Why Water Stones?

[Eli Chaps]

Personally I hit a ceiling with my technique until I switched over to my left hand side It allowed me to maintain the knife at a 45° angle of orientation in relation to the stone just like on my right side with the spine away from me which is huge for keeping the knife nice and steady on the stone when moving back and forth. Also makes the same scratch pattern I get on my right side, It certainly paid off to make the switch It was difficult initially because all I wanted to do was be awesome but I think it's definitely worth it to step outside ones comfort zone.


I think one problem here on forums is everybody has a different way of doing something and if you try to follow every person's different way of doing something you'll be more confused than ever.

Just find something you like and stick with it and branch out when curiosity demands or if there is potential for huge improvement but I wouldn't worry about idiosyncrasies and chasing them.

Completely agree. I still want to incorporate my left hand. Just had too many changes all at once. So I'll slow things down and make incremental adjustments. I've watched your "how-to" video on how you sharpening (over the sink with the vitrified stone) several times and it's an inspiration. That's where I want to get to.

 

[HeavyHanded]

I think one problem here on forums is everybody has a different way of doing something and if you try to follow every person's different way of doing something you'll be more confused than ever.

This!
Keep a little thought as to what other folks recommend and how, but do what works for you. Maybe you'll come around to how someone else recommended and maybe not.

I went through three really invasive wrist surgeries over a 4 year period and had to learn right, left, both hands as dedicated primary and dedicated support. My technique is slowly looking more and more like traditional Japanese, with right hand primary, angled on the right side, perpendicular on the left. Depends on the item.

 

[Eli Chaps]

This!
Keep a little thought as to what other folks recommend and how, but do what works for you. Maybe you'll come around to how someone else recommended and maybe not.

I went through three really invasive wrist surgeries over a 4 year period and had to learn right, left, both hands as dedicated primary and dedicated support. My technique is slowly looking more and more like traditional Japanese, with right hand primary, angled on the right side, perpendicular on the left. Depends on the item.

For me, the most important thing is the honesty. It's easy to pretend you're not seeing what you are or that the edges are better than they are or what have you. Especially when you have so much prior success and then are trying new things and want them to work quickly.

But, you have to be honest about your results and make adjustments until things progress.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

A major advantage of freehand sharpening is in field sharpening a wide range of tools with a limited range of stones. That doesn't apply as much with water stones specifically but many of the skills learned in bench stone usage still translate to abrasives that are brought to the tool rather than the other way 'round.

 

[Spideyjg]

A major advantage of freehand sharpening is in field sharpening a wide range of tools with a limited range of stones. That doesn't apply as much with water stones specifically but many of the skills learned in bench stone usage still translate to abrasives that are brought to the tool rather than the other way 'round.

Exactly. If you get the fundamentals of sharpening it just become a question of what abrasive do I have to use.

 

[Eli Chaps]

One of @DeadboxHero's older videos popped up in my YT feed and since it was one I hadn't seen I gave it a click. He points out something I had really thought of too much; compounding imperfections.

In the video he mentions it a couple times, each having somewhat different but yet the same root cause of spending too much time on the stone and all your subtle imperfections in technique will begin to stack up and show and be detrimental.

I'd never really thought about that but once you hear it, it does make a lot of sense. I just found it an interesting point and worthy of considering when buying stones. Especially, about the cutting speed.

 

[Eli Chaps]

Also, with the world being upside down, I noticed a number of stones being out of stock at various places.

I did manage to find a Shapton Glass 500 and ordered it a few minutes ago but when I was looking around and different brands/lines, I notice several grits would be marked as out of stock and at different vendors.

 

[HeavyHanded]

One of @DeadboxHero's older videos popped up in my YT feed and since it was one I hadn't seen I gave it a click. He points out something I had really thought of too much; compounding imperfections.

In the video he mentions it a couple times, each having somewhat different but yet the same root cause of spending too much time on the stone and all your subtle imperfections in technique will begin to stack up and show and be detrimental.

I'd never really thought about that but once you hear it, it does make a lot of sense. I just found it an interesting point and worthy of considering when buying stones. Especially, about the cutting speed.

I'll have to watch that one.
The most frustrating thing to deal with is seeing the imperfections and not being able to correct for them. This goes back to my "freehand control tips" video where I study how other people hold and move various tools on a stone. Also take note of spatial differences - the height of the work surface etc.

Sometimes you can correct a defect with more attention, sometimes it takes a change in mechanics, stone height, something not obvious when you set out to improve.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

Oh, if you get into the polishing end, you should know that the Grit Chart is wrong on the high end for Shapton.
The 10K Shapton Glass is 1.47 microns, not 1.74.

I don't know if you were referring to my grit chart or another, but this is a surprise. The Shapton Glass Stone 10000 used to be labeled 1.74 micron as can be seen in images still in use by Chef Knives To Go and Best Sharpening Stones. However checking shapton.co.jp/en now shows this stone marked 1.47 as you say. Further the 3000 and 6000 stones are labeled differently as well. Would you please tell me when you acquired your Glass Stone 10000?

 

[Ourorboros]

Interesting, I believe the picture, but it makes little sense.
The 1K is 14.7 u
The 8k is 1.84 u
The 16k is .92u
In fact all the other stones are in linear proportion to the 1K stone - except the 10K.

 

[000Robert]

My concise thoughts, itemized for your convenience. ;-)


I don't see a single advantage to water stones vs. modern diamond abrasives.




I see no reason why Japanese water stones and freehand sharpening would be obligatory, just because the knife is Japanese. Don't fall for it!



Again, I don't buy this. Why, particularly, must sharpening be done freehand? If you want it to be a sub-hobby or to develop that skill, I understand. But otherwise, you're just making it hard on yourself. I went through this phase as a young 'un, developed enough skill to satisfy myself that I could do it if I needed to, but quickly found that it's faster and wastes less steel and time to have some kind of guide. (exception being ceramic rod-type sharpeners, where I only have to hold the knife vertical)


See how simple that is if you don't tie yourself down to Jap water stones? ;-)


Don't bother with India stones either. Get yourself a KOWS and a Sharpmaker = job done. Heck, for kitchen knives, you don't even need the KOWS; Sharpmaker alone will do you fine.

(snipped the rest)

You can bet that if they had our sharpening means, the ancient Japanese would NOT have messed around with their water stones. If they REALLY wanted to be arty and do it freehand, they'd use DMT diamond stones. Otherwise, KOWS.

I don't understand how some people say that diamond stones ruin the edges on their Japanese knife steels. If the steel is as hard as they claim it is, like 61 - 63RC, then it seems to me that diamond stones should work just fine as long as they aren't applying too much pressure. Diamond stones should be able to easily cut that steel. Maybe they are using diamond stones that are too coarse?
When I ask them if they have actually checked the hardness of their 'hard' Japanese steel, or if maybe there is some other problem going on, I more or less get a sit down, shut up, listen to me, and go buy some expensive stones, response.

 

[Taz]

I personally don't care for the edge left with diamond stones on pocket/utility, let alone Kitchen knives. I even had a very early DMT 8000 grit diamond flat plate (the diamonds started peeling off quickly) and I didn't care for the edge it left; it felt very rough, even though it was 8000 grit. They remove metal quickly, but I really don't care for the edge left by any of the ones I have tried. Diamonds won't ruin the edge, but I am guessing people may be referring to them leaving deeper scratches, which with thinner/harder edges, may lead to chipping? Just guessing at that part?

If I want a toothy edge, I go with a San Aoto for slicing, strop the Bester 1200 edge or use a Shapton pro 2K. Most of my knives (kitchen, pocket, hunting, etc) get a Bester 1200/Rika 5K edge and then stropped on bare leather or Bark Rivers Black and then Green compound or comparable CBN emulsions. I used to have around 20 J Nats and a ton of various synthetic stones, and found the Bester 1200/Rika 5K is my favorite combo. I have Suehiro, Shaptons, Nortons, Nubatama, King and several other brands. With my 2x72 and VFD, I will often go up to 400 or 600 belt to get an edge established and then go to the water stones to really refine it. I like how the waterstones break down quicker and expose fresh abrasive and make a slurry, which gives the edge a cleaner feel to me.

Many years ago I read that the Norton India stone with a most awesomest stone out there for a hunting knife, so I got one and used it on a few blades. Hated the edge it left, felt so coarse and rough, didn't cut all that great either, especially with D2. People have particular preferences when it comes to stones! If what you have works, go for it. If you don't like it, try something else!

KOWS is a nice system, simple, easy and repeatable!

 

[000Robert]

I don't buy it. Wicked Edge has diamond stones, diamond lapping films, and diamond emulsion and sprays into the sub-microns, and I use a lot of them. I can make edges shine like a mirror with diamonds. So I don't buy the bad edge malarkey. If the diamonds are cutting too deep for someone then they need to go to a higher grit. That's the way that I see it. I've had no problems with diamonds.

The OP asked, "Why water stones?". My question is, "Why buy and use any steel that doesn't work well with diamonds"?

 

[Blues]

The OP asked, "Why water stones?". My question is, "Why buy and use any steel that doesn't work well with diamonds"?

The OP is an experienced sharpener. He was inviting discussion...not admitting to ineptitude. (In case there was any question.)

 

[000Robert]

The OP is an experienced sharpener. He was inviting discussion...not admitting to ineptitude. (In case there was any question.)

I know. I guess I should buy a chef knife with Japanese steel and test diamonds on it myself. But I don't need one. Wouldn't a lot of other steels work just as good as Japanese steel?

 

[HeavyHanded]

I don't understand how some people say that diamond stones ruin the edges on their Japanese knife steels. If the steel is as hard as they claim it is, like 61 - 63RC, then it seems to me that diamond stones should work just fine as long as they aren't applying too much pressure. Diamond stones should be able to easily cut that steel. Maybe they are using diamond stones that are too coarse?
When I ask them if they have actually checked the hardness of their 'hard' Japanese steel, or if maybe there is some other problem going on, I more or less get a sit down, shut up, listen to me, and go buy some expensive stones, response.

I think when it comes to Japanese knives that have double bevel it really doesn't matter. When it comes to single bevel with wide surface contact area and very acute edge, plated diamonds just aren't the best choice. Not that diamonds in general are a bad abrasive choice, that's why so many mfgs are coming out with diamond waterstones. Its the composition of the stone itself.

When it comes to freehand volume or speed, waterstones generally are a good bit faster as its so much easier to clear the surface, and the slight bit of lapping action the lose abrasive has cuts way down on burr formation at the same amount of pressure used on a plated diamond or hard vitreous stone.

On a personal and anecdotal level I don't think diamonds work as well on carbon steels as they do on stainless, where they absolutely excel. Not night and day obviously, but a persistent subtle observation.

 

[000Robert]

I think when it comes to Japanese knives that have double bevel it really doesn't matter. When it comes to single bevel with wide surface contact area and very acute edge, plated diamonds just aren't the best choice. Not that diamonds in general are a bad abrasive choice, that's why so many mfgs are coming out with diamond waterstones. Its the composition of the stone itself.

When it comes to freehand volume or speed, waterstones generally are a good bit faster as its so much easier to clear the surface, and the slight bit of lapping action the lose abrasive has cuts way down on burr formation at the same amount of pressure used on a plated diamond or hard vitreous stone.

On a personal and anecdotal level I don't think diamonds work as well on carbon steels as they do on stainless, where they absolutely excel. Not night and day obviously, but a persistent subtle observation.

Thanks for your succinct reply! That's what I was after. Maybe some day I'll do some testing of them myself. I might buy my sister a Japanese chef knife for her next birthday and experiment with it.