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why the hatred for S.S. blades

Ed Caffrey said:
Karl even said it in his post when he mentioned that his customers generally send their stainless knives back to him to be sharpened....in my opinion thats simply a hassle for the customer.

Ed , I have the highest respect for you and your knowledge , I read all that you write . But in Karls post , the knives come back once a year . Once a year resharpening does not sound bad to me ,IMHO .

This has been a good thread and I highly appreciate every ones thought and belief . It is what I expected .

Yes , the stainless blades are harder for the customer to resharpen , especially if that customer believes it can be done with a kitchen steel . On the other hand I have had customer feed back from some working in the field for a week at a time , tell me they were tired of having to resharpen there carbon knives nightly after a day's work .

I use mostly ATS-34 ,( stock removal ) . I have had good results with sharpness and edge retention . Paul Bos heat treat .

Just wanted to here the pro's and con's and peoples beliefs and reasons why .Keep them coming .
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I don't use a lot of stainless, however, I will share a quick story.....

My neighbor, who will spend thousands on hunting rifles and scopes (read...... $3,200.00 for a deer rifle and scope), not to mention several thousand each year for "hunting club" memberships, but refuses to spend over $60-70 on a hunting knife.

Only stainless will suit his needs. He quizzed me on the best stainless available, and I told him that S-30V or 154CM were good steels if properly heat treated.

He found a deal on an S-30V from Ca**las ($60.00 on sale). He called me raising hell because I had told him that S-30V was a good stainless. He said that after cleaning two deer, the edge looked like a "saw-blade". It was so chipped that he couldn't use it again.

I invited him over for a demonstration. I took one of my shop knives made from S-30V and chopped through an antler, then cut slivers from the antler. I then shaved hair from my arm. He had a somewhat "WTF" look on his face.

I simply told him that you get what you pay for. My CPM S-30V was heat treated by Paul Bos.

Again......... You get what you pay for.

Robert
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
Good topic Jack.

Well, after what Caffery had to say, I have little to add. But I'll try.

*slipping on CS tin foil hat*

Cutting performance is a separate issue from edge retention. The Crucible CPM steel abrasive wear tests would have you think that S30V (or S90V, or A11 or M4 or whatever) is the ultimate blade steel. But most of us here know they're good for certain things, but are a pill to sharpen, and in a lot of use don't hold an edge as well as plain old, cheep 1095. So, they hold a dull edge well.

To put it simply, the percentage of the steel that is free chromium is a compromise to performance to achieve corrosion resistance. Even in my beloved D2. Even in the best stainless steel. If that 15% of that steel were martensite instead of free chromium - it would be stronger and tougher. Tougher steel can be used at higher hardness. Harder steel is stronger. Stronger steel can be sharpened to a more acute angle and not blunt, chip or roll. More acute edge angle cuts better. So - Carbon steel cuts better than stainless steel - if the maker takes advantage of it. Which is pretty much what the Mastersmith had to say. So I'll sit down now

*taking off tin foil hat, ducking and running away*
Click to expand...

Thanks Nathan . Like I told Ed , I read all you both have to say and listen to it all . I guess I'm just playing with the thought of doing my own HT after all these years , but that is a whole other subject .
 
There is validity to all of the opinions which simply proves that there is no ideal steel for making all blades. When you add enough chromium to produce a stainless steel, you have improved the abrasion and corrosion resistance but usually reduced toughness. I am not a purist as to thinking that one steel is superior for all blades and believe that in making a custom knife, a lot of the choise of steels is dictated by the intended use of the knife. As a whole, I am a carbon steel proponent. I was one of the first to use S30V ( I used it exclusively for the first year it was available) to see if the added toughness that it afforded over other stainless steels was enough to give up carbon steel as my primary steel. To shorten a long story, I am using carbon steels again. In the long run, I believe that the maker's ability to get the most out of his (her) chosen steel will always be more important than the type of steel chosen to make the knife from.

As a custom maker, it is our job to produce a blade that will best satisfiy the buyer's needs. For me I am more comfortable with a carbon steel since I believe that I can H/T it more consistantly in order to fit the needs of the customer. Maybe someday a miracle steel will be invented that will fill the needs of all people but I am old school enough to doubt it.

Gary
 
The reason that I will not warranty a stainless blade is due to the simple fact that I cannot make the material perform to the level of my forged blades. This came about because I had/have a very good customer who begged me, until I agreed to make him a knife with S30V. I spent a huge amount of time and effort, trying to engender the same qualities that my forged blades posses, and I did warranty that one.....after one hunting season the individual asked me if he could return that knife, and have me replace it with a similar blade of forged 52100. When I asked what he didn't like about the so S30 blade, his reply was.....everything. His main complaint was "I just can't sharpen this thing." When I got it back, there were a few tiny chips along the thinnest cross section of the edge, and by the time I tempering it to the point that chipping did not occur, it was too soft....basically the only way to deter the chipping, while keeping the blade hard enough to be functional, was to increase the edge geometry, which greatly increased the cutting resistance....which goes back to the blade seeming dull when in use, even though it was as sharp as I could get it with that given edge geometry.
Of course I don't know it all, and there possibly could have been some things I could have done differently with that blade/steel, but I spent nearly two months experimenting with that steel, and consulting with others who know much more about S30 than I do. All of the inputs told me that the steel simply would not tolerate the very fine edge geometries I use on my forged blades.

Concerning the geometry/Maker connection.... We have to go back in time when a certain production knife company introduced a particular knife that used 440C for the blade. The "engineers" who recommended the use of 440C read the technical properties and determined that the blade should be produced at a an Rc 61, which is what was done. Initially the blade of that specific model was flat ground, however, at Rc 61, the edges were too brittle to be durable. Rather than rethink the hardness level or blade material, the company changed the grind as a compensitory measure to increase the strength of the edge......this was when the "hollow grind" was perverted into what many of us call a "semi-hollow grind", which thickened the edges considerable, and at the same time created a much more obtuse cutting edge geometry......making that knife cut poorly, and very difficult for the average owner to sharpen. This all occurred while the custom knife movement in the country was in its infancy, and since that particular grind was somewhat easy to achieve, many early custom makers who practiced stock removal adopted it. It has endured to this day, not because of anything about it being better or superior, but because it was fairly simple to learn, and it countered the issue of thinner edge cross sections chipping at a higher Rc level.
SOME makers, who utilize stainless have taken the time and effort to test, and have made minor adaptations, but are still limited to what they can do with edge geometry, because of the limitations of the material. You simply cannot seperate the fact that along with high hardness, comes brittlness...and many of the stainless steels have a very narrow window between being too hard or too soft to function in thinner cross sections, such as a blade edge...generally it winds up that a compromise becomes necessary, and in most cases that compromise is detremental in some way to the blade's function.
I know I'm stepping on a lot of toes here, but again, its not meant to be anything malicious, just trying to honestly answer a question based on my observations and experimentation.
 
Ed Caffrey said:
The reason that I will not warranty a stainless blade is due to the simple fact that I cannot make the material perform to the level of my forged blades. This came about because I had/have a very good customer who begged me, until I agreed to make him a knife with S30V. I spent a huge amount of time and effort, trying to engender the same qualities that my forged blades posses, and I did warranty that one.....after one hunting season the individual asked me if he could return that knife, and have me replace it with a similar blade of forged 52100. When I asked what he didn't like about the so S30 blade, his reply was.....everything. His main complaint was "I just can't sharpen this thing." When I got it back, there were a few tiny chips along the thinnest cross section of the edge, and by the time I tempering it to the point that chipping did not occur, it was too soft....basically the only way to deter the chipping, while keeping the blade hard enough to be functional, was to increase the edge geometry, which greatly increased the cutting resistance....which goes back to the blade seeming dull when in use, even though it was as sharp as I could get it with that given edge geometry.
Of course I don't know it all, and there possibly could have been some things I could have done differently with that blade/steel, but I spent nearly two months experimenting with that steel, and consulting with others who know much more about S30 than I do. All of the inputs told me that the steel simply would not tolerate the very fine edge geometries I use on my forged blades.

Concerning the geometry/Maker connection.... We have to go back in time when a certain production knife company introduced a particular knife that used 440C for the blade. The "engineers" who recommended the use of 440C read the technical properties and determined that the blade should be produced at a an Rc 61, which is what was done. Initially the blade of that specific model was flat ground, however, at Rc 61, the edges were too brittle to be durable. Rather than rethink the hardness level or blade material, the company changed the grind as a compensitory measure to increase the strength of the edge......this was when the "hollow grind" was perverted into what many of us call a "semi-hollow grind", which thickened the edges considerable, and at the same time created a much more obtuse cutting edge geometry......making that knife cut poorly, and very difficult for the average owner to sharpen. This all occurred while the custom knife movement in the country was in its infancy, and since that particular grind was somewhat easy to achieve, many early custom makers who practiced stock removal adopted it. It has endured to this day, not because of anything about it being better or superior, but because it was fairly simple to learn, and it countered the issue of thinner edge cross sections chipping at a higher Rc level.
SOME makers, who utilize stainless have taken the time and effort to test, and have made minor adaptations, but are still limited to what they can do with edge geometry, because of the limitations of the material. You simply cannot seperate the fact that along with high hardness, comes brittlness...and many of the stainless steels have a very narrow window between being too hard or too soft to function in thinner cross sections, such as a blade edge...generally it winds up that a compromise becomes necessary, and in most cases that compromise is detremental in some way to the blade's function.
I know I'm stepping on a lot of toes here, but again, its not meant to be anything malicious, just trying to honestly answer a question based on my observations and experimentation.
Click to expand...

Thanks Ed . You spend a lot of time explaining your knowledge and learning experience in this craft . You are not stepping on my toes . I asked this question just for this input .

It's interesting , the different thoughts on this subject . None of us will ever live long enough to find the final answer , if there is ever one . I just hope all of our knives are still performing and working for those who may out live us .

James - I cannot help it , I love your Avatar . It makes me laugh every time I see it . Thanks for your insight .
 
Nathan and Ed, I appreciate your explanations. Makes a bit more sense to me now. More martensite composition in carbon steels instead of other alloying elements (i.e. chromium) taking up space in stainless steels provides a better steel structure that can be thinner but still perform. Sound about right?

No stepping on toes here either. I appreciate all of you masters sharing your reasoning and knowledge with us. :thumbup::thumbup:

--nathan
 
I make knives exclusively with carbon steels because I can get very thin edge geometry on a flat grind to hold up beautifully. In the kitchen I use stainless knives because the extreme edge is exposed to the corrosives in the food on 2 sides and therefore will corrode off making a carbon steel blade dull quicker than stainless. I like thin wickedly sharp flat grinds. Somene on this forum once said "Geometry cuts" there is no truer 2 word statement, steel properties allow you to achieve and maintain that geometry.


The only times I have had blades rust is when they were put away wet or dirty, or left where rain could find them.
I use 1084, 1095, and O-1 (and sometimes 5160 for swords)

-Page
 
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silver_pilate said:
Nathan and Ed, I appreciate your explanations. Makes a bit more sense to me now. More martensite composition in carbon steels instead of other alloying elements (i.e. chromium) taking up space in stainless steels provides a better steel structure that can be thinner but still perform. Sound about right?


--nathan
Click to expand...


That is my take on it, yes.

Ed isn't hypothesizing about the mechanism behind it, but he has reached the same conclusions about edge stability.
 
ONeill said:
James - I cannot help it , I love your Avatar . It makes me laugh every time I see it . Thanks for your insight .
Click to expand...

Not sure how much insight I really offer, but I'm glad to put a smile on someone's face whenever I can. :)

As a newbie, I appreciate this conversation very much. Especially the civil tone it has maintained. In certain other sub-forums, this would have degenerated into a fight by now :rolleyes: You gentlemen are great to hang around with and learn from. :thumbup: If any of you come to my neck of the woods, let's meet up and the coffee or beer is on me!
 
I've got a lot of Stainless, and prefer it in most of my knives, since I use them mainly for EDC. My production VG-10 and S30V knives retain an awesome edge for a relatively long time, and are a joy to sharpen.
S30V, If badly heat treated can cause chipping. Yet, it's a problem that is easy to solve- Proper initial sharpening and changing the factory bevel usually solves the problem. Though I've never had any problem with any stainless steel knife.
For heavy use, I still choose a tool steel or a high carbon one.
 
well, since Cliff Stamp is apparently banned, I'll speak up about the carbide volume and grain size....

Stainless usually has big grains. That causes problems in thin edges. If you must have a thin edge, with acute edge angles, use a fine grained steel. That excludes most stainless. If you can tolerate a thicker edge and obtuse sharpening angles stainless can be very serviceable. I've been getting some worn out stainless blades from an industrial meat processing machine... they wouldn't use stainless if it didn't work... then again it is a pretty fancy alloy...
 
It is wierd that some people think that hand made knives made from poor stainless steels like 420, 1.4116 or so are somehow more practical than tough hard steels. An old hunter says to me ones that his son gave him a new hunting knife, made from 440C but he is using his old, cheap 420 stainless steel drop point. I said: Why, that steel on a new knife is better?
He says: Yep, but I am losing too many time in sharpening in the field. My old knife just needs a wipe on a sharpening stone from each side, and it is ready to skin and cut again. My new knife sharpens slow..... Some people just like softer knives, that sharpens easy, than harder knives that can chip and break and hard-to-sharpen. It is all a question of habbits and maintance.

I wanted to buy some 440B or C lately, but I started to think of piece of O1 after this thread....
 
wnease said:
well, since Cliff Stamp is apparently banned, I'll speak up about the carbide volume and grain size....

Stainless usually has big grains. That causes problems in thin edges. If you must have a thin edge, with acute edge angles, use a fine grained steel. That excludes most stainless. If you can tolerate a thicker edge and obtuse sharpening angles stainless can be very serviceable. I've been getting some worn out stainless blades from an industrial meat processing machine... they wouldn't use stainless if it didn't work... then again it is a pretty fancy alloy...
Click to expand...


Are you talking about BECUT steel from BESTAR? It is specialy made for meat cutters and food industry.

Becut steel
 
I have to admit that even I usually use stainless or D2 on my blades I love to work with simple carbon steels, it is joy to forge and shape them, takes great edge, etc. but the pressure of the demand of SS steel from my customers made me a stock removal guy. I totally agree what is said here about carbon steels.... I really miss to work with my hammer and anvil...
 
galadduin,
You can have both worlds, it has been a while since I have done it, but 440c forges readily, and though not as easy as a 10xx steel it responds well to the hammer.
Del
 
I would like to thank every one for there insight and input on this subject . It has caused me to spend most of the day reading and taking notes . I have a head ache .

Thank you all and special thanks to Ed and Nathan for taking the time to explain all so well , your time is valuable but yet you take the time out to share your experience and knowledge with all of us .

Jack ONeill
 
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