Winkler belt knife fails strength tests (GREAT response by Winkler)

CaptainPicardX · Jul 30, 2015

bladeninja said:
That's a damn shame. These knives are incredible. I have the same one in 80crv2. Before you continued your, "destruction" test, I was going to say, just get a hold of Daniel. He'll take care of you but then you beat the hell out of it. I don't know any knife or steel that could withstand that kind of abuse. I don't think you should be disappointed at all with the latter results but the first one WOULD HAVE been fixed or replaced EASILY.

I do..

Nathan carothers knives and also knife research rasul

here

https://youtu.be/jAFQAp3Fo9I

https://youtu.be/TvZQv3qOkBs?list=FLdWyPnn4oVEQrOMo1LiASxQ

mikestrat · Jul 30, 2015

I own (3) of Daniel's knives to date. That being said, I had a problem with one of them. It was a brand new model at the time and I believe I received one of the earliest of that particular design. I contacted Daniel and described the issue and he shipped me a new one without even asking me to return the original first. Of course I subsequently returned the original (as would be the only proper thing to do) which was prepaid by him and I have never looked back since. In all my correspondences with Mr. Winkler, he answered all my questions, taught me a whole lot about knives in the process and I could not recommend Daniel more highly as the best of the best and a gentleman to boot. Period.

BluntCut MetalWorks · Jul 30, 2015

In the realm of reality...

Nathan w/o hesitant gave his knife edge geometry. An excellent performing general utility 3V blade!

For KnifeResearch (KR Rasul) - http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/891916-KR-Rasul-cutting-test-of-bolt-and-nut
No info on edge geometry, except 'convex'. So here is my guestimation of edge geometry

A good bolt cutting geometry but won't do well on normal cutting tasks. If thinned & reprofiled it to 15dps, 0.020" edge thick, not sure its edge would survive a nail cutting test.

CaptainPicardX said:
I do..

Nathan carothers knives and also knife research rasul

here

https://youtu.be/jAFQAp3Fo9I

https://youtu.be/TvZQv3qOkBs?list=FLdWyPnn4oVEQrOMo1LiASxQ

Vegas Blade · Jul 30, 2015

I have always heard very good thinks about Mr. Winkler. I have guys that I reapect that know him and speak highly of his products. I must say, the way he handled this situation was absolutely stellar. That was all day classy. I have not purchased any of Winkler's products yet....now I will remedy that. Excellent customer care right there Mr. Winkler.

grownstar · Jul 31, 2015

I back this statement! ^^

Winkler is a classy dude.

crom · Jul 31, 2015

That's one cool looking butter knife my man! Ouch, 5160 should not behave like that.

Sonnydaze · Jul 31, 2015

Mr. Winkler's response was first-class. There's a reason for his fine reputation.

9chase26 · Aug 1, 2015

DWinkler said:
Twindog,

Wow! what a piece of crap! First let me say if you will send me your address I'll send you a new knife. Feel free to test it too. ( I would prefer you not cut a nail, that seems a little extreme and I don't really intend this model to cut steel. If you need to cut steel I make a Rescue axe designed to cut sheet metal that would probably hold up.)

About the time that knife was made was when I implemented some new inspection and testing procedures. As with that knife, we had a few come through with similar problems. This came from some issues with heat treating. That knife was most likely made from 52-100. I found out that this particular batch needed to soak in the high temp salt for no less than 1 full hour. We had only been going for about 15 min at heat and a full run of about 10 knives came out soft. I thought we had gotten them all but I guess not. Basically you tested a knife that had an improper heat treat.

We make more knives that I can possibly do all myself. It also has taken a while to get the guy's to a point that they can recognize the possible problems that can arise that are not visual. Each blade is now checked after heat treating and before the handle goes on to assure it is up to standards. There may be one that slips through now and then but it is rare. Humans make mistakes but we are trying to eliminate all the problems we can. However when one does come up we will take care of the problem.

Daniel

Wonderful response. Cheers.

draperfish · Aug 3, 2015

Yes, cudos to Dan, glad to own one of his belt knives! First class response for sure!

The Mastiff · Aug 3, 2015

Mistakes do happen but I'd feel confident ordering from Mr. Winkler. He did everything he is supposed to in resolving this. It's a non issue IMO.

As far as the Vandis 23 goes that is equiv. to M3-2 HSS. It's a higher wear, higher carbon version of M2 HSS. I have a slab of the M3-2 version (from Crucible IIRC) that I never got around to using. I was going to make some knives out of it but never did. Slightly higher abrasive wear but a tiny bit less tough than M2. It should make great knives just like M2 does. At rc 64-65 M2 is still tougher than stainless's like 440C and definitely has greater abrasive wear resistance. I've always liked M2 just like I've always liked 0-1, W2, 52100, 3V, Vasco/Cruwear/PD#1/Z wear , CPM M4 and now also 4V ( I have two knives in that. One rc 59-60 and one rc 63)

Right up my alley with good combinations of wear, edge stability, and toughness. That they resist corrosion a little bit is a bonus but not necessary for me.

Joe

CaptainPicardX · Aug 3, 2015

The Mastiff said:
Mistakes do happen but I'd feel confident ordering from Mr. Winkler. He did everything he is supposed to in resolving this. It's a non issue IMO.

As far as the Vandis 23 goes that is equiv. to M3-2 HSS. It's a higher wear, higher carbon version of M2 HSS. I have a slab of the M3-2 version (from Crucible IIRC) that I never got around to using. I was going to make some knives out of it but never did. Slightly higher abrasive wear but a tiny bit less tough than M2. It should make great knives just like M2 does. At rc 64-65 M2 is still tougher than stainless's like 440C and definitely has greater abrasive wear resistance. I've always liked M2 just like I've always liked 0-1, W2, 52100, 3V, Vasco/Cruwear/PD#1/Z wear , CPM M4 and now also 4V ( I have two knives in that. One rc 59-60 and one rc 63)

Right up my alley with good combinations of wear, edge stability, and toughness. That they resist corrosion a little bit is a bonus but not necessary for me.

Joe

Yes, he did good, but Im not like one of you guys, just dropping the issue just like that.. I wanna see a test on the second knife.. Whenever the guy gets the new one..

In the mean time.. I still prefer 3v, or M2 like you said.

bodog · Aug 3, 2015

CaptainPicardX said:
Yes, he did good, but Im not like one of you guys, just dropping the issue just like that.. I wanna see a test on the second knife.. Whenever the guy gets the new one..

In the mean time.. I still prefer 3v, or M2 like you said.

It SHOULD be able to withstand some serious use. I wonder if DW's knives are too expensive for most people to put through some serious paces without being worried about diminishing resale value. I wouldn't mind getting ahold of one to see how well they do, too.

Fred Sanford · Aug 4, 2015

I didn't know about Winkler knives until I started seeing Dom Raso carry them (a good dude I follow on FB and YouTube). After seeing Winkler's reply I would't hesitate to buy one. Seem like damn good folks.

Czechmate · Aug 4, 2015

It's unfortunate to see a lemon slip through like that but DW's response is top notch. :thumbup:

Twindog · Aug 4, 2015

I just received an email from Daniel saying the replacement knife is going out today. I'll be sending the old knife back to him.

I'm not going to test the new knife the way I did the old one -- just do normal testing and usage, as I do with all my users for the kinds of things all good knives can handle. I'm sure the replacement knife will be fine.

I'll post photos and impressions when the new knife arrives.

bodog · Aug 4, 2015

Twindog said:
I just received an email from Daniel saying the replacement knife is going out today. I'll be sending the old knife back to him.

I'm not going to test the new knife the way I did the old one -- just do normal testing and usage, as I do with all my users for the kinds of things all good knives can handle. I'm sure the replacement knife will be fine.

I'll post photos and impressions when the new knife arrives.

What would it take to convince you to measure the edge angle and compare or measure the behind the edge thickness and then cut a nail or two showing the result?

Twindog · Aug 4, 2015

bodog said:
What would it take to convince you to measure the edge angle and compare or measure the behind the edge thickness and then cut a nail or two showing the result?

The edge angle on the knife in the OP is a little over 50 degrees inclusive. The edge shoulders are 0.050 inches. So the edge geometry is robust, although the blade geometry is more acute.

The only reason I tried to cut the nail was because the blade was already ruined at that point, and it didn't really matter -- it was just a way to get more information.

I'm pretty sure that the knife Daniel is sending back to me will be perfect, and I don't cut nails with knives. I'll test it doing normal things that a knife of that size and design is expected to do.

What I've found is that you don't have to do destructive tests to know whether the heat treat is good or bad. A bad heat treat shows up pretty fast. I did the harder, abusive tests only after it was clear that the heat treat was bad doing normal tasks. Destructive tests do have a place in knife testing -- they can give us critical information -- but I have no intention of ruining the replacement knife. I'm hoping that it will be a beautiful, well-designed knife that I can use and enjoy often.

braillediver · Aug 5, 2015

Thanks for the complete journey. Just makes me more interested in getting a Winkler Belt Knife.

bodog · Aug 5, 2015

Twindog said:
The edge angle on the knife in the OP is a little over 50 degrees inclusive. The edge shoulders are 0.050 inches. So the edge geometry is robust, although the blade geometry is more acute.

The only reason I tried to cut the nail was because the blade was already ruined at that point, and it didn't really matter -- it was just a way to get more information.

I'm pretty sure that the knife Daniel is sending back to me will be perfect, and I don't cut nails with knives. I'll test it doing normal things that a knife of that size and design is expected to do.

What I've found is that you don't have to do destructive tests to know whether the heat treat is good or bad. A bad heat treat shows up pretty fast. I did the harder, abusive tests only after it was clear that the heat treat was bad doing normal tasks. Destructive tests do have a place in knife testing -- they can give us critical information -- but I have no intention of ruining the replacement knife. I'm hoping that it will be a beautiful, well-designed knife that I can use and enjoy often.

Cool, thanks for the info and look forward to the upcoming review. I'm pretty interested in how 80CRV2 performs. The DW knives (and hawks) I've held all felt great in hand, though you're right, they were all pretty thick behind the edge.

He didn't happen to quote a hardness did he?

Omega Leather Works · Aug 6, 2015

I don't think your methods were out of line at all considering the circumstances. I'd have done the same as more information is always a good thing, especially when the blade is clearly already pooched.

Daniel, I have a great deal of respect for your reply and follow through. To me if you take away all of the posts besides the op and yours I'd say this whole thing was handled perfectly.

Thanks to both of you guys.