Why no Victorinox Steel Upgrade?

Luddite is a subjective term, so probably not the best description of resistors to change. My observations on the edge retention of 189 vs 1.4110 are confirmed by CATRA and Ankerson, so they are objective enough for me.
I already have SAK clones with ZDP-189 blades, but they are made in Japan. I wish the Swiss could catch up.
 
The assumption is that those who argue against Victorinox changing steels do so because they are resistant to change. That is not my reason. Change bothers me no more than the average human.

I do not question that modern steels offer much better edge retention. This is an objective fact.

Subjectivity comes in when one assumes that better edge retention is objectively “better” overall. This simply isn’t the case.

I don’t use pocket knives to cut cardboard or perform similar tasks that favor abrasion resistance, so virtual immunity from corrosion and the ability to touch an edge up quickly are “better” qualities for me.
 
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tiguy7 said:
I don't understand the Luddites who say they don't want better tools.
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Perhaps I misunderstand others, but I don't think anyone here wouldn't want better tools nor oppose Victorinox if they were to start using better materials (steel, nylon scales, etc.) **and not jack-up their prices**! That was not the question, however; the question was why don't they? Everything I said, and believe many are responded, pertains to that question.

Frailer said:
"better" is a subjective term.
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Very true... It is subjective because better can only be defined relative to something else for *a given intended use*.
 
The average SAK user, and by that I mean their target market, NOT us knife knuts, would not cheer for a steel upgrade. They would vote with their wallets and switch over to cheaper Chinese knock offs of the SAK instead of paying the extra costs incurred by buying and working higher end steels.

Face it people, Victorinox doesn't care about the 0.01% of the market we represent. They already have a pretty good handle on the rest of the market. Why would they risk that to go for that little bit more?
 
The more important question is .... why anyone gets a thrill up their leg over Victorinox products at all anymore when there are so many (much, much) better options.
 
Centuriator said:
The more important question is .... why anyone gets a thrill up their leg over Victorinox products at all anymore when there are so many (much, much) better options.
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Better for what? Is the single-bladed folder with S110V or CTS-XHP blade going to turn screws, open cans, file nails, or accomplish light prying better than a basic SAK? Even in the realm of pliers-based multi-tools, I much prefer my Victorinox Spirit over the several Leatherman tools I used to carry over the course of several years.

Another thing about pliers-based multi-tools: I have never heard of a Victorinox unit breaking. I have heard of multi-tools made by Gerber, Leatherman, and SOG occasionally cracking and breaking at the pliers pivot areas.

Victorinox products might not be the latest, sexiest new kids on the block, but they work very well for what they were intended for. And they are user-friendly and affordable, while having probably the most consistent quality control of any cutlery manufacturer. Their products have proven themselves to me over nearly 40 years. I for one don’t need any thrills out of them; they’re simply reliable.

Jim
 
Centuriator said:
The more important question is .... why anyone gets a thrill up their leg over Victorinox products at all anymore when there are so many (much, much) better options.
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Perhaps we’re not very bright.

Or perhaps we’re simply not informed or sophisticated enough to understand the much, *much* better options available to us.

We deserve pity, not scorn.
 
Frailer said:
The assumption is that those who argue against Victorinox changing steels do so because they are resistant to change. That is not my reason. Change bothers me no more than the average human.

I do not question that modern steels offer much better edge retention. This is an objective fact.

Subjectivity comes in when one assumes that better edge retention is objectively “better” overall. This simply isn’t the case.

I don’t use pocket knifes to cut cardboard or perform similar tasks that favor abrasion resistance, so virtual immunity from corrosion and the ability to touch an edge up quickly are “better” qualities for me.
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Frailer nails it (for me at least). I have never had a fancy steel pocket knife so maybe I don't know what I am missing. I use my Swiss Army Knife for day to day real world tasks, not to cut through a tank. If I have to cut up cardboard I grab a Stanley utility knife with replaceable blades. I can appreciate Spydercos, Benchmades, etc. but I don't need them for what I use a knife for. I like the steel on my Swiss army knife and wouldn't change a thing. I think the Swiss are ahead of the curve and don't need to play catch up at all.
 
I am not saying, "Throw out the 1.4100." I am saying that with very little effort Victorinox could offer me a premium blade, and I would vote with my wallet. This ain't rocket surgery. What's the yank? One more option from the largest knife maker in the world? Everyone is tiptoeing around, supposing that their 50 cents per pound steel will disappear. Not gonna happen.
Their are dozens of superior steels available that some users don't mind paying for. Just give us the choice.image.jpeg
 
tiguy7 said:
I am not saying, "Throw out the 1.4100." I am saying that with very little effort Victorinox could offer me a premium blade..
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Who's saying it's little effort? Sure small company or knifemaker can take another slab of steel and work with it.
Victorinox is a big company, so they'd have to rearrange a lot of things (warehouse, logistics, production etc) to make it work. On top of that the production lines would have to clear out for the other steel and halting the regular production. Adding another production line for other steel would be insane investment. Also machining harder/different steels is not necessarily possible or cost efficient in their perspective.

tiguy7 said:
..and I would vote with my wallet.
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Yes, but most wouldn't (of the customer base).
 
My guess is the vast majority of Victorinox users are outside North America, and the Americas in general, don't have the diamond or SiC stones necessary to sharpen the "super steels" available at an affordable price (if at all), the steel Victorinox (and Opinel, and MAM, and ...) uses now, works just fine for the vast majority of their customers around the world, including the ones in North America.
 
tiguy7 said:
View attachment 1425076 Any company that is nimble enough to offer Damascus blades should be able to offer higher quality plain blades (not my pic).
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Were those available in all markets, or just the home market, US, possibly Canada, and other affluent markets? Were/are they standard production, or a SFO/Limited Edition? Were they made in-house, or under contract by another cutlery firm? How much extra did that one blade add to the cost? Double?...Triple? the base price?
Even with the standard steel, even a Huntsman/Field Master is way beyond what my budget can cover after rent, and room n' board each month, even without getting the other things I need to survive, like a few two liters of generic Mtn. Dew, and a couple off brand tubes of chew, maybe some instant coffee and powdered creamer every couple of months ...
For me, "just"/"only" $20 USD is a lot for a knife.

If someone doesn't like whatever Victorinox's standard blade steel is, no one that I am aware of, is forcing them to purchase a SAK, or any other knife, come to that.

Victorinox sells millions of knives around the world every year. I have a feeling they know their market and what they're doing. :)
 
afishhunter said:
...How much extra did that one blade add to the cost? Double?...Triple? the base price?
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The answer is the damasteel blade increased the base price roughly tenfold.

If someone doesn't like whatever Victorinox's standard blade steel is, no one that I am aware of, is forcing them to purchase a SAK, or any other knife, come to that.
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Exactly.

Unfortunately the rapid influx of new folks into the “knife culture,” combined with the proliferation of Internet forums and YouTube reviewers extolling modern “supersteels” as *objectively* better (apparently many of them work in places with tiny cardboard recycling bins that have them slashing a *lot* cardboard) have created echo chambers filled with folks who believe their opinion to be the most correct one.

For the record, I have no ill will toward anyone in the hobby, nor do I begrudge them their search for the ideal knife or best-formulated steel for their needs. I sincerely wish them all the best.

I just wish they’d stop trying to make me agree with them.
 
Frailer said:
The answer is the damasteel blade increased the base price roughly tenfold.



Exactly.

Unfortunately the rapid influx of new folks into the “knife culture,” combined with the proliferation of Internet forums and YouTube reviewers extolling modern “supersteels” as *objectively* better (apparently many of them work in places with tiny cardboard recycling bins that have them slashing a *lot* cardboard) have created echo chambers filled with folks who believe their opinion to be the most correct one.

For the record, I have no ill will toward anyone in the hobby, nor do I begrudge them their search for the ideal knife or best-formulated steel for their needs. I sincerely wish them all the best.

I just wish they’d stop trying to make me agree with them.
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When I bought my Super Tinker there was a lady in the aisle looking at multitools and she asked me what I thought. I asked her what her needs were and she said she needed scissors, well 2 Super Tinkers were sold that day. Everybody has different needs like you said Frailer. I appreciate your perspective because I know you have that nice Chris Reeve Sebenza but you still carry your Swiss Army Compact.
 
So some folks are saying "make Vic knives in fancy steel". And the some other folks are saying "they already use fancy steel; Damasteel" to which the just say "meh".

I have a solution. Vic should make a knife where every blade and tool is a different super steel.

4V scissors, M4 bottle opener, Elmax parcel hook, CTS-XHP pen blade, VG10 tweezers, Maxamet can opener, M390 corkscrew.

That way for sure you'll have massive bragging rights on your knife.
 
afishhunter said:
My guess is the vast majority of Victorinox users are outside North America, and the Americas in general, don't have the diamond or SiC stones necessary to sharpen the "super steels" available at an affordable price (if at all), the steel Victorinox (and Opinel, and MAM, and ...) uses now, works just fine for the vast majority of their customers around the world, including the ones in North America.
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ZDP-189 sharpens up just fine on Al2O3 stones. Corundum stones are cheap and widely available. Even if your guess that most users are outside of North America is correct, that doesn’t mean that North Americans can’t go to ACE Hardware and get an Al2O3 stone. If they do, they will find out that said stone will vastly improve their ability to sharpen all of their stainless steel knives.
 
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