Why Water Stones?

[Eli Chaps]

At the risk of causing some of my most respected members to perform a simultaneous face palm, I ask this question with sincerity but also with an admitted touch of "out loud thinking".

Long post, so if you don't feel like wading through it, why do you recommend water stones?



As some of you will know, my Japanese knife desires have again been ignited. I've gone through this before but more or less shied away from it. As I'm want to do when I'm buying myself something, I got caught up in basically analysis paralysis and backed off. Between the knives themselves and the seemingly obligatory water stone sharpening, I've always found myself a bit overwhelmed and somewhat intimidated.

The first thing I needed to do was up my free hand game. With the help of so many of you folks, that has happened. I'm not a master sharpener by any stretch, but I am now confident in my edges and my depth of understanding.

So, I found myself in this circle of, I want more Japanese knives but I need water stones and I'm not sure I want water stones or am not sure I can adjust so I'm not getting more Japanese knives... and round and round...

But this time as I was thinking I had a bit of an epiphany... Japanese knives aren't somehow impervious to my current sharpening stones. I know that sounds stupid simple, but I just, I don't know, somehow thought, that maybe an India stone was just too, um crude maybe? I know... But, that's what has been in my brain. Like somehow there was this intrinsic bond between the knife and stone and to not use water stones would be somehow bad for the knife... I know, I know...

Then today I found myself engaged in a really, really good conversation with a dealer. They aren't a supporting vendor but they are a merchant of knives and sell a lot of Japanese blades and sharpening equipment. I explained all of this to them and to my surprise and relief, they agreed that oil stones and such are perfectly acceptable. In fact, they thought my oil stones and diamonds were a really good choice for course stones.

My thought was water stones bring more versatility and precision. They more or less agreed and really went into how water stones shine in consistency, range of grits, polishing, etc. In no way did they dismiss or diminish the allure of water stones, they simply affirmed my essentially irrational concern that they were necessary. We actually had a great talk about a good direction for me to take with water stones.

And as weird as it might seem, that assuaged my concerns. I bought a new knife and am now feeling much more confident not just in sharpening it, but in pursuing water stone sharpening.

And so, with that very wordy post, as I asked in the beginning, why water stones? Why do you like water stones?

I eventually want to get some more complex steels in Japanese knives like R2 or maybe HAP40, so I'm thinking medium to fine grits for polishing.

 

[Tjstampa]

I do not have personal experience so take it for what it is worth. A chef friend of mine swears by hi Japanese knife and Waterstone combination. He has spent more on his home chef knives than I ave spent on my firearms. He claims that his water stones were made specifically for his knives chemistry and hardness. I don’t remember what brand of each but I do know they are scary sharp. The one time I used one of them there was almost no resistance to carrots and he can slice tomatoes almost paper thin.

 

[Ourorboros]

I actually agree, even though I use my water stones quite a bit.
At the end of the day it's about the controlled wearing of metal, after all. I've said before you can viably put together a mixed line up of oil stones, water stones (after cleaning off the oil) and diamonds if you want. Just know what grit range each is in.
On the coarser end, I actually think SiC and Aluminum Oxide stones do better than water stones. I certainly can't justify using water stones for chip repair based on feel, because it's all rather coarse at that point.
But a lot of water stones don't like having oil on them, so clean them off well.

When you get to polishing, SiC and India are pretty much out. Even for a medium finish, I don't think they are right. Diamonds only go so far - I think about 3000 on the JIS. So water stones are it, that's when your choices shine.

I did say though, that it's about controlled removal of metal and even a fast water stone is going to be slower than an India stone. So there is better control there. The feel is a lot better too - you will see that a lot of people choosing their stone set in part based on feel. I mean people really get into it, almost mystical.
I also believe that my final edge is more based on the last two stones I use and those are both polishing polishing stones. I should say I'm not big into stropping even though I have a nice set up.
For a knife that gets touched up or taken down to a coarse stone for added tooth as much as a kitchen knife is, that finer control is good. I mean an inexperienced sharpener who doesn't know when to stop can really shorten the life span of a knife. Give one something with a bolster to prove it.

I think that is where the difference in sharpening cultures come in. Woodworkers, with those huge bevels on those plane irons will just jam on stones sometimes. Speed and slow wear of stone are key. EDC sharpeners are on the practical end, from pull through to jigs to all kinds of free hand. All over the place, just get it done. In the J-knife world it's about connecting with your stones, feel, and the edge you want. Time isn't as big a factor as the right result in a way that feels right. Jigs are okay, but freehanding is encouraged said to be a way to know your knife more.
These are generalizations from various forums, but there do seem to be different values beyond getting a sharp edge.

For water stones, people are often pointed to a set of Shapton Pros as a very effective intro set (320-1K-5K) that is cost effective (plus a flattening plate). And it absolutely works - learn to use it and there is nothing bad people can say about the edge. But it's funny how often people start exploring from there.

Some of it is First World Problems of course. If you have choices you can choose to be annoyed by the feedback of a stone or at least to want better. For instance I have a set of diamonds I only use when I need to, but then I did have the money to pay for them and the knives that need them. I have a pair of 2K stones I have in the middle of my progression (Kohetsu 2000 and Shapton 2000) because one feels better and the other doesn't need soaking. Was my 1K ineffective? No, but but I've found I prefer the feel of 2K's in general and because the jump makes more sense to me coming from a 500 stone.
That's the wordy way of saying "because we can".

But especially for the people who go from coarse or medium to stropping, oil stones can really make sense and is even more cost effective.

 

[Ourorboros]

That was kind of a big, unorganized brain dump. Which left out:
Two of the things water stone people often talk about is feel and feedback. That is where they stand out and that's what gives you control and enjoyment.
These qualities are kind of personal and can take time to gain. I dislike the Shapton Pro 5K because of lack of feedback, but I'm fine with a worn in black Arkansas stone - and that feels like oiled slate. Once you get to polishing, I don't know how critical feedback is. It's hard to polish a knife into nothing, or even to polish out all the teeth on one sitting. Your thumb or paper will tell you where you are.
Because these things are so personal, you find so many different preferred brands and progressions. And it's hard to argue against any of them if the brands are quality! That's what makes this such a rabbit hole, even before you get to natural stones.
But don't let that intimidate you, with a quality brand there isn't a reason to try more stones unless you feel like it.

 

[Ben Dover]

I can't really quantify it, but I just like diamonds and waterstones far better than oil stones or india stones.

A dear friend of mine (who is a far better sharpener than I am) will use nothing but waterstones on his knives, but uses nothing but natural stones on his razors??????

I think personal preference is a much larger factor in stone selection than most will admit.

 

[ToddS]

When you are working with large surface areas, like the back of a chisel or plane blade, or thinning a wide-bevel Japanese knife it may be difficult/impossible to achieve sufficient pressure to remove steel efficiently. "Waterstones" (meaning stones that shed grit and form slurry/mud) have a tremendous advantage in that those loose particles of the mud can speed up the removal of steel at low pressure.

 

[Eli Chaps]

I actually agree, even though I use my water stones quite a bit.
At the end of the day it's about the controlled wearing of metal, after all. I've said before you can viably put together a mixed line up of oil stones, water stones (after cleaning off the oil) and diamonds if you want. Just know what grit range each is in.
On the coarser end, I actually think SiC and Aluminum Oxide stones do better than water stones. I certainly can't justify using water stones for chip repair based on feel, because it's all rather coarse at that point.
But a lot of water stones don't like having oil on them, so clean them off well.

When you get to polishing, SiC and India are pretty much out. Even for a medium finish, I don't think they are right. Diamonds only go so far - I think about 3000 on the JIS. So water stones are it, that's when your choices shine.

I did say though, that it's about controlled removal of metal and even a fast water stone is going to be slower than an India stone. So there is better control there. The feel is a lot better too - you will see that a lot of people choosing their stone set in part based on feel. I mean people really get into it, almost mystical.
I also believe that my final edge is more based on the last two stones I use and those are both polishing polishing stones. I should say I'm not big into stropping even though I have a nice set up.
For a knife that gets touched up or taken down to a coarse stone for added tooth as much as a kitchen knife is, that finer control is good. I mean an inexperienced sharpener who doesn't know when to stop can really shorten the life span of a knife. Give one something with a bolster to prove it.

I think that is where the difference in sharpening cultures come in. Woodworkers, with those huge bevels on those plane irons will just jam on stones sometimes. Speed and slow wear of stone are key. EDC sharpeners are on the practical end, from pull through to jigs to all kinds of free hand. All over the place, just get it done. In the J-knife world it's about connecting with your stones, feel, and the edge you want. Time isn't as big a factor as the right result in a way that feels right. Jigs are okay, but freehanding is encouraged said to be a way to know your knife more.
These are generalizations from various forums, but there do seem to be different values beyond getting a sharp edge.

For water stones, people are often pointed to a set of Shapton Pros as a very effective intro set (320-1K-5K) that is cost effective (plus a flattening plate). And it absolutely works - learn to use it and there is nothing bad people can say about the edge. But it's funny how often people start exploring from there.

Some of it is First World Problems of course. If you have choices you can choose to be annoyed by the feedback of a stone or at least to want better. For instance I have a set of diamonds I only use when I need to, but then I did have the money to pay for them and the knives that need them. I have a pair of 2K stones I have in the middle of my progression (Kohetsu 2000 and Shapton 2000) because one feels better and the other doesn't need soaking. Was my 1K ineffective? No, but but I've found I prefer the feel of 2K's in general and because the jump makes more sense to me coming from a 500 stone.
That's the wordy way of saying "because we can".

But especially for the people who go from coarse or medium to stropping, oil stones can really make sense and is even more cost effective.

I can certainly relate to the connection aspect of it all. And I'd say it's more like a Prairie Dog Town maze of tunnels than a rabbit hole!

Thank you for the thoughtful post.

 

[Eli Chaps]

When you are working with large surface areas, like the back of a chisel or plane blade, or thinning a wide-bevel Japanese knife it may be difficult/impossible to achieve sufficient pressure to remove steel efficiently. "Waterstones" (meaning stones that shed grit and form slurry/mud) have a tremendous advantage in that those loose particles of the mud can speed up the removal of steel at low pressure.

Todd, that makes a lot of sense. I'd also think that my oil stones would be far too rough on wide beveled Japanese knife and would really scratch things up.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Todd, that makes a lot of sense. I'd also think that my oil stones would be far too rough on wide beveled Japanese knife and would really scratch things up.

You can also apply more force without damaging the blade or causing excessive burring. Although on the harder ceramic waterstones, leaning on them will also cause the surface to plug a bit.

Overall, up to about a medium grit, waterstones don't really have any advantage over a Crystalon, India, diamond plate. Once you get into the finer medium range stones and finishing stones is where they really shine. Disclaimer - some of the muddy waterstones out there can make VERY nice coarse edges with less burr formation than off a comparable vitreous stone.

In general waterstones induce a bit of lapping action, and this reduces burr formation even at lower grit and higher applied pressure. This makes them faster overall and improves feedback at any pressure. The ability to recondition the surface means they cut at a predictable speed every time you use them.

The swarf and stone residue is easily rinsed away vs needing to be wiped away with oil or some other cleaning agent like Simple Green. This isn't a drawback unless you do a lot of sharpening, and then it can be a significant drawback.

In my world, where the waterstones really get it done is at the polishing stone level. A good quality 8k waterstone is a LOT nicer, easier and faster by orders of magnitude to work with than an EEF diamond plate, UF Ceramic, or translucent or black Arkansas, while being more precise than lapping film.

And as Todd stated, they are a far nicer choice on wide beveled tools, esp once you get above a medium grit.

 

[Eli Chaps]

You can also apply more force without damaging the blade or causing excessive burring. Although on the harder ceramic waterstones, leaning on them will also cause the surface to plug a bit.

Overall, up to about a medium grit, waterstones don't really have any advantage over a Crystalon, India, diamond plate. Once you get into the finer medium range stones and finishing stones is where they really shine. Disclaimer - some of the muddy waterstones out there can make VERY nice coarse edges with less burr formation than off a comparable vitreous stone.

In general waterstones induce a bit of lapping action, and this reduces burr formation even at lower grit and higher applied pressure. This makes them faster overall and improves feedback at any pressure. The ability to recondition the surface means they cut at a predictable speed every time you use them.

The swarf and stone residue is easily rinsed away vs needing to be wiped away with oil or some other cleaning agent like Simple Green. This isn't a drawback unless you do a lot of sharpening, and then it can be a significant drawback.

In my world, where the waterstones really get it done is at the polishing stone level. A good quality 8k waterstone is a LOT nicer, easier and faster by orders of magnitude to work with than an EEF diamond plate, UF Ceramic, or translucent or black Arkansas, while being more precise than lapping film.

And as Todd stated, they are a far nicer choice on wide beveled tools, esp once you get above a medium grit.

One key thing this has all helped me with is that I can start out with a higher grit water stone. Meaning, my first purchase. I'm so often so "course-focused" when considering new stones that just sort of automatically start looking at the low stuff and thinking I'll work up later.

Maybe something like a 1-2k will be my first toe-dip knowing that I have the tools right now to to handle the courser work if necessary.

There's no getting around that these things can get expensive quick. And it is not just the stones, it's a new stone holder, sink bridge, rust eraser, etc.

So being better focused on plugging the gaps, if you will, is a real benefit!

 

[HeavyHanded]

One key thing this has all helped me with is that I can start out with a higher grit water stone. Meaning, my first purchase. I'm so often so "course-focused" when considering new stones that just sort of automatically start looking at the low stuff and thinking I'll work up later.

Maybe something like a 1-2k will be my first toe-dip knowing that I have the tools right now to to handle the courser work if necessary.

There's no getting around that these things can get expensive quick. And it is not just the stones, it's a new stone holder, sink bridge, rust eraser, etc.

So being better focused on plugging the gaps, if you will, is a real benefit!

Just get a good quality 1k and 8k, use any of your coarse stones to set up. You can get a 4-5k later. Sink bridge is a piece of cedar or synthetic lumber cut to fit your sink or an existing basin of some sort. Most polishing stones come with a nagura. You will need a plate for flattening, you can get a 6" or 8" round 170 mesh lapidary plate very inexpensively compared to many commercial flattening stones.

Put the money into the stones, fudge the rest.

 

[Eli Chaps]

Just get a good quality 1k and 8k, use any of your coarse stones to set up. You can get a 4-5k later. Sink bridge is a piece of cedar or synthetic lumber cut to fit your sink or an existing basin of some sort. Most polishing stones come with a nagura. You will need a plate for flattening, you can get a 6" or 8" round 170 mesh lapidary plate very inexpensively compared to many commercial flattening stones.

Put the money into the stones, fudge the rest.

Yeah, saw some homemade bridges and even one guy using the back of a large ceramic tile for flattening. Certainly got the juices flowing!

 

[Ourorboros]

You don't need a new stone holder if you don't want.
Building a sink bridge is easy enough, you need a thick enough board that's either treated or naturally water resistant so it doesn't warp. Some rubberized or silicon surface glued on top to hold your stone, maybe some on the underside for the sink. You should be using so much force to move that, unless you are doing chip repair.
OTOH a sink bridge that holds the stone is only $40.

I have some carbon steel - mostly blues with some white and I haven't needed a rust eraser. Wipe them dry, oil when you store. Camellia oil is popular, though you can use food safe mineral oi.

 

[Jason B.]

Why waterstones? Because HAP40 is not getting sharpened on an india stone. Japanese steels can be very hard and oil stones quickly fall short when encountering these steels. Even if you could make progress you really need to be in the 2000-4000 grit range with a lot of high end j-knives and your not getting that from oil stones. And lets not bring Arkansas stones into the discussion, they really wont work on many if any j-knives to begin with.

If you do give it a try though, you will quickly find yourself with glazed stones because the knife will be polishing the stone...

I have some SKD-15, ZDP-189 and Aogami Super on the sharpening bench now thats pushing the limits of my Shapton Glass stones which are some of best stones for such steels. Its also because these steels are all 63-66 HRc which is about 5 points harder than you will find with most any other knife maker especially when compared to pocket knives. Literally, the only thing close is Spyderco ZDP-189.

But back to the point, why waterstones? Because they sharpen better, they give more options, they are more enjoyable than other methods and they are the right tool for the job.

When buying waterstones dont make the beginner mistake of thinking you can simply buy a fine grit stone and all will be good, it just doesn't work like that. The 1000 grit stone is the middle of the road for grinding and polishing stones. It is the last "coarse stone" that is able to remove noticable amounts of material and the precursor to all polishing stages. It is also considered a "do all" grit because of this and in professional kitchens is the choice of grit for the "House stone"

At minimal a 1000 grit should be your starting point and then you can follow up with a finer stone auch as a 6k. An edge is only as good as where it begins so you at least need to have a starting point, something to establish a bevel so polishing stones have something to work with. And dont forget a lapping plate, there are many options here but the Atoma 140 is about as good as it gets for price and effectiveness.

 

[Eli Chaps]

Jason B. thanks for the informative post. I am going to pursue water stones for sure. Discussions like this really help me prioritize. I might have to start with one or two stones, wait little while, add another, etc.

I typically buy myself a new knife after the first of the year. Once the holidays are over and the kids get their gifts, then I treat myself. I splurged this week only because of a very good sale that wasn't going to last more than a few days. But, next year, it won't be a new knife but a couple stones to get started.

I like HeavyHanded 's idea of a 1k and 8k or similar combo to start out. Would you agree?

I will be getting something courser as well at some point but was thinking I might be able to stall that longer.

I did fall in love with an R2 blade and while it is quite a ways off, that is the goal for my sharpening gear I'd like to work toward.

I should mention I do have diamonds as well. I have a 300 and 600 bench. I know not ideal, just tossing it out there.

 

[Eli Chaps]

As for the rust eraser, I only mentioned that as I'd heard or read somewhere in all of this that they were very effective for cleaning harder stones...?

 

[Jason B.]

As for the rust eraser, I only mentioned that as I'd heard or read somewhere in all of this that they were very effective for cleaning harder stones...?

I have only ever used a rust eraser to remove rust from steel. To clean stones I lap them, if they are diamond plates I use barkeepersfriend.

 

[Metal Man 007]

I did not read the thread but I buy the manmade water stones because the are good and price wise they make sense to me. I buy low grit oil stones for the same reason. Apparently low grit water stones dont last long at all , low grit oil stones last a long while.

 

[Eli Chaps]

Open Question: Any reason I can't use my 300 grit diamond for lapping/dressing until I buy a new plate?

 

[tiguy7]

I like the Shapton Glass, spritz and hone water stones for my non Vanadium, Niobium, Titanium, Tungsten, etc. blades.
For those, I use Venev and Nanohone Diamond “stones”. The SiC and other Al2O3 stuff works on the first group, but I like the feed back on the Shaptons.