WWlll Is Being Televised

[cavetech]

Nope.

The Isralis won't be allowed to do the job they really need to do.

 

[Fiddleback]

"PS Grim optimism, or better yet, a deep, almost hidden, faith that, contrary to the sight of one's eyes, all will be ultimately well. I think that made the difference between Aragorn and Denethor, and how they carried themselves, in the blackest and bleakest of times." gravertom

Great thought Tom. I love LOTR, the books I mean.

Also, I think there was a sense of duty, an awareness of required behavior regardless of outlook, and an acceptance that whether or not hope was vain, duty was clear.

Its funny that you use LOTR now. I think its very appropriate.

 

[cliff355]

The Isralis won't be allowed to do the job they really need to do.

Maybe not, but due to the number of arms sales to Israel in the past eight months I figured something was up. Most of this was the type of stuff dropped from planes to bust heavy infrastructure. I assumed George Bush wanted to blow up Iran but didn't think he could get Congress to go along with it, so he was going to get Israel to do it. My prediction was it would be done by the end of August.

All this Iran-backed Hezbollah activity accomplishes two things: a) takes everybody's mind off Iranian nukes and b) diverts Israeli efforts to Lebannon - buying time. Now they may have until November.

 

[Fiddleback]

Maybe not, but due to the number of arms sales to Israel in the past eight months I figured something was up. Most of this was the type of stuff dropped from planes to bust heavy infrastructure. I assumed George Bush wanted to blow up Iran but didn't think he could get Congress to go along with it, so he was going to get Israel to do it. My prediction was it would be done by the end of August.

All this Iran-backed Hezbollah activity accomplishes two things: a) takes everybody's mind off Iranian nukes and b) diverts Israeli efforts to Lebannon - buying time. Now they may have until November.

I hope you are right Cliff. I hope we don't fail to stop Iran from getting the bomb.

 

[gravertom]

Thanks for the additional thoughts about Duty, Andy.

I think it was Stonewall who used to say "Duty is ours, events are the Lord's."

That is why I tend to be against "outcome based" whatever. We can't assure outcomes. We can try to do the right thing, in any given situation. No matter how hard that may be to figure out, at times.

Sometimes, I think we know what the right thing is, but pretend that we don't, because the right thing is just too hard to try.

Tom

 

[Artfully Martial]

I guess I'm more optimistic than most.

I think, for the most part, everything's going to be okay.

As per the biologist, evolutionarily speaking, suicide bombers can be "fitter" (used in the biology sense) than other people in the area under two conditions: if they have kids already and their family is paid or taken care of for the act.

The bettered lifestyle of the children in the culture (probably materialistically) might better the reproduction of those kids.

Even without kids, if your genetic family is taken care of financially after the act, the greater portion of the genes will be more likely to reproduce (since you share the vast majority of them with your parents/sisters/brothers).

Basically, what I'm getting at, is that suicide bombing is not evolutionarily unsound. Well, from a Dawkin's perspective.


I don't think religion is to blame for anything here. We have to take responsibility for our own actions. We can't attribute them to a religious leader or even author. We always have a decision.

 

[munk]

Basically, what I'm getting at, is that suicide bombing is not evolutionarily unsound. Well, from a Dawkin's perspective.>>>>>>

It's unsound for those doing the suicide...It's unsound to go after civilian targets- gets wrath from most of world. It is only 'sound' in the sense we have enough 'bodies' to go around. Good for ants; not so sound for humans.


munk

 

[Svashtar]

Basically, what I'm getting at, is that suicide bombing is not evolutionarily unsound. Well, from a Dawkin's perspective.>>>>>>

It's unsound for those doing the suicide...It's unsound to go after civilian targets- gets wrath from most of world. It is only 'sound' in the sense we have enough 'bodies' to go around. Good for ants; not so sound for humans.


munk

It is sound in the sense that it is the one offense that is just about unstoppable. Your only defense is to kill anyone that appears to be suicidal and coming for you, which means you lose the PR war. It's lose/lose for the Israelis. On the other hand, the people committing suicide have a neurotic certainty that they are in the right and doing "God's Will", and suicide bombers are about the only weapon they have in abundance compared to the West.

There is no solution IMO. Each one killed by the Israelis in their defense is hailed as a martyr and 10 more spring up to replace him. As long as each culture is convinced that "God is on their side" there is no solution. The Palestinians, upon who's land modern Israel is built, will not acknowledge Israels legitimate right to exist and keep attacking them in one way or another, and the Israelis will keep defending themselves and counter-attacking. Escalation upon escalation. Personally, I predict that this will be the conflict that will ultimately lead to a nuclear war, hopefully not anytime soon though.

In the whole grand scheme of things the conflict is senseless and stupid. I was reading an article the other day that pointed out that the entire planet could be anihilated in a heartbeat by a supernova that could already have occurred hundreds of years in the past and has been rushing towards us at the speed of light for centuries, and we would never know that we are already doomed. In fact in that case we would still be looking at the star that has already gone nova, none the wiser. Considering the tiny planet we live on disputes for territory seem incredibly childish. Unfortunately, most people do not have a cosmic perspective when their homes are attacked by bombs.

Norm

 

[munk]

Not so. Eventually, countries harboring terror will pay a price the pop is unwilling to pay. So there will be change.

it will be a painfull transition.



munk

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Each one killed by the Israelis in their defense is hailed as a martyr and 10 more spring up to replace him. As long as each culture is convinced that "God is on their side" their is no solution. The Palestinians, upon who's land modern Israel is built, will not acknowlegge Israels legitimate right to exist and keep attacking them in one way or another, and the Israelis will keep defending themselves and counter-attacking.

Eventually, countries harboring terror will pay a price the pop is unwilling to pay. So there will be change.

it will be a painfull transition.

Living well is the best revenge.

Is violent opposition to a stable society evolutionarily effective? Look at Israel, one of the premier nations of the world, providing First-World living conditions, a strong economy -- burdened as it is with a military needed to offset existential threats -- and cultural, scientific, and technical advancees worthy of a much larger nation.

Now look at Palestine ... ahh ... what Palestine? However hard the world offers, they refuse to accept a normal state, at peace with its neighbors. Not only Israel! The Arab states in which Palestinians still live in miserable camps somehow neglect and isolate these unfortunate psychopaths.

No. If your claim to fame is that you are obnoxious, that's how you'll be treated. And evolution has nothing to do with the individual, but with the species, or in this case, with the community. Arabs generally and Palestinian Arabs in particular suffer from their own unwillingness to cooperate, even among themselves.

By the way, Israel was not built on Arab land. It was built on land variously ruled by Canaanites, Jews, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Crusaders, Turks, and now once again by its old inhabitants -- who never completely left -- the Jews.

The land has been effectively divided between Jewish and Arab populations, but the Arabs won't settle for less than all of it. Greedy, greedy. They may end with less than none of it. This is not a religious war. It is a tribal conflict. It is a territorial dispute.

 

[Svashtar]

By the way, Israel was not built on Arab land. It was built on land variously ruled by Canaanites, Jews, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Crusaders, Turks, and now once again by its old inhabitants -- who never completely left -- the Jews.

I knew that line would get a response.

Let's just say that many Palestinians were displaced in order to make room for the state of Israel. No discussion of the situation in the middle east can be held without acknowledging that fact, at least IMO. That the Jews had a historical right to it I do not dispute, nor that the Arabs seem unable to admit that fact. However, many Palestinians were displaced, their farms and houses and lands lost, and that has led to much bitterness. That Israel also seems to periodically suffer from and commit the same stupid blunders and excesses that plague any embattled nation has not helped the situation, and has only served to make them even more enemies. The entire situation seems to me to be a true Gordian Knot that only a few eventual nuclear terrorist attacks and counter exchanges will untie.

Norm

 

[Artfully Martial]

It's unsound for those doing the suicide...It's unsound to go after civilian targets- gets wrath from most of world. It is only 'sound' in the sense we have enough 'bodies' to go around. Good for ants; not so sound for humans.

He doesn't matter. If he's already had kids, and the kids stand a significantly better chance of surviving for the act (and/or reproducing), then his evolutionary fitness is actually enhanced by suicide. And of course, the genes he shares with his family can be bettered by his suicide (hypothetically) in the long term.

I can't argue against the angering the world by killing civilians ideas, but in a competetive gene kind of thinking, it could make sense. That's way too complex for me to build into the debate...that sort of choice could have amazingly diverse consequences....of course, from the individual suicide bomber's perspective, they're all going to die soon anyway regardless of whether he fights or not (other people will be suicide bombers, and they're all going to get bombed roughly equally), well, for his kids. It's pretty obvious he'll live marginally longer if he doesn't kill himself.

There is no biology problem with suicide bombing. We scientists, I think, are forced to throw this one to the ethicists. Where there are big problems.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Let's just say that many Palestinians were displaced in order to make room for the state of Israel. No discussion of the situation in the middle east can be held without acknowledging that fact, at least IMO. That the Jews had a historical right to it I do not dispute, nor that the Arabs seem unable to admit that fact. However, many Palestinians were displaced, their farms and houses and lands lost, and that has led to much bitterness.

I consider this a seriously mistaken analysis, of the sort that has led to most of the problems in the area.

When the British Mandate for Palestine, under the League of Nations, was established, the stated purpose was to provide a national home for the Jewish people, without prejudice to the rights of the other inhabitants.

We hear talk today of the one-state solution, that Jews and Arabs should join together in one state for all its citizens. The self-evident absurdity of this lies in the decades of bitterness that have intervened since the original founding of the State of Israel as a Jewish national home.

But what really happened to the Arabs who were living there at the time? In fact, they would have had the same full civil rights as Israeli Arabs have today -- if they had stayed, and especially if they had helped to defend the land, from the invading Arab armies. But their "brothers" told them to leave, to clear the battlefield for the war to destroy the Jewish state.

Do you wonder why they were not allowed back in after the Arab armies lost?

The State of Israel was founded on land inhabited by Jews, Arabs, and other smaller groups. Even though the Arabs were offered a state of their own, sharing Palestine, they refused it. When the war began, they left. How does this equate to Arabs being displaced to make room for Israel ??? There was room enough for everyone, in one nation or in two. The Arabs chose to leave the Jewish areas, as enemies.

I have no sympathy for their embittered misery, brought on solely by their own genocidally bigoted intransigence.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

He doesn't matter. If he's already had kids, and the kids stand a significantly better chance of surviving for the act (and/or reproducing), then his evolutionary fitness is actually enhanced by suicide.

How does the father's suicide enhance the reproductive survivability of his children?

Fatherless children tend to be less fit for success in normal societies. I can't see why they would be more so in a disfunctional society. Children or siblings of suicides are more likely to commit the same act or behave rashly in combat zones than the children of better-adjusted families.

Inasmuch as the society IS disfunctional, long-term survival of any given family is questionable.

 

[Nordic Viking]

When I lived in Israel, I saw, first account, how the Israelis were turning the desert into uberous land. They would do that to the whole area of the Middle East, if nobody stopped them.

Save the Desert!

 

[Esav Benyamin]

When I lived in Israel, I saw, first account, how the Israelis were turning the desert into uberous land. They would do that to the whole area of the Middle East, if nobody stopped them.

Three men die & find themselves in an elevator -- going down. The operator is a grim-looking fellow.

The doors open and the operator kicks the Catholic out into a flaming, stinking landscape. He hits the hot coals, screaming.

The doors close and ... the elevator goes further down. The doors open and the Protestant is thrown out to his predestined punishment. The heat is searing, burning the flesh from his aching bones.

The doors close -- and the elevator descends .. and the heat is so bad the operator is sweating and the walls begin to glow. The doors open and the operator shrieks to the Jew, "Get out! I can't stand it here!"

The Jew steps out and sees a hot but green landscape with silver lines crisscrossing the countryside. "Damn you Jews", says the demon, "and your desert irrigation projects!".

 

[Artfully Martial]

Well, I'm told (perhaps incorrectly?) that the families are taken care of when they have members who committed suicide bombings. Given the insanely high young folk mortality rate, I imagine that this would significantly increase their probability of surviving. I also imagine the culture would respect the family more. These are lofty assumptions, of course, but I'm arguing in hypothesis. Suicide bombing is not inherently a bad natural selection choice. I make note of all of this early on in my conditions for this to be genetically plausible.

As per the kids being more likely to commit the act, we have to ask two more questions. Do those kids have kids by the time they do it, and are our statistics based in the US or in the extremely different culture that suicide bombings take place in? Suicide bombings certainly look different from the perspective of a member of that culture than they do from ours (otherwise, there wouldn't be any suicide bombings).

But, these are all side notes.
The argument was posed that suicide bombing was inherently bad biology, and I have shown that it is not inherently bad biology. It can and often is bad biology, but it doesn't have to be. Self sacrifice can be beneficial to the offspring, and is so in many species outside of our own. Whether it is or is not beneficial, on average, in humans, is something for sociologists to discuss and is thus outside my realm of study. I'm sure they can empirically show one way or another. But it doesn't change the thesis: suicide bombing is not necessarily bad for the individual's fitness.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Nothing is "necessarily" good or bad -- it depends on the circumstances.

The idea that suicides' families are taken care of is naive. Saddam Hussein used to give something like $25000 for each "martyrdom". I would be amazed if the family actually collected all that, or if much was siphoned off for "charity" or whatever. Teh culture is incredibly needy and corrupt.

Furthermore, as I said, and I stand by it, fatherless children are at a disadvantage. In a family-oriented culture like the Arabs have, the loss would be even more devastating. Whatever money they did get -- and money is now VERY scarce there -- would have to stand in for the now-deceased father's lifetime earnings.

Altruism has been shown to be an evolutionarily positive trait. Self-destruction as a random act of violence is not altruistic, it does not directly support the survivors, it deprives them unnecessarily.

 

[Nordic Viking]

Two things about children of suicide bombers:

1. You suicide bomb in Israel; your family loses their home. The decision is final and no correspondence is entered into.
2. Arab males growing up without male family role models are susceptable to even more brain washing / fanatiscism.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

1. You suicide bomb in Israel; your family loses their home. The decision is final and no correspondence is entered into.

Typically, the first thing a family does when it learns the dear departed martyr is now in Paradise, is to move their clothing & furniture out fast.