Winter camping comfort at night

[awestib]

Hi all,
it's winter here in Calgary/Alberta and we all know what that means in terms of outdoors activities! Snow shooing, skiing, etc. And - camping ??

I started to be interested in winter camping only a short while ago and after one night out in Kananaskis country, I may change my mind unless I'll get some encouragement here !!

So, last weekend my buddy Jim and me went out for one night camping. It was -22 degrees C, that's -8 degrees F. I had a 3 season tent, a down bag rated for -30dC, good insulation on the ground with a thermarest inflatable mat and a foam mat underneath. long jons, fleece pants, down socks, long sleeve undershirt, fleece jacket and baklava wearing during the night in the sleeping bag. I build up quite a bit of snow around the tent, approx. 1/3 of the height. It was virtually wind still inside the tent with some ventilation. We got warmed up quite a bit before we went into the bag for the night rest and I filled up an Algene bottle with boiling water that I took into my bag aswell, covered it with a large sock.

Even though I was not freezing, I was also not quite comfortable during the night. I slept on/off, chills here and there.

So my question is (I know, stupid you, just don't do it): Considering that I don't want to use a canvas tent with a wood fire stove inside just yet and no "artificial" heater for a tent either, what else advice could you guys give me to improve the comfort? I guess there is a big individual difference in temp. perception and maybe I am not made for it. However, Jim is a total different phneotype than me and he was not comfortable either. Shall I try rather a tarp setup with an opening towards the camp fire that I maintain over night?

Thanks everybody, looking forward to it!!

p.s. we had a good meal before bedtime and I had a snickers by my side! Something I could not do during the summer given the bears here!!

 

[panzertroop]

Insulated pad helps allot! Something like the Big Agnes Down pad. Hot water bottle in the bottom of your bag. A candle lantern in the tent to take the chill off. Some tricks.

 

[Alberta Ed]

I was comfortable at -45 up in the Tombstone Valley (Yukon) one November about six years ago, on a caribou hunt. We had a 10 x 10 wall tent (well banked with snow) with an airtight wood stove, but it got so cold anyway once the stove went out that our eggs froze in the cooler. My buddy slept in his Arctic weight sleeping bag on a cot and froze -- no insulation underneath. I had a foam mat and Thermarest mattress for ground insulation, and a synthetic mummy bag rated to 0 C. (-20 F.), inside a four-pound down bag. Wore Polarfleece toque, long johns and long sleeve top and synthetic socks, and was as cozy as a bug in a rug. Sometimes wearing too much inside your bag can actually make you colder (especially cotton, which absorbs moisture and reduces the insulation effectiveness).

 

[sideways]

My winter camping has been done with larger groups in canvas tents heated with wood. I was pretty comfortable. Not what you wanted to hear I know. Winter camping in an unheated tent is not something I am too keen to try.

My warmest winter nights outdoors were spent in 8-16 person tents full to capacity with bodies. Lots of shared body heat and lots of people to take a rotation feeding the fire and prepping firewood. The tent floor was covered in wooden pallets (placed at the site during the summer) to raise you up off the ground and allow warm air from the stove to circulate. On the pallets went a ground sheet and thick sleeping pads.

The only thing I can think of that would sap heat from you effectively with that many layers is the ground. I suppose you might try one of those folding army bunks (but watch that metal!) and a few mats on top of that. Or layering some branches under your tent.

Could moisture be a problem? If you were sweating when you entered the bag that might have got the down wet.... were you breathing into the bag? the condensation might have got the down wet...

 

[JV3]

your thermarest inflatable and foam mat is likely not enough. what's the r-value of that thermarest? my exped downmat 9 has an r-value of 8 (one of the highest rated pads i've seen and it packs down to the size of a football).

also, kifaru, seekoutside, titaniumgoat, ed t, etc. all make collapsible wood stoves (around the 1-5 lbs mark depending if it's titanium or stainless steel and stove size to match the shelter).

kifaru titanium oval stove (1 lb 4 oz total including the pipe):

ed t stove in action (no idea about the weight but it's stainless steel):

kifaru large stove - good enough to heat a 24-man tipi:

and you don't need a canvas tent to have a wood stove either...here's my kifaru supertarp with annex (made of silnylon and just over a lb). that hole is for the stove pipe and it's made of a fire-proof material. with that titanium oval stove above, the complete setup is under 3 lbs for a fully heated shelter for two people.

 

[KDucky's brother]

I love snow camping. Backpacked many times solo in temps around zero with big winds sometimes up to 50-60mph sustained. Not much colder then that tho.

I don't build fires.

I use a thin Thermarest full length.

Use a 15* bag(for single digit temps outside the tent) and I'm ok concerning being warm enough.

Usd a 25* bag down to about 15-18*.

Wear light or mid weight base layer. Layer over that if needed.

Wear good warm head gear.

Wear light weight gloves.

Wear 2nd pair of unused dry socks(by themselves. use the old hiked in pair next morning for hiking. repeat).

Hard candy before sleep.

Keep a pee bottle (old big mouth Gatorade bottle or equal. don't have to leave tent or maybe even not have to get completely out of the bag)

Close your tent off best you can to capture heat.


Typical snow camping trip in April. I'm breaking trail. Camped at 11,600' for 3 days, then moved. 7 days total above treeline.






Over those 3 days, we did some close by summits up around 13.5kish.


Bivy'd one night at 10.2k. Std ultralite pads.

 

[pinnah]

Sounds like you're on the right track, actually. Kducky has the track well trodden down.

Lot's of places for chills to set in. Need to be hyper-aware of where you're loosing the heat and how.

In camp (not when hiking, but in camp) I like to wear a windshirt over my inner poly layer. I find that if I don't, every bit of movement exhausts the moist micro-climate near my skin and the evaporative cooling causes me to chill. The Marmot Driclime windshirt is a safe bet, but really any nylon windshirt will do. Stephenson's still sells their VBL shirt and that's killer warm for the weight, again, only in camp. This also helps (doesn't stop, but helps) slow down sweat capture by your sleeping bag.

Balaclava on the head. Head gasket.

Other than this, you have to ask, where was the heat going? Try to remember. Hip cold when sleeping on your back? It's your matteres system. Etc...

 

[gadgetgeek]

a couple of things to try. one is fewer clothes, the tendency is to feel bundled up and snug, but that can restrict circulation, leading to feeling chilled (even though you are not really cold) And before you get into your bag, be sure you are absolutely dry. if you are too warm when you get in, the sweat will make life uncomfortable. you may want to consider a liner for your bag. I've had good success with MECs silk liner. my big bag has a nylon inner liner, so it traps moisture next to the skin, making me feel chilled. the silk just allows the moisture to wick away. The seams on mine are starting to pull, but I figure I've given it the equivalent of ten years use. Another recommendation is the MEC brand merino wool baselayers. I used them while working in Mordor (north of fort mac) and they were very pleasant. (yes I stayed in my truck all day, but keeping the engine running wasn't always an option.

How vented was the tent? the humidity from your breath can quickly make it feel much cooler. And as for the snickers, still be careful with that, bears do get up to roam around from time to time, given kananaskis's weird weather.

 

[zcd]

You can also try reflecting heat back downwards by lining the inside of your tent with mylar blankets. I haven't tried this personally, but I've seen some folks attach them to the downside of their tarps..

 

[mewolf1]

A -30c bag should be enough bag for those temps. All your gear and system sound good to me. Are you sure it wasn't colder that night than you thought?

An insulated bivy sack can increase you bag temp rating quite nicely, like with clothing, add layers.
I also pull my head into the bag (barring a gas problem ) so I'm not breathing cold air. Seems to help.

 

[Codger_64]

Ya'll guys got me turning up the heat here. I'll double down on the candle lantern idea in a small tent. It puts out more btu's of heat than you would think. I've also been known to lay an insulated coat over the top of my bag, as long as it doesn't compress the bag insulation. And the pee bottle makes good recycled heat in the foot of your bag. Just be sure it seals well.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Could moisture be a problem? If you were sweating when you entered the bag that might have got the down wet.... were you breathing into the bag? the condensation might have got the down wet...

If you were alive, condensation from perspiration (in some amount 24/7/365) would have been absorbed by the down during your occupancy of the sleeping bag.

Still, all that insulation should have kept you warm enough for one night. One or more of the issues noted above is/are probably applicable.

Insulation under you is, for the most part, as effective at its thickness. Compare thickness over you vs. under you with this setup. What does it measure, respectively?

 

[awestib]

I was comfortable at -45 up in the Tombstone Valley (Yukon) one November about six years ago, on a caribou hunt. We had a 10 x 10 wall tent (well banked with snow) with an airtight wood stove, but it got so cold anyway once the stove went out that our eggs froze in the cooler. My buddy slept in his Arctic weight sleeping bag on a cot and froze -- no insulation underneath. I had a foam mat and Thermarest mattress for ground insulation, and a synthetic mummy bag rated to 0 C. (-20 F.), inside a four-pound down bag. Wore Polarfleece toque, long johns and long sleeve top and synthetic socks, and was as cozy as a bug in a rug. Sometimes wearing too much inside your bag can actually make you colder (especially cotton, which absorbs moisture and reduces the insulation effectiveness).

I like the idea with the sleeping bag in a sleeping bag. Inside down, outside synthetic. And I agree, too many layers may be counterproductive.

 

[awestib]

your thermarest inflatable and foam mat is likely not enough. what's the r-value of that thermarest? my exped downmat 9 has an r-value of 8 (one of the highest rated pads i've seen and it packs down to the size of a football).

I agree, my back and hip area got cold first, so likely not enough insulation to the ground. Will look into this down mat 9! Thanks for the pictures. A stove is the way to go eventually!

 

[awestib]

I love snow camping. Backpacked many times solo in temps around zero with big winds sometimes up to 50-60mph sustained. Not much colder then that tho.

I don't build fires.

I use a thin Thermarest full length.

Use a 15* bag(for single digit temps outside the tent) and I'm ok concerning being warm enough.

Usd a 25* bag down to about 15-18*.

Wear light or mid weight base layer. Layer over that if needed.

Wear good warm head gear.

Wear light weight gloves.

Wear 2nd pair of dry socks(use old pair next morning for hiking. repeat).

Hard candy before sleep.

Keep a pee bottle (old big mouth Gatorade bottle or equal. don't have to leave tent or maybe even completely out of the bad)

Close your tent off best you can to capture heat.

Thanks for the pictures! I did not wear gloves during that night and now I remember that this indeed was an issue!

 

[awestib]

Sounds like you're on the right track, actually. Kducky has the track well trodden down.

Lot's of places for chills to set in. Need to be hyper-aware of where you're loosing the heat and how.

In camp (not when hiking, but in camp) I like to wear a windshirt over my inner poly layer. I find that if I don't, every bit of movement exhausts the moist micro-climate near my skin and the evaporative cooling causes me to chill. The Marmot Driclime windshirt is a safe bet, but really any nylon windshirt will do. Stephenson's still sells their VBL shirt and that's killer warm for the weight, again, only in camp. This also helps (doesn't stop, but helps) slow down sweat capture by your sleeping bag.

Balaclava on the head. Head gasket.

Other than this, you have to ask, where was the heat going? Try to remember. Hip cold when sleeping on your back? It's your matteres system. Etc...

Good advice hear pinnah! Yes, any kind of movement caused some "chill". Will try those wind shirts for sure. And, I mentioned it above already, the hips got cold so yes, I believe the insulation from the ground was not sufficient.

 

[Sullie]

Calgary? Come on, that's where we take a winter vacation for some balmy weather Try wearing your gear outside while sedentary-take up bird watching for a day and see how you feel. You may find some of your gear isn't as effective as you thought. I second the guys who say using less layers-but good layers. This is where experimenting helps to find out what works for you. You don't want everything tight against you, And definitely ground insulation. That alone will make a huge difference-the ground will suck the heat right out of you.
Didn't get out last winter(first time in years) but hoping to this winter. Have a good one!

 

[awestib]

a couple of things to try. one is fewer clothes, the tendency is to feel bundled up and snug, but that can restrict circulation, leading to feeling chilled (even though you are not really cold) And before you get into your bag, be sure you are absolutely dry. if you are too warm when you get in, the sweat will make life uncomfortable. you may want to consider a liner for your bag. I've had good success with MECs silk liner. my big bag has a nylon inner liner, so it traps moisture next to the skin, making me feel chilled. the silk just allows the moisture to wick away. The seams on mine are starting to pull, but I figure I've given it the equivalent of ten years use. Another recommendation is the MEC brand merino wool baselayers. I used them while working in Mordor (north of fort mac) and they were very pleasant. (yes I stayed in my truck all day, but keeping the engine running wasn't always an option.

How vented was the tent? the humidity from your breath can quickly make it feel much cooler. And as for the snickers, still be careful with that, bears do get up to roam around from time to time, given kananaskis's weird weather.

Yeah, those bears come out sometimes ...
Good stuff with the silk liner. I have a thin fleece liner but I forgot to bring it. I wonder if it worked similar to the silk?! I think the tent was not vented enough since I thought I "seal" it as much as possible. Everything had a thin layer of ice next morning - so yes, moisture was an issue indeed.

 

[awestib]

You can also try reflecting heat back downwards by lining the inside of your tent with mylar blankets. I haven't tried this personally, but I've seen some folks attach them to the downside of their tarps..

I actually brought one of those emergency blankets but ended up not really knowing what to use them for. It is very light and good thought to use it in the tent as a first layer on the ground.

 

[awestib]

A -30c bag should be enough bag for those temps. All your gear and system sound good to me. Are you sure it wasn't colder that night than you thought?

An insulated bivy sack can increase you bag temp rating quite nicely, like with clothing, add layers.
I also pull my head into the bag (barring a gas problem ) so I'm not breathing cold air. Seems to help.

I could have been colder since we were only able to check the temp next morning when we got back to the car. Same as above mewolf1, a bag in a bag sounds a good idea to me. Maybe a down bag in a bivy and just a low tarp for extra rain/snow protection.