Winter backpacking- wood processing saws/axes?

[seanp]

For the OP I have a couple of comments:

Had a real interesting experience this weekend on an overnight hunt in 5f/-15c. Got in the woods around 5pm and had an incredibly vigorous 5 hour snowshoe up some very steep mountainous terrain...

Starting a hike in the back country, especially the mountains, at 17:00 sounds like really bad planning and recklessness. Sunset in the mountains here - Alberta Rockies - was within four minutes of then last weekend. And it gets very dark in these mountains after the sun sets. Even if you have some pretty good head lamps, I would think that humping it up a mountain would be pretty dangerous under those circumstances. If you are going to do something like that regularly, I would suggest that you invest in a personal distress beacon before you worry about a folding saw, so that SAR can more readily locate your body at the bottom of the ravine you slid into. That being said:

What do you folks find works as a BACKPACKABLE winter wood-processing solution?

For years, I strapped nothing but an Estwing axe to my pack and used that. Until one rather memorable trip with some friends resulted in a need to make and sustain a good fire. Very difficult with just an axe and no dead-fall above the snow. After we survived and made it back I bought a 26" bow saw from Canadian Tire, I think for $15-$20. That was many years ago. The Estwing pretty much only sees use when I am car-camping now, but the bow saw still gets carried backpacking.

Even though it is a full size, non-folding saw, it has negligible weight. The blade can be removed, and both pieces can be lashed to your pack in various ways. The 26" blade goes through good sized logs or trees very quickly.

A hatchet replaced the axe. I have several, and the one I use currently is a Fiskars. These days though... I am starting to wonder about replacing the hatchet with a smaller pocket axe or mini-hatchet for all that I use it for now.

There's no need for fires in the winter.

I would disagree with you, and I would think that the majority of other people would as well. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that winter "is" the need for fire. Although it is true that one could probably get by by wearing the proper gear and having a properly insulated shelter, the majority of us are more comfortable living in a home, and working in structures that are heated. Usually by fire. Even the Inuit have pretty much abandoned igloos heated by oil lamps these days.

In the back country, there are many reasons for building fires in the winter.

 

[NeedItCheaper]

I have been on a few winter camp outs this year, started with just an inch of snow, then moved to a couple inches. In my last trip the final day had over 5 inches on the ground. You do need a fire for multi-day trips. You need it to dry your clothes, boil water, stay warm, give your self a general pick-me-up. Things like Food, water, and fire have been listed as the top most positive boosters someone in a semi-survival situation has mentioned in media reports. I love fires in the winter.

I would say over and over again I find that an axe is less work than a saw. And every time I have ever seen someone try to "Prove" the saw is better, they always have the worst technique on the planet, there axe is not sharp, the axe itself is actually made for splitting and not chopping, and the quality of the axe in general is just plain horrible.

If you wanna talk/debate, then we can do that, but......... For the individual, there never is an argument, there is no debate. If you are asking the question to yourself, it means you haven't done it. If you have done it many times, then you will without a doubt find a solution. It's not a hard debate, in application the answers show itself to you.

As for batoning. I use to be really, REALLY into it. But since I started actually putting my money where my mouth is, I have completely stopped doing it. I still use a 1/4inch blade for just-in-case reasons, but I don't think it is necessary.


Edit: I didn't notice before, the OP talked about a full size axe....... What? You really don't need it. A 20 inch axe with a 2ib head is plenty.

 

[fmajor007]

With modern-day equipment a fire is not necessary.

Maybe for some who don't have enough experience backpacking or mountaineering a fire seems necessary, but today's equipment allows for non-fire camping.

 

[stabman]

With modern-day equipment a fire is not necessary.

Maybe for some who don't have enough experience backpacking or mountaineering a fire seems necessary, but today's equipment allows for non-fire camping.

Unless it's electrically heated, today's equipment cannot keep my hands and feet from freezing.
Apparently my circulation is okay, but the doctor had to admit that my extremities are colder than they should be, for no good reason she can figure out.

So I just make a fire.
Fire good.

 

[Kirk D]

Unless it's electrically heated, today's equipment cannot keep my hands and feet from freezing.
Apparently my circulation is okay, but the doctor had to admit that my extremities are colder than they should be, for no good reason she can figure out.

So I just make a fire.
Fire good.

K Duckys Brother here... Todays equipment? Todays equipment is THE best thats ever been avail. This is absolutely untrue as well as ill informed. I've not built a fire while winter backpacking in over 20yrs. I've YET to have issues being cold while sleeping..or hiking for that matter. Just takes the correct gear and knowledge to use it correctly.

 

[stabman]

This is absolutely untrue as well as ill informed.

Sorry, but for me it is true.
I'm inside right now, the temperature is at 25 Celsius, and my feet are very cold to the touch.

But I understand...many people cannot get the idea that what is true for them may not be true for others.

 

[Kirk D]

Ops. Sorry lol. Fair enough.

 

[NeedItCheaper]

K Duckys Brother here... Todays equipment? Todays equipment is THE best thats ever been avail. This is absolutely untrue as well as ill informed. I've not built a fire while winter backpacking in over 20yrs. I've YET to have issues being cold while sleeping..or hiking for that matter. Just takes the correct gear and knowledge to use it correctly.

Ill informed? 20yrs in winter camping? I love the ego baited comments. If you knew enough, you don't need it. And I never needed it. I've been doing this since before you were born. Lol, omg I love it.



I'll entertain this for just a moment. Post some pictures of your gear. Don't tell use about some wool you wear, or your $1000 down sleeping bag. Post the pictures and tell us all what an expert like you actually wears. And post what you claim the temperature is, and how long you stayed in it. Again, post the pictures, because if you can't do that, then I vote you made it all up.

 

[sideways]

There was probably a bit of a misunderstanding around the words "todays equipment". One meant "not even todays equipments can keep me warm" and the other took that to mean that "todays equipment is somehow inferior to the equipment of days gone by". That is my guess anyway.

As for is a fire necessary or not that depends on what classifies as a fire. Is a campstove a fire? I think a campstove is necessary. I would not want to be out in the cold without hot meals. However I would say that an open fire or tent heater is not strictly necessary given the right equipment and preparations. People have walked to the poles and as far as I know they were not lugging around wood for fires or fuel for heaters with the exception of their camp stoves.

 

[lmalterna]

"But I understand...many people cannot get the idea that what is true for them may not be true for others."

This one simple statement defies the logic of many and leads to the misunderstandings that divide many.- NOT just as applied to this thread but to nearly every subject.

For my own opinion of the OP's question. I have never used that Destrud saw but I like the looks of it- compact, few moving parts, easy to employ with gloves.
I would want a bow saw- 24" is a good size and a 2.5 head "boys" axe on a haft from 26-30" long depending on the size of the man swinging it. I am 5'10" so 26-28 suits me.

I do not bemoan those who would forego a fire, I just choose another way.

Bill

 

[sideways]

Heh, I totally forgot about replying to the OP's post.

Assuming I was hiking and preparing the wood on site I agree with Imalterna. I would pack a full size bow saw (like that folding dustrude one) and a medium size hatchet.

That said winter requires a lot of wood so I split and preposition the wood for the cabin and regular camping haunts well before the temperature hits freezing.

 

[stabman]

There was probably a bit of a misunderstanding around the words "todays equipment". One meant "not even todays equipments can keep me warm" and the other took that to mean that "todays equipment is somehow inferior to the equipment of days gone by". That is my guess anyway.

That sounds about right.
Communication sometimes goes awry.

 

[fmajor007]

"But I understand...many people cannot get the idea that what is true for them may not be true for others."

This one simple statement defies the logic of many and leads to the misunderstandings that divide many.- NOT just as applied to this thread but to nearly every subject.

For my own opinion of the OP's question. I have never used that Destrud saw but I like the looks of it- compact, few moving parts, easy to employ with gloves.
I would want a bow saw- 24" is a good size and a 2.5 head "boys" axe on a haft from 26-30" long depending on the size of the man swinging it. I am 5'10" so 26-28 suits me.

As I mentioned on p1, I really, really like my Dustrude saw. It is very easy to take from packed configuration to ready-to-use in minute or two (never actually set up a timer). Because it has a 24" blade replacements are easy to source. The only thing I'm concerned with after some use with it is maintaining the wooden handle. I'm thinking to "SnoSeal" it, but don't know if that's the best sealant for this application or not.

I do not bemoan those who would forego a fire, I just choose another way.

Bill

And NOW we're really talking! This gets to the heart of my (slightly) antagonistic comment.

I've winter "camped" for coming up on 3 decades and for the most part don't make fires in the winter. However, my version of winter camping usually includes snowshoeing in miles from plowed roads, sometimes requiring technical mountaineering equipment, my down-insulated garments/sleeping bag, lots of Coleman fuel for my stove, etc. I'm usually never cold for long and it's always a joy.

I do really like campfires and certainly don't disdain them; unfortunately, I've found the hassle of cleaning up cooking pots/pans and keeping those things packed away so as to not get everything else soot-covered is a pain in the backside to the point I'd rather not deal with a fire for a week or so in the back-country. For shorter little jaunts I now bring along my Kelly Kettle which, while it gets soot-covered on the inside, is easy and pleasant to use. If I decide a larger fire would be nice, it's easy to take coals from the burning-cup and get a blaze going from that.

Another consideration is that I don't want to risk damaging my down parka from stray campfire sparks - that would be a huge bummer - and I don't have a suitable wool coat for such adventures. Soooo, while campfires *are* nice, it's been my experience that they are most usually a luxury for my winter camping needs.

 

[sodak]

One of the best discussions of building fires for winter camping is Mors Korchanski's book. One of the best bushcraft books I've ever read. He really gets into detail about fire making and many different types of fires.

But he's only been doing it 50 or 60 years, so undoubtably he doesn't have enough experience…. Yeah right...

 

[pinnah]

There's no need for fires in the winter. Unless it's the only approach one is aware of.

I would disagree with you, and I would think that the majority of other people would as well. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that winter "is" the need for fire. Although it is true that one could probably get by by wearing the proper gear and having a properly insulated shelter, the majority of us are more comfortable living in a home, and working in structures that are heated. Usually by fire. Even the Inuit have pretty much abandoned igloos heated by oil lamps these days.

In the back country, there are many reasons for building fires in the winter.

Heh. Maybe you need to expand your set of "other people" a bit?

Suggest you hang out at the AMC's Pinkham Notch this January, which is one of the busiest winter starting points I know of in New England and take a poll of how many parties will be building fires as a part of their winter trip. I'll wager that fewer than 5% of the parties in the Whites at any given time during the winter make open fires.

Nothing wrong with fires, mind you, provided the land you're on can sustain it and it's legal and all. But to say that fire is *needed* for backcountry winter travel is just... well... it's absurd really. No offense meant by that. It's just that it completely flies in the face of everything that is known and is repeatedly demonstrated by the modern (as in post 1960) climbing and ski touring community. The core of the approach is high loft sleeping bags, high loft parkas, tents (or tarps) and camp stoves (portable fires, if you will).

Please note, this does not mean that fire is wrong headed in anyway. But there are a lot of cons associated with it and a lot of upside to using stoves.

IMO, this is best thought of as a both/and thing. The skills needed for good, "bet your life on it" stove craft is just as important as good fire craft. IMO, competent winter backcountry travelers should be able to master both.

 

[pinnah]

Unless it's electrically heated, today's equipment cannot keep my hands and feet from freezing.
Apparently my circulation is okay, but the doctor had to admit that my extremities are colder than they should be, for no good reason she can figure out.

My understanding and experience is that unless there is something odd medically going on, cold hands and feet is a sign that the body core is running cold. Or, in the other direction, for folks without medical issues, keeping the feet and hands warm while winter camping with no fire is really about keeping the body core warm. This centers on warm food (camp stove), shelter (tent) and managing clothing well.

I know folks who suffer from chronically cold hands and feet. Reynaud's Syndrome, diabetes and prior frostbite damage are all culprits I'm aware of.

 

[pinnah]

One of the best discussions of building fires for winter camping is Mors Korchanski's book. One of the best bushcraft books I've ever read. He really gets into detail about fire making and many different types of fires.

But he's only been doing it 50 or 60 years, so undoubtably he doesn't have enough experience…. Yeah right...

I don't understand where this is coming from? Did somebody suggest that fires are wrong? The only thing that's been said in this thread is that they aren't *NEEDED*. It's beyond me why this has been upsetting to people.

Now... there are plenty of places where fires make no sense in the winter, especially near or above treeline in the mountains. Another is in high use areas where wood harvesting for fires is either prohibited or discouraged. Korchanski's books are based on his experiences in the Canadian Boreal. Can't really do that in the USFS National Forests in New Hampshire and Vermont though. It's just way too destructive and low impact approaches (stove, tent) make much more sense.

 

[KDucky's brother]

Besides other reasons mentioned, one of my personal reasons for not building fires anymore(clarification:I'm talking specifically when backpacking) ..is that I almost always camp off trail in wilderness areas via bushwacking. By doing so, I'm rewarded with pristine campsites and the awesome solitude it can offer, with almost always killer views. In my view, it'd be pretty hypercritical for me to demand such a site, and then turn around and build a fire there. Besides the immediate impact(yes I practice low-impact camping regardless of the activity), it also in turn can and will, promote others to camp there. Next thing you know 2 years later, its a beat down high impact mud hole.

High impact campsites? ..have at it. I won't camp there tho if I'm backpacking, unless I had no choice(meaning designated campsites. very common. especially out west). Aside from doing the AT thru it recently..thats THE main reason I don't otherwise backpack the Smoky Mtn Nat Park(which I live adjacent to). Its all 100% designated camping "areas"(where theres a huge chance other groups are camping right there on top of you). Fortunately, I'm surrounded by at least 5-6 designated US Forest service wilderness lands.

Saying all that, because I live in the mtns where we can still do some things. The wife and I build fires pretty much weekly in our fire pit/gathering area along side a creek just 50 yards from the house. Nothing like a good fire while hanging out with friends and family.

Hell, and I heat with wood only. I have a wood stove going 24/7 for about 4 months out of the yr. The stove is going right now. Heres part of my chores yesterday. Moving wood into the mud room for the next week. I'd just finished shooting the AK lol.

 

[Shotgun]

'll entertain this for just a moment. Post some pictures of your gear. Don't tell use about some wool you wear, or your $1000 down sleeping bag. Post the pictures and tell us all what an expert like you actually wears. And post what you claim the temperature is, and how long you stayed in it. Again, post the pictures, because if you can't do that, then I vote you made it all up.

Just do a google search on UL'ing. You'll find tons of gear lists of people who hike in all weather with no fires. I've met backpackers who have written backpacking travel guides who don't use fires and carry nothing more than a dull SAK classic year round. This isn't something he pulled out of his bum, it's so common that it doesn't even need proving IMO.

 

[KDucky's brother]

Ill informed? 20yrs in winter camping? I love the ego baited comments. If you knew enough, you don't need it. And I never needed it. I've been doing this since before you were born. Lol, omg I love it.



I'll entertain this for just a moment. Post some pictures of your gear. Don't tell use about some wool you wear, or your $1000 down sleeping bag. Post the pictures and tell us all what an expert like you actually wears. And post what you claim the temperature is, and how long you stayed in it. Again, post the pictures, because if you can't do that, then I vote you made it all up.

haha this is funny. Sorry, but I don't use wool, sans my hiking socks. Too heavy, holds water, and takes forever to dry. Yes it still works when wet. But fleece does it all better. Altho I only use 1 mirco fleece tech T in my layering system. Fleece is too bulky for my taste when UL hiking.

I can carry 10lbs total(befero food/water), including fuel. And go on 4 day 3 season solo backpack trip, and live large the whole time. That includes 1lb 13oz frameless ruck, 4 top layers, 3 bottom(inludes top/bottom shells), filter, 16oz down bag, 4 season floorless shelter, 3/4 ultralite sleep pad that goes with my most awesome ultralite chair kit, ti power giga stove, 3 pc snowpeak ti cookset, ti spoon, 3 ltr bladder, and all the small chit. lw gloves, fleece cap, 2 led headlamps, spare socks, med kit, Delica and Farmer SAK combo, etc.

4 days winter condition above the treeline at 11,600' when it never gets above freezing, I go about 22lbs. And live large. Even hike in at night while solo. No fires.

And I couldn't care less what you believe.

And I bet I'm older then you.