the Lake Constance) from time to time.
In short I am religious because it is good for me. I am an egoist
Andreas
That is exactly, EXACTLY right, PanTau.
When I was an atheist I never disliked churches or religions. It seems to me from my outside view it was good for people.
I'm sorry to see so much disatisfaction with the Western Religion in this forum. Darn shame. We know what denial and rigidity are, so it is not unexpected to withdraw from that as seen in various Christian churches.
I come at this from a strange perspective. I was raised an atheist. When young I read everything I could about religion. I Ching, Lao Tse, Upanishads.... I did read the Bible but dismissed it.
When I was 30 I reread the Bible. I was stunned. Not having the background of punishment and condemnation many have experienced, I was able to see the life in this book. Much of the material was simply great, beyond understanding at a single sitting.
As a student of literature, I was also surprised where Shakespeare got a lot of his material, and in many cases, phrasing. He did not emerge from a vacumn.
There are many things in the Bible that could not have been written by the hand of man alone, but clearly show the presence of the Great Heart.
I am only sad I cannot attend church. I've tried, but it has never been best.
But I am sorry to see some apologizing for their Christian beliefs. Europe has gone that route- their numbers on these issues almost the opposite mirror of the US- they are becoming secular.
When Yvsa and Nasty and others whom I respect greatly say they are 'spiritual', (which really is a rotten word in many circles- pass out the crystals) but not 'religious', I can only conclude this is semantics.
I believe there is one Great Heart.
munk
When I was an atheist I never disliked churches or religions. It seems to me from my outside view it was good for people.
I'm sorry to see so much disatisfaction with the Western Religion in this forum. Darn shame. We know what denial and rigidity are, so it is not unexpected to withdraw from that as seen in various Christian churches.
I come at this from a strange perspective. I was raised an atheist. When young I read everything I could about religion. I Ching, Lao Tse, Upanishads.... I did read the Bible but dismissed it.
When I was 30 I reread the Bible. I was stunned. Not having the background of punishment and condemnation many have experienced, I was able to see the life in this book. Much of the material was simply great, beyond understanding at a single sitting.
As a student of literature, I was also surprised where Shakespeare got a lot of his material, and in many cases, phrasing. He did not emerge from a vacumn.
There are many things in the Bible that could not have been written by the hand of man alone, but clearly show the presence of the Great Heart.
I am only sad I cannot attend church. I've tried, but it has never been best.
But I am sorry to see some apologizing for their Christian beliefs. Europe has gone that route- their numbers on these issues almost the opposite mirror of the US- they are becoming secular.
When Yvsa and Nasty and others whom I respect greatly say they are 'spiritual', (which really is a rotten word in many circles- pass out the crystals) but not 'religious', I can only conclude this is semantics.
I believe there is one Great Heart.
munk
miguet
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New Testament gospel precepts focus on values and comportment. Paul's letters attempt to structure these precepts into logical frameworks that anticipate intellectual scrutiny. As a doctrinaire, he knew that the written word would never process out and be accepted as the outcome of an intellectual exercise alone. He constantly refers back to faith. So the buy-in is really a prolonged faith endeavor that needs to occur in a spiritual context. Otherwise, the faith endeavor can't be sustained. And therein lies the problem for many people. Our sociological indoctrination demands empiric and logical benchmarking. Once you step outside of those boundaries - you're susceptible to derision.
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DannyinJapan said:
Well, obviously, I can't answer for cognitivefun, but I studied quite earnestly, for many years. It took me a long time to realize that Christianity is not for me, and it's not for lack of trying.
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Paul also warnd against receiving any other Gospel, from whatever source, than the one he had delivered to the people.
Spectre, I respect your efforts to examine the scriptures. I don't agree with your conclusion, but I respect the effort you made.
Pan Tau and Munk, great stuff. Sorry only time for soundbites here...
Tom
Spectre, I respect your efforts to examine the scriptures. I don't agree with your conclusion, but I respect the effort you made.
Pan Tau and Munk, great stuff. Sorry only time for soundbites here...
Tom
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For me God isn't a He or She or of Gender of any kind or sort and especially Not an old white haired personage sporting a long white beard.
To me God is Spirit and can't be seen but can be felt and when we stop and pay attention God is always present.
When people, whether Christian or Pseudo-Christian, quote the Bible they are assuming that everyone subscribes too what is written therein and believes it but that isn't true at all.
I couldn't care less what the New Testament says as I don't believe in it as a religious text, however it is a wonderful history book.
Now the Old Testament is different as it does describe some aspects of God and God's mysteries.
In many ways the old Jewish form of worship with the Fire, Water, and Sacrifice is very similar too the Lakota Sweatlodge way according to a Lakota Holy Man that I am aquainted with.
And the way he describes the comparrisons it makes perfect sense.
I like the Old Testament and I feel a kinship with the Jewish people. From what I know and can tell our, my, beliefs are closer too their's than any other I know of.
We ndns sometimes call God "The Great Mystery" simply because we cannot even begin too understand the First Source and Center, or as Munk calls it, the Great Heart.
Too me the prophets of the Old Testament were sent too help the people understand the Great Mystery as the Pale One was sent too us and Buffalo Calf Woman was sent too the Sioux for want of a better word.
The biggest fault I find with the prophets is that they likened God as a father figure. Had they of been matriarchial like the Cherokee then they would have likened God as a mother figure.
The fact that they did refer too God as a father figure is too me a source of a lot of misunderstanding as to what God is and does.
One of my biggest problems with Christianity is that they took the religion OF Jesus and made it into a religion About Jesus.
When I was younger I thought very seriously about converting to Judaism.
I could follow the religion of Jesus easily as I think and feel it most closely resembles what I personally believe anyway, I just cannot follow the religion about Jesus.
To me God is Spirit and can't be seen but can be felt and when we stop and pay attention God is always present.
When people, whether Christian or Pseudo-Christian, quote the Bible they are assuming that everyone subscribes too what is written therein and believes it but that isn't true at all.
I couldn't care less what the New Testament says as I don't believe in it as a religious text, however it is a wonderful history book.
Now the Old Testament is different as it does describe some aspects of God and God's mysteries.
In many ways the old Jewish form of worship with the Fire, Water, and Sacrifice is very similar too the Lakota Sweatlodge way according to a Lakota Holy Man that I am aquainted with.
And the way he describes the comparrisons it makes perfect sense.
I like the Old Testament and I feel a kinship with the Jewish people. From what I know and can tell our, my, beliefs are closer too their's than any other I know of.
We ndns sometimes call God "The Great Mystery" simply because we cannot even begin too understand the First Source and Center, or as Munk calls it, the Great Heart.
Too me the prophets of the Old Testament were sent too help the people understand the Great Mystery as the Pale One was sent too us and Buffalo Calf Woman was sent too the Sioux for want of a better word.
The biggest fault I find with the prophets is that they likened God as a father figure. Had they of been matriarchial like the Cherokee then they would have likened God as a mother figure.
The fact that they did refer too God as a father figure is too me a source of a lot of misunderstanding as to what God is and does.
One of my biggest problems with Christianity is that they took the religion OF Jesus and made it into a religion About Jesus.
When I was younger I thought very seriously about converting to Judaism.
I could follow the religion of Jesus easily as I think and feel it most closely resembles what I personally believe anyway, I just cannot follow the religion about Jesus.
We narrowly avoided the mystical ramblings of a Cherokee Jew!
As I knew, you are a religious person, Yvsa. Call it spiritual or holy or what.
Yvsa, I make no decisions about God. I try, anyway. Men naturally invent and respond to Patriarchs. Even if He was not one men would see Him as such.
I guess this is why I cannot be a true Christian. I don't sweat the details.
I really don't want to be a 'spiritualist', but I'm afraid my faith is exactly that; I Believe!!!
I don't know the how or why. I dont know man or woman or both or neither. I don't know afterlife. I just believe.
>>>>>>>>>
Josh, I'm betting you didn't throw out the Proverbs of the Bible when you decided it was not for you.
munk
As I knew, you are a religious person, Yvsa. Call it spiritual or holy or what.
Yvsa, I make no decisions about God. I try, anyway. Men naturally invent and respond to Patriarchs. Even if He was not one men would see Him as such.
I guess this is why I cannot be a true Christian. I don't sweat the details.
I really don't want to be a 'spiritualist', but I'm afraid my faith is exactly that; I Believe!!!
I don't know the how or why. I dont know man or woman or both or neither. I don't know afterlife. I just believe.
>>>>>>>>>
Josh, I'm betting you didn't throw out the Proverbs of the Bible when you decided it was not for you.
munk
Hello,
I'll try to jump in too. My situation is rather nonstandart from one point of view. I guess I am the only member here and a catholic priest at the same time.
There are about 4 % "practicing" christians here in Czech Repubic. This situation is real challenge. I cannot sell religion. Everytime I talk with people during various occasions like weddings, funerals, baptisms, preparations for the above, I try my best to involve both reason and faith. I went through tis myself. I am rather technically and logicaly oriented person and I do not think faith is against logical mind. I am sorry not to be able to express myself more widely in english.
Bad reputation of churches comes from the fact people in church mix religion and politics often. I know - when one believes in God, it makes him act in certain way even in politics. That is OK. But there is allways temptation to misuse religion for political and/or other profit. Lot of political leaders did/do that. In fact they take church and faith as hostage. Jesus strictly denied it. He too was temped to catch people and force them the easy way. He always escaped when they wanted to proclaim him as political messiah. How many times he ask ed people not to tell anybody when he did some good to them.
People in church suffer from "humanity". They make sins but there are also always many who remained humble and true. I think about one of Jesus parables that says his kingdom is like small seed but full of strenght. It is on every person to find the strenght and let it grow in himself.
The only choice for christian IMHO is to be spiritual christian. Today's church suffers from people who just pretend to be christians going to church on Sundays but without any connection to everyday life. Again, it is much less problem here in my country and I am glad for this.
One last thing. Faith is firstly a gift and this gift comes to people who realy want it. It can also be lost.
Yvsa, have you read a little book by Forrest Carter "The Education Of Little Tree" ? Just wondering. I love the book and the author.
cosco
I'll try to jump in too. My situation is rather nonstandart from one point of view. I guess I am the only member here and a catholic priest at the same time.
There are about 4 % "practicing" christians here in Czech Repubic. This situation is real challenge. I cannot sell religion. Everytime I talk with people during various occasions like weddings, funerals, baptisms, preparations for the above, I try my best to involve both reason and faith. I went through tis myself. I am rather technically and logicaly oriented person and I do not think faith is against logical mind. I am sorry not to be able to express myself more widely in english.
Bad reputation of churches comes from the fact people in church mix religion and politics often. I know - when one believes in God, it makes him act in certain way even in politics. That is OK. But there is allways temptation to misuse religion for political and/or other profit. Lot of political leaders did/do that. In fact they take church and faith as hostage. Jesus strictly denied it. He too was temped to catch people and force them the easy way. He always escaped when they wanted to proclaim him as political messiah. How many times he ask ed people not to tell anybody when he did some good to them.
People in church suffer from "humanity". They make sins but there are also always many who remained humble and true. I think about one of Jesus parables that says his kingdom is like small seed but full of strenght. It is on every person to find the strenght and let it grow in himself.
The only choice for christian IMHO is to be spiritual christian. Today's church suffers from people who just pretend to be christians going to church on Sundays but without any connection to everyday life. Again, it is much less problem here in my country and I am glad for this.
One last thing. Faith is firstly a gift and this gift comes to people who realy want it. It can also be lost.
Yvsa, have you read a little book by Forrest Carter "The Education Of Little Tree" ? Just wondering. I love the book and the author.
cosco
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I'm not saying there's nothing of worth in the Bible, just that it's not for me. I tried for a long time, and I just don't get that feeling that Christians seem to get from it. I guess in the final analysis, I was not able to make the leap of faith. I was feeling kinda guilty about it for a while, but these past few months the guilt has lifted, and I feel better than I have in a long time.
Forrest Carter? You bet- all of him I could find, including the books later made into the Josey Wales movie.
What about, Man who killed the Deer... I think Frank Waters
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't get the feeling, either Josh. But I used to read the Bible a lot and will return. I married a Christian. My children go to church. And I pray to God.
munk
What about, Man who killed the Deer... I think Frank Waters
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't get the feeling, either Josh. But I used to read the Bible a lot and will return. I married a Christian. My children go to church. And I pray to God.
munk
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Big stink about Forrest Carter being a white supremist. Do a search online.
Munk--I don't have kids, I didn't marry a Christian, and I don't pray to god Doesn't mean those things don't work for other folks, and in fact, I'm glad if others find comfort in Christianity. Just not for me.
Munk--I don't have kids, I didn't marry a Christian, and I don't pray to god
Doesn't mean those things don't work for other folks, and in fact, I'm glad if others find comfort in Christianity. Just not for me. munk,I just realized your sigline and it made my evening.
I have to find the Frank Waters's book somewhere.
The only other book by Carter I ever read was about Geronimo leading his tribe to Sierra Madre. I do not know the english title. I love this one too.
cosco
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