Why does every one hate 440c stainless steel so much ?

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I love 440C, my schanz designed böker plus dagger is sharp as a fiddle despite being like 7mm thick
But using it in machete form is just stupid, 1095 is a bit too... ''hardenable'' for that, let alone stainless with the same carbon
 
It is true, my knee jerk is to look askance at 440C ... but my big Classic 3000 green bone lockback and several GECs are amongst my favourite and most used pieces. So I should review my bigotries, I guess :lol:
 
440C has been used in a number of good knives. An older Gerber folding knife made in USA was nice, easy to sharpen and did not rust.
 
440C is fine. If a blade just has "440" stamped on it, it's usually 440A and that stuff sucks. A lot of my hick buddies think Pakistani 440A is "the mark of quality".
 
I really likemy old Buck's with 440C, so much that I look for them. I have never felt under served by a 440C blade.
Bob
 
AntDog said:
440C is fine. If a blade just has "440" stamped on it, it's usually 440A and that stuff sucks. A lot of my hick buddies think Pakistani 440A is "the mark of quality".
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Use 440a with a proper heat treat it's completely different compared to those just stamped 440 on some random blade with a bad heat treat. Not spectacular in any major way but far better than people give it credit for.
 
Bob6794 said:
Use 440a with a proper heat treat it's completely different compared to those just stamped 440 on some random blade with a bad heat treat. Not spectacular in any major way but far better than people give it credit for.
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that last quote just about sums it up perfectly... way better than people give it credit for. Every "knife guy" i run into in my travels that sees me using my work blade has asked me what steel it is and when i tell them 440c there is always the "really?" or "there are way better steels out there... as if i don't know whats out there after making knives for 25 years now, lol. 440c has done more than i ever expected of it and I'd never feel like i had "not enough knife" if it was made with it by a decent maker (or company) and had a decent heat treat.
 
I think it is that many poorly made knives have been made and sold with a "440" stamp that soured peoples perception of 440C. IIRC, 440C was the super steel in the 80s and still a great steel today. I have and use many knives in 440C.
 
carbonsteelfan said:
Sounds like your grandfather appreciates good steels. :thumbup: :cool: :thumbup:
Yeah ; he was in the navy back until the 1980s. He told me why he is so fond of 440c . Until he joined the navy he always used 1095 carbon steel hunting knives and folders. After joining the navy he realized that as much as he likes it ; carbon steel.is not a good choice in a wet environment. Then he was introduced to 440c which back in the 70s was a miracle steel. He never quite used any other stainless steel. He has some pretty picky tastes.
For ease of sharpening he used to prefer 1095 ( now days its A2)
For edge holding he likes D2
For corrosion resistance its 440c.
Till now he doesn't own a folder in A2 so originally l wanted to gift him an A2 folding knife but l don't think.any exist. So l decided to go.for ya 440c knife.


Big Mike
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Very corrosion resistant for sure. That would be one of its strong points, and may be good for certain applications.

Unfortunately a lot of knives in the past have been labelled as 440C, when they were only 440A.
 
2Dead said:
I think it is that many poorly made knives have been made and sold with a "440" stamp that soured peoples perception of 440C. IIRC, 440C was the super steel in the 80s and still a great steel today. I have and use many knives in 440C.
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Exactly!
 
I hate the whole 440 series. I don't know that I have ever had 440 that I liked. The problem is that I like very acute razor edges and 440 alloys have too much chromium and large carbide lumps. The only way to get a half-way decent edge (from my perspective) on most 440 blades is to finish off honing at a relatively obtuse 20 degrees per side. My preference is under 12 degrees per side. It helps to use diamond hones and almost anything can achieve an acute razor edge if you strop it with sub-micron diamond paste, but gee that's a lot of work. The AUS series of alloys has less chrome and adds vanadium to the mix. That gives you more of a razor alloy.

Anyway you don't notice the difference as much if you always finish your honing at a more obtuse angle than I have always used. I have resigned myself to actually using a Sharpmaker at the 15 or 20 degree slots to finish cheap stainless edges. It works better than I gave it credit for. I just do all of my prior honing work at my preferred low angle and finish with a few light strokes at the (shudder) obtuse 15/20 degree angles. This actually gives sharper edges than when I try and force the alloy to a more acute apex than it naturally wants to support.
 
I should make a qualification from my prior comments. Cryo treated 440 stainless may be a bit better than average for grain refinement. Cutco kitchen knives are supposed to be cryo treated 440 stainless and they take a finer edge than say Chicago Cutlery 440A.
 
And there is also this to muse about.... not everything labeled 440A, 440B or 440C is REALLY 440 anything.

Many folks who bitch about how bad the steels are, have encountered cheap knives made in China, Pakistan, India, or where ever that were made with some unknown mystery steel and then stamped with a number to make it sell, not because that was the steel it from which it was made.

Also. mistakes and/or fraud can occur.
Example:
A few of years ago, I bought a dive knife that according to the literature was 420J2, a very good dive knife material, made in Japan and sold under a well known US dive equipment manufacturer's name.

After a couple of dives in FRESH water, and treating the knife in the exact same post-dive cleanup rituals that I had used for 30+ years, I put the equipment away. When I went to use the gear a week later, a pre-dive check revealed that the "stainless steel" had rusted almost as badly as if it had been some A36 mild steel,of the project type found at Woes' or Foam Lepot.

In the long run, it turned out someone had mislabeled/misrepresented some steel as 420J2 to the manufacturer who in turn made the knives and shipped then to the company. No one ever admitted as to whether it was a mistake or fraud.

So someone complaining about a particular type of steel may have a legitimate complaint about the quality of the steel in a particular knife labeled as being made of steel type "X", when the label is wrong.
 
I think it's interesting that a lot of folks here add the caveat 'if properly heat treated it's good'. Isn't this true with pretty much any steel used for a blade? If it's a reputable maker, I wouldn't worry about it. I like 440c myself.
 
Quote Originally Posted by 2Dead View Post
I think it is that many poorly made knives have been made and sold with a "440" stamp that soured peoples perception of 440C. IIRC, 440C was the super steel in the 80s and still a great steel today. I have and use many knives in 440C.
Exactly!
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I still dispute this. It was never considered "super" steel anything. It was a premium steel used by Buck, Gerber, and lots of custom makers trying to make a living. The first "super" steel as it was called was 154cm, then ATS 34. Then came 440V/S60V ,S90V, then S30V.

When makers did upgrades they often went tool steels with coatings. The First "super steel" "sprints" were things like M2 Gerber knives, Vascowear Gerbers, etc. Then came upgraded steels like BG42 which Schrade tried, Case, Boker, etc. I'm notsure when Buck began using BG42.

Camillus began running D2, 154cm, even alloys like Talonite.Those were upgrades. we didn't even use the term back then.

440C remains a premium steel IMO, but it was never considered a "super steel". That term never even came into usage until the late 80's, early 90's best I can recall.
 
I deburred 22 counter sunk hole in some 416 series stainless steel with a Buck 110 (440c blade). The 440c held up well. Still sharp afterwards.

I've got a an a couple of knives in 440c that are some of my favorites. Recently got myself a Spyderco Cat in 440C.

Ric
 
440-C is a very good cutlery steel and a lot of custom knife makers were using it in the 1970s. It is in the same league as ATS-34, CM-154 and AUS-8. I doubt that anyone can tell the difference from actual use. I would like to see a double bind test to prove me wrong.

The whole steel snobbery thing seems to come from a mass fear of sharpening knives. Since there has yet to be a blade material that can provide a good working edge for the life of the knife, they all need to be sharpened. So the entire debate over steel types probably comes down to whether you sharpen your knife after every 30 minutes, vs. once every 40 minutes, of hard use.

n2s
 
I have a bunch of kitchen knives that I've made over the past decade or so that I've had heat treated by Paul Bos, or at least the facility he was/is in charge of, at Buck Knives. All of them 440C.

They are all wonderful knives. Easy to touch up and put back to work.
But if you let them get dull, your best bet is a diamond stone.

I know lots of folks who love high end Japanese knives, and they can spend an hour a week returning one or two of their favorite high carbon steels back to sharper than a straight razor on their hundred dollar Japanese water stones.
That being said, 440C isn't for them in that application.

It's is very much a snobbery thing, but that does not make 440C a bad steel.
 
I would like to see a double bind test to prove me wrong.
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You haven't been proven right yet. :)

The whole steel snobbery thing seems to come from a mass fear of sharpening knives. Since there has yet to be a blade material that can provide a good working edge for the life of the knife, they all need to be sharpened. So the entire debate over steel types probably comes down to whether you sharpen your knife after every 30 minutes, vs. once every 40 minutes, of hard use.
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Steel "snobbery"? Wanting better performance makes people snobs? Fear of sharpening knives is something that exists. IMO though it is something people new to the hobby may feel but the majority of the forum crowd is made up of more experienced types who know what they want out of a knife. They don't post as many threads asking "I have $50." " What knife should I buy?". It may seem like people are know nothings who are scared of sharpening but I see the opposite. There are lots of very experienced, intelligent and savvy knife buyers, dealers and makers here with a smattering of engineers and metallurgist types. The industry and knife makers represent some of the cream of the industry and private knife making profession.
 
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