Why so much focus on Katanas?

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benjammin

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Aug 23, 2005
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I always considered a good quality sabre to be an effective melee tool. Especially the more modern designs. Given that armor is fairly non-existent these days, I would think a single handed implement with a suitable guard would be preferable in most cases.

When was the last time a sword of any type was used at least marginally in battle (major conflict)? I'm thinking it's been at least 100 years now.
 
The Katana is only one excellent sword design. You are correct.
 
100 years may be a bit too long, as many Japanese utilized their swords during WW2, some successfully killed folks too. Think Banzai charge, and close quarters all out dust up.

IMO the katana fascination has to due with several things-

1- The Samurai were at one time time well disciplined single minded and very formidable.

2- Assorted legends and mythical attributes have elevated anything Katana to the realm of the sword of heaven.

3- Properly utilized, they are very efficient cutters.

4- Traditional crafting techniques, you gotta respect a traditionally forged Katana on the basis of the craftmanship alone.

5- Ninjas are bad a$$es, and who doesn't want to give the appearance of a bad a$$

Chuck
 
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The Ninja's used a Ninja-to sword, right?
The Katana just looks bad-azz too.
 
Lycosa said:
The Ninja's used a Ninja-to sword, right?
Click to expand...

The famed "ninjato" is actually an invention of Hollywood. There has been no historical evidence that ninjas used a straight, chisel-tip sword.

That said, Japanese history DOES have a straight, chisel-tip sword. I forget the exact term for it, but it was a type of Tachi (a sword worn edge down, as oppose to the Katana which is worn edge up). This style of Tachi was actually brought over from mainland China, prior to Japan developing it's own style of swordcraft.
In a sense, it's kind of like step-1 in the evolution of the Japanese Katana as we know it today.
 
Lycosa said:
The Ninja's used a Ninja-to sword, right?
The Katana just looks bad-azz too.
Click to expand...

To the majority of the sweaty uninformed masses, the terms Ninja and Samurai are pretty much interchangeable, as to what sword each uses, they would look at a Katana and say "YEP"

Chuck
 
HolyRoller said:
The famed "ninjato" is actually an invention of Hollywood. There has been no historical evidence that ninjas used a straight, chisel-tip sword.

That said, Japanese history DOES have a straight, chisel-tip sword. I forget the exact term for it, but it was a type of Tachi (a sword worn edge down, as oppose to the Katana which is worn edge up). This style of Tachi was actually brought over from mainland China, prior to Japan developing it's own style of swordcraft.
In a sense, it's kind of like step-1 in the evolution of the Japanese Katana as we know it today.
Click to expand...

You're thinking of a chokuto, which would have been a museum item even back in the time of the ninja. Furthermore, the myth that ninja came from the peasant classes, etc. is equally false. Ninja were samurai, born to the samurai caste, and were a readily accepted part of the military of the times. They functioned much like special forces today--most often times they did recon work, not assassination as it is often made out to be. Still crazy dangerous though!

Personally I would rather have a longsword than a katana due to the more versatile design and better ability to be swung one-handed during an extension. A Napoleonic-era saber or hanger would be equally excellent. I have a bit of a soft spot for the 1803 British Infantry saber. :)
 
I think there's a few reasons.

The sword and it's fittings tend to be a work of art as a whole, and individualy.
I think part of the mythos is due to the samurai. Their philosophy-budo, their single minded dedication and skill with the sword. Similar to a sniper and his rifle.
 
chuckinohio said:
100 years may be a bit too long, as many Japanese utilized their swords during WW2, some successfully killed folks too. Think Banzai charge, and close quarters all out dust up.
Click to expand...

Yep, and the Chinese used dadao in the same era. The Battle of the Great Wall, for example. That's another blade you don't wanna get hit with. :eek:

I think you pretty much nailed most of the reasons behind the "katana-cult". Now, let us go forth on the web, and see how many D&D nerds we can find whose characters wield "dual katanas" in a distinctly non-Japanese fantasy setting. :confused:
 
There was also a Calvary charge with sabers against Hitlers blitzkrieg..... Incredible effort but a bit one sided.
 
HolyRoller said:
The famed "ninjato" is actually an invention of Hollywood. There has been no historical evidence that ninjas used a straight, chisel-tip sword.

That said, Japanese history DOES have a straight, chisel-tip sword. I forget the exact term for it, but it was a type of Tachi (a sword worn edge down, as oppose to the Katana which is worn edge up). This style of Tachi was actually brought over from mainland China, prior to Japan developing it's own style of swordcraft.
In a sense, it's kind of like step-1 in the evolution of the Japanese Katana as we know it today.
Click to expand...


Early Japanese..... Chinese Tang Dynasty (~618-907 AD ) chisel tip sword dated to around the 9th century.

ridgedtang2.jpg
 
Cool, Bors. Thanks.
So...these swords, straight and chisel, are for real.
 
Yes, it makes more sense now that it is a cultural thing and not necessarily a practical perspective, though I would definitely rate katana melee right up there.

I find it interesting how, given the general adoration of japanese sword wielding skill, most of the competitive world class sport is almost exclusively European dueling sword styles; Epee, Foil and Saber predominantly. I suspect it is because it is more aesthetic than practical these days. But armor aside, I don't know as any Samurai style swordsmaster would want to face a duel with an Olympic class sabermaster. I just don't think the Samurai could hope for anything better than a stale mate.

I put the question to a competitor once, back when I too was on the Katana bandwagon, and he made a pretty convincing argument, not just from a points tally either.
 
benjammin said:
Yes, it makes more sense now that it is a cultural thing and not necessarily a practical perspective, though I would definitely rate katana melee right up there.

I find it interesting how, given the general adoration of japanese sword wielding skill, most of the competitive world class sport is almost exclusively European dueling sword styles; Epee, Foil and Saber predominantly. I suspect it is because it is more aesthetic than practical these days. But armor aside, I don't know as any Samurai style swordsmaster would want to face a duel with an Olympic class sabermaster. I just don't think the Samurai could hope for anything better than a stale mate.

I put the question to a competitor once, back when I too was on the Katana bandwagon, and he made a pretty convincing argument, not just from a points tally either.
Click to expand...

If your arguing katana vs modern Olympic sword I'm not so sure. While the Olympic sword has the speed and handling advantage it's only a thrusting weapon. I would think the katana would have the advantage in a real duel. In an Olympic duel I would think the saber/epee would have the advantage do to it's speed.

Now if you arguing actual saber vs Katana wielded by masters then I would say a draw or in the case of a real duel both might very well die do to inflicted wounds.
 
I think the Samurai might receive some stab wounds but he will smash through the fencers defense.
 
Actually either one would be subject to sustaining a mortal wound. Remember you are talking about two very different styles, and the practitioners of each are trained to expect attacks to come a certain way, and to defend in a certain way.
IMO, whoever got off first would have a decisive advantage in the altercation.

Chuck
 
Sword styles in popular culture come and go.

The katana's popularity probably is related in part to people taking them home after WWII and then years later finding out how valuable they were, making collecting katana popular, even though most modern reproductions are not valuable.

Another factor is the popularity of Japanese martial arts. Many practitioners like to have working swords for training, cutting practice, or just to have. I've also known many martial artists in arts that don't use the katana who like this style of sword.

In contrast, while fencing is popular in colleges and community centers, the average fencer has no desire to buy a real rapier or sabre. If fencers did buy sabres and rapiers at the same level practitioners of Japanese arts bought katana, then they'd probably outsell katana.

Some people just like movies and buy the swords from the movies, or ones that look like the ones on the movies. I the main characters on the "Highlander" TV series and movies used sabres instead of katana, sabres would probably be more popular than they currently are. The gladius was popular when "Gladiator" came out, and two-handed swords when the "Lord of the Rings" series was being shown.




benjammin said:
I always considered a good quality sabre to be an effective melee tool. Especially the more modern designs. Given that armor is fairly non-existent these days, I would think a single handed implement with a suitable guard would be preferable in most cases..
Click to expand...


A bolo, barong, machete, kukri, etc. would be more practical since they can also work well as tools, some of them being agricultural tools.


benjammin said:
When was the last time a sword of any type was used at least marginally in battle (major conflict)? I'm thinking it's been at least 100 years now.
Click to expand...

Guerillas in the Philippines still use Filipino blades, and they were used against the Japanese in WWII, and against Americans before that.

Machetes are popular weapons in Africa.
 
HolyRoller said:
The famed "ninjato" is actually an invention of Hollywood. There has been no historical evidence that ninjas used a straight, chisel-tip sword.
Click to expand...

While the ninja did not use the straight-bladed sword with a square tsuba, it is certainly not a Hollywood invention.

IMO is probably comes from entertainment, but Japanse, not Hollywood. I have a book that has pictures, probably from a Japanes museum, showing this type of sword. While the sword is probably a modern reproduction, the book predates Hollywood ninja movies.

It also predates Stephen Hayes' books, so he can't be blamed for inventing the sword either as some like to do.
 
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