Zen
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Should HHDL's "The Art of Happiness" referenced above not be your cup of tea, and you insist upon being your own worst critic, you may wish to check out "Final Exit" by Derek Humphry ISBN 0-9606030-3-4.
Mr. Humphry is founder of the Hemlock Society and his practical suggestions in the book predate Dr. Kevorkian by many years.
If you think I'm kidding, go down to your local library and see the reaction you get from them.
As always, I love to tell the truth in such a way that nobody believes a word of it, even though it's all, every last bit true.
[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 01 September 1999).]
Mr. Humphry is founder of the Hemlock Society and his practical suggestions in the book predate Dr. Kevorkian by many years.
If you think I'm kidding, go down to your local library and see the reaction you get from them.
As always, I love to tell the truth in such a way that nobody believes a word of it, even though it's all, every last bit true.
[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 01 September 1999).]
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Pakcik Bill - I like Rusy's bumper sticker!
Rusty - Insyaa-Allaah! May I make a little modification to the above wordings to suite as my bumper sticker?
"ALLAH! PROTECT ME FROM YOUR *PUTATIVE* FOLLOWERS!"
But beware that "I" also can be unknowingly one of the "PUTATIVE FOLLOWERS"! "I" have to see and check again and again on the clear mirror of truth that "MY SELF" is not actually one of the "PUTATIVE FOLLOWERS"!
Once I asked my little 2nd son about which one is easier whether to become a good person or to become a bad person - he answered that it is easier to become a bad person BUT it is very hard to become a good person!
Once my peer told me that it is important to become a good person BUT it is more important to become a person that always make all the effort to become a good person.
The truth is always the truth even though it is being denied by all! The correct path is always there even though the person who follows that path has deviated at certain part of the path - it is his own personal mistake - it is wrong to say that the path is incorrect just because of that personal misake!
Once my peer told me not to hate a bad person BUT to sympathize him because of his failure to become a good person and it is a responsibility to help him attaining awareness, knowledge and strength to convert his self from a bad person to a good person.
Moslem believe Isa AS (you called him as Jesus) a prophet and Musa AS (you called him as Moses) also a prophet. Some Moslem scholars who made research on Hindu scripture believe that the founder of that original religion is Ibrahim AS (you called him as Abraham and Hindus called him as Brahma) also a prophet. Some other Moslem scholars who made research on Buddhist scripture believe that the founder of that original religion is Sidharta Gautama Buddha also a prophet. Some of the phrases in those scriptures that were reffered to belong to those prophets are interpreted by those Moslem scholars as giving the prophecy of the coming of the final prophet and messenger Mohammad SAW! Moslem always believe that Mohammad SAW is the final prophet and messenger AND Al-Qur_an is the final and complete scripture! Here I just want to clarify Moslim belief AND not to offence other belief - OK.
Rusty - Insyaa-Allaah! May I make a little modification to the above wordings to suite as my bumper sticker?
"ALLAH! PROTECT ME FROM YOUR *PUTATIVE* FOLLOWERS!"
But beware that "I" also can be unknowingly one of the "PUTATIVE FOLLOWERS"! "I" have to see and check again and again on the clear mirror of truth that "MY SELF" is not actually one of the "PUTATIVE FOLLOWERS"!
Once I asked my little 2nd son about which one is easier whether to become a good person or to become a bad person - he answered that it is easier to become a bad person BUT it is very hard to become a good person!
Once my peer told me that it is important to become a good person BUT it is more important to become a person that always make all the effort to become a good person.
The truth is always the truth even though it is being denied by all! The correct path is always there even though the person who follows that path has deviated at certain part of the path - it is his own personal mistake - it is wrong to say that the path is incorrect just because of that personal misake!
Once my peer told me not to hate a bad person BUT to sympathize him because of his failure to become a good person and it is a responsibility to help him attaining awareness, knowledge and strength to convert his self from a bad person to a good person.
Moslem believe Isa AS (you called him as Jesus) a prophet and Musa AS (you called him as Moses) also a prophet. Some Moslem scholars who made research on Hindu scripture believe that the founder of that original religion is Ibrahim AS (you called him as Abraham and Hindus called him as Brahma) also a prophet. Some other Moslem scholars who made research on Buddhist scripture believe that the founder of that original religion is Sidharta Gautama Buddha also a prophet. Some of the phrases in those scriptures that were reffered to belong to those prophets are interpreted by those Moslem scholars as giving the prophecy of the coming of the final prophet and messenger Mohammad SAW! Moslem always believe that Mohammad SAW is the final prophet and messenger AND Al-Qur_an is the final and complete scripture! Here I just want to clarify Moslim belief AND not to offence other belief - OK.
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Mohd - agree with you about putative behavior to the point that I usually rely on trusted others, not my easily misled self, to determine the rightness of my actions most of the time. Strive to do what is just, love mercy, and walk humbly. Humility comes from the Latin humus or fertile soil. The ineffable plants the seeds, I nurture them and bear such fruit as his will provides.
Our one Islamic couple in town is Pakistani. Difficult to separate cultural, religious points of view from their own personal quirks. Are more my wife's friends than mine.
When things get important, my ego seems to get told to take a long lunch break and I listen and do just that only to return to discover amazing progress has been accomplished in "my" absence. This may be akin to the "submission" I hear of in Islam. Take care, and your prayers are appreciated.
What I profess to believe seems less important to me than what I do to practice and live those beliefs, as consistently as I am given to. To me that is a daily refusal to hate, and a committment to enjoy today whether I like it or not.
[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 02 September 1999).]
Our one Islamic couple in town is Pakistani. Difficult to separate cultural, religious points of view from their own personal quirks. Are more my wife's friends than mine.
When things get important, my ego seems to get told to take a long lunch break and I listen and do just that only to return to discover amazing progress has been accomplished in "my" absence. This may be akin to the "submission" I hear of in Islam. Take care, and your prayers are appreciated.
What I profess to believe seems less important to me than what I do to practice and live those beliefs, as consistently as I am given to. To me that is a daily refusal to hate, and a committment to enjoy today whether I like it or not.
[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 02 September 1999).]
Jim March
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Mohd, a question: if this is too personal, no prob but...I've heard there is a small Islamic group that is more inclined to respect and to a limited degree incorporate bits of other faiths. I *think* they're called the "Ba'hai" or similar? I remember that Iran persecuted the hell out of 'em, despite their not exhibiting any signs of being "cultists" in a negative sense.
Your recent post and the feeling I get from you that you're not a huge fan of mixing religion and government makes me think you might be one? If so I'm somewhat curious about the group and it's origins...
If you're in an Islamic nation where it'd be dangerous to talk about this, feel free to ignore me. If you want me to delete this post entirely, drop me an EMail with the words "delete it" in there. My address is jmarch@ricochet.net - send the same message to Bill, as moderator he can do it too.
To all: no, this isn't paranoia. Iran regularly kills those guys and they're unpopular elsewhere in the Islamic nations. I think the US regularly grants them asylum, not certain.
Jim March
[This message has been edited by Jim March (edited 02 September 1999).]
Your recent post and the feeling I get from you that you're not a huge fan of mixing religion and government makes me think you might be one? If so I'm somewhat curious about the group and it's origins...
If you're in an Islamic nation where it'd be dangerous to talk about this, feel free to ignore me. If you want me to delete this post entirely, drop me an EMail with the words "delete it" in there. My address is jmarch@ricochet.net - send the same message to Bill, as moderator he can do it too.
To all: no, this isn't paranoia. Iran regularly kills those guys and they're unpopular elsewhere in the Islamic nations. I think the US regularly grants them asylum, not certain.
Jim March
[This message has been edited by Jim March (edited 02 September 1999).]
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I wonder just how many people have been killed in the name of God? Been doing it forever and it does not seem to stop. Seems a strange way of conversion to me.
Uncle Bill
Uncle Bill
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Jim - I am not a Bahai. I come from a group which normally called as "Tablighi Jamaat".
Our group concerns are on:
1) Building and strengtening our own faith in Allah.
2) Prototyping the inward and outward practices of prophet Mohammad SAW as our way of life.
3) Upgrading the spirit of solah (Islamic prayer) so that our deeds and actionsalways reflected by the real spirit and discipline of solah.
4) Striving for knowledge and rememberence of Allah in all times so that we will always aware that we are never alone but with Allah.
5) Building love, good moral and ethic in life.
6) Achieving sincereity of intention in all our deeds so that we are not doing something just to satisfy the unlimited desire of our "self"; and
7) Helping others to make full effort to become inwardly and outwardly a really good Moslem.
We believe that by building and offering goodness, the "light of our soul" will enlighten others as well - just like sunshine that lighten the darknes!
Pakcik Bill - Is that in sync with Zen?
wa-(A)llaahu-a'lam.
Our group concerns are on:
1) Building and strengtening our own faith in Allah.
2) Prototyping the inward and outward practices of prophet Mohammad SAW as our way of life.
3) Upgrading the spirit of solah (Islamic prayer) so that our deeds and actionsalways reflected by the real spirit and discipline of solah.
4) Striving for knowledge and rememberence of Allah in all times so that we will always aware that we are never alone but with Allah.
5) Building love, good moral and ethic in life.
6) Achieving sincereity of intention in all our deeds so that we are not doing something just to satisfy the unlimited desire of our "self"; and
7) Helping others to make full effort to become inwardly and outwardly a really good Moslem.
We believe that by building and offering goodness, the "light of our soul" will enlighten others as well - just like sunshine that lighten the darknes!
Pakcik Bill - Is that in sync with Zen?
wa-(A)llaahu-a'lam.
It`s been a while, but I read the Bible,parts of the koran,(Quaran),I even started the Book of Mormon.If I think of it, I can tell you something about the essentials of Zen Buddhism; if anyone is interested. To start, Zen Buddhism is a creative religion. It doesn`t come pre-packaged and labled.You can`t buy it off of the shelf like Campbells soup.
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Mohd, what you post seems to be the basic tenants of most religions.
I am certainly not a scholar of religion by any stretch of the imagination but in my search I studied the Koran, Bible, Torah, Upanishads, books on Buddhism ranging from Zen to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, and others. I finally decided they all said the same thing.
"They say the sharp edge of a razor is hard to pass over. There are many paths to salvation but the hardest of all is wisdom."
Katha Upanishads as I recall. Or maybe this old brain is just spinning out of control.
Uncle Bill
I am certainly not a scholar of religion by any stretch of the imagination but in my search I studied the Koran, Bible, Torah, Upanishads, books on Buddhism ranging from Zen to the Tibetan Book of the Dead, and others. I finally decided they all said the same thing.
"They say the sharp edge of a razor is hard to pass over. There are many paths to salvation but the hardest of all is wisdom."
Katha Upanishads as I recall. Or maybe this old brain is just spinning out of control.
Uncle Bill
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Rusty, your humor has not vanished.
Where is the escalator?
Uncle Bill
Where is the escalator?
Uncle Bill
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And, Jim, I see your humor also has not vanished.
Laughter is the best medicine.
Speaking of Zen is anyone familiar with the Zen laugh?
Uncle Bill
Laughter is the best medicine.
Speaking of Zen is anyone familiar with the Zen laugh?
Uncle Bill
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:
Perhaps it was a Zen thing when my wife and me went to dinner tonight and set behind some people that had one lady talking so fast that no one could get in a word edgewise.
The lady was talking about some book and about what some others believed and how they were all doomed to wherever.
The Zen thing?
I just laughed along with my dear wife and wondered if this lady ever said the word
LOVE.
I didn't hear that mentioned once.
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>>>>---¥vsa---->®
The civilized man sleeps behind locked doors in the city while the naked savage sleeps (with a knife) in a open hut in the jungle.
Perhaps it was a Zen thing when my wife and me went to dinner tonight and set behind some people that had one lady talking so fast that no one could get in a word edgewise.
The lady was talking about some book and about what some others believed and how they were all doomed to wherever.
The Zen thing?
I just laughed along with my dear wife and wondered if this lady ever said the word
LOVE.
I didn't hear that mentioned once.
------------------
>>>>---¥vsa---->®
The civilized man sleeps behind locked doors in the city while the naked savage sleeps (with a knife) in a open hut in the jungle.
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Yvsa, this lady has not had the benefit of spending a few days alone, standing on a hill in the Dakotas, without food or water, staring at the sun.
A month alone in an unlit room in a faraway monastery high up in the Himalayas with only a cup of rice each day and a little water will do the same thing.
When she has only herself as a listener for an extended period of time she will learn much and will never be the same or behave the same again.
Uncle Bill
A month alone in an unlit room in a faraway monastery high up in the Himalayas with only a cup of rice each day and a little water will do the same thing.
When she has only herself as a listener for an extended period of time she will learn much and will never be the same or behave the same again.
Uncle Bill
Jim March
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Hmmmm...we're starting to veer into the subject of "expansion of mind through meditation and/or deprivation", I believe the Japanese/Zen term is "Satori"? Many "monastic" type spiritual seekers in both Eastern and Western traditions report "sudden bursts of enlightenment", often with overtones of "merging with a greater all" or "becoming truly in tune with the universe".
It seems to be linked to intense concentration (meditation or prayer), sensory deprivation, fasting and isolation in the more common forms. However, some "paths" get there via sensory "overload", such as wild dancing (some Native American and African, the "Whirling Dervish" traditions, etc). Repeating sounds in a calm enviromnent is fairly common, mostly chanting, sometimes mechanically derived (prayer wheels, instruments). Rarely, direct pain is involved.
These types of experiences are so universal that there MUST be some "underlying truth" behind it. Unfortunately, I believe the "underlying truth" is purely biochemical in nature.
I say that because by accident, I've personally hit such "intense theological altered states" twice. However, it happened as I was being drugged up in preperation for surgery!!! I have very strange reactions to all types of painkiller meds, it's something I inherited and runs in the family. They often flat-out don't work in normal dosages, therefore on the operating table I floated around in a "halfway state" longer than normal and it took more drugs to put me fully under...in the meantime, I "tripped pretty good", to the point where I had a sudden "spiritual revelation" involving my own heartbeat and the universe at large.
I don't think there's a huge spiritual connection in operating tables and sodium pentathol(sp?). A much simpler explanation was that I was "just tripping". Unfortunately, the similarities between this "tripping" and various "Satori" states cannot be ignored. I don't *enjoy* the thought that some poor mystics isolate themselves and do various other odd things only to end up accidently simulating a drugged-out state with no spiritual significance but...sigh, that's sure as hell what it looks like.
Partial confirmation of this theory of mine is that a whole lot of "spiritual paths" involve hallucinagens...and they seem to "get to the same place" as the "prayer and meditation crowd". Even idiots with LSD often get "sudden revelations" of an extremely stupid nature, sometimes staring in shocked awe at something like a toilet - for hours.
I hope I haven't upset anybody here, and I'd love to see evidence I'm wrong no matter how sketchy. But...based on my own research and personal experiences, "sudden enlightenment" may be grossly overrated.
Jim March
It seems to be linked to intense concentration (meditation or prayer), sensory deprivation, fasting and isolation in the more common forms. However, some "paths" get there via sensory "overload", such as wild dancing (some Native American and African, the "Whirling Dervish" traditions, etc). Repeating sounds in a calm enviromnent is fairly common, mostly chanting, sometimes mechanically derived (prayer wheels, instruments). Rarely, direct pain is involved.
These types of experiences are so universal that there MUST be some "underlying truth" behind it. Unfortunately, I believe the "underlying truth" is purely biochemical in nature.
I say that because by accident, I've personally hit such "intense theological altered states" twice. However, it happened as I was being drugged up in preperation for surgery!!! I have very strange reactions to all types of painkiller meds, it's something I inherited and runs in the family. They often flat-out don't work in normal dosages, therefore on the operating table I floated around in a "halfway state" longer than normal and it took more drugs to put me fully under...in the meantime, I "tripped pretty good", to the point where I had a sudden "spiritual revelation" involving my own heartbeat and the universe at large.
I don't think there's a huge spiritual connection in operating tables and sodium pentathol(sp?). A much simpler explanation was that I was "just tripping". Unfortunately, the similarities between this "tripping" and various "Satori" states cannot be ignored. I don't *enjoy* the thought that some poor mystics isolate themselves and do various other odd things only to end up accidently simulating a drugged-out state with no spiritual significance but...sigh, that's sure as hell what it looks like.
Partial confirmation of this theory of mine is that a whole lot of "spiritual paths" involve hallucinagens...and they seem to "get to the same place" as the "prayer and meditation crowd". Even idiots with LSD often get "sudden revelations" of an extremely stupid nature, sometimes staring in shocked awe at something like a toilet - for hours.
I hope I haven't upset anybody here, and I'd love to see evidence I'm wrong no matter how sketchy. But...based on my own research and personal experiences, "sudden enlightenment" may be grossly overrated.
Jim March
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Jim's latest post demonstrates why he is such a valued person in these forums and it also shows one of the reasons I value him as a pal. He takes strong positions on matters that many will avoid. He forces us to think and forces some of us to respond in ways that we might not ordinarily do. He is a motivator and this makes him not only valuable but worthy.
This post may shock some people but I hope not too much.
30 years ago or so when I reached mid life I evaluated my position. I had attained a good degree of success for an engineer. I was a boss and was at the top of my pay grade. I had a new GTO, new Jeep Gladiator, a new Yamaha trail bike. I could eat lobster or abalone everyday if I so desired. I had more money than I needed, the respect of my peers, and a beautiful wife -- and I was unhappy. I had worked the better part of 20 years to arrive at a place I did not want to be. I wanted happiness and what we define as success in this country had not given me happiness so I set out on a search to find it.
My search cost me my job, marriage, all my worldly possessions I had -- but if all these things did not make me happy what good were they anyway?
I travelled far and wide in my search for inner peace and happiness and I met many various people along the way. I ate peyote, mescaline, "magic" mushrooms and LSD with hippies and Indians. And, I had some of the revelations you spoke of, Jim, but found them to be fragmented, momentary and nonrepeatable. You have heard the expression of "chasing the high?" In Nepal they call it "chasing the dragon," and you chase him until he catches you. This was not the answer for me so I went another direction.
I began to study -- three years in a metaphysical institute -- to try to learn something those before me on the same search had left behind for me. I kept studying and searching until my journey eventually took me to Nepal where I slowly discovered the answers I had been looking for. I discovered that I could go where I wanted in a way that did not require chemicals to alter my brainwaves. This "state of awareness" I will call it was clear and sharp and vibrant -- different from the chemical induced state -- and it gave me a peace and happiness that stayed rather than vanished with the diminishing effect of the chemicals.
I cannot speak for others but only from my own personal experience. The place the chemicals took me and the place I found through personal effort and perserverence are not the same place. They might seem so to some but I found them to be quite different.
What this place is and where it is I cannot explain. All I know is it is there and is available to anybody who devoutly wishes to find it. And it is well worth the effort.
Uncle Bill
This post may shock some people but I hope not too much.
30 years ago or so when I reached mid life I evaluated my position. I had attained a good degree of success for an engineer. I was a boss and was at the top of my pay grade. I had a new GTO, new Jeep Gladiator, a new Yamaha trail bike. I could eat lobster or abalone everyday if I so desired. I had more money than I needed, the respect of my peers, and a beautiful wife -- and I was unhappy. I had worked the better part of 20 years to arrive at a place I did not want to be. I wanted happiness and what we define as success in this country had not given me happiness so I set out on a search to find it.
My search cost me my job, marriage, all my worldly possessions I had -- but if all these things did not make me happy what good were they anyway?
I travelled far and wide in my search for inner peace and happiness and I met many various people along the way. I ate peyote, mescaline, "magic" mushrooms and LSD with hippies and Indians. And, I had some of the revelations you spoke of, Jim, but found them to be fragmented, momentary and nonrepeatable. You have heard the expression of "chasing the high?" In Nepal they call it "chasing the dragon," and you chase him until he catches you. This was not the answer for me so I went another direction.
I began to study -- three years in a metaphysical institute -- to try to learn something those before me on the same search had left behind for me. I kept studying and searching until my journey eventually took me to Nepal where I slowly discovered the answers I had been looking for. I discovered that I could go where I wanted in a way that did not require chemicals to alter my brainwaves. This "state of awareness" I will call it was clear and sharp and vibrant -- different from the chemical induced state -- and it gave me a peace and happiness that stayed rather than vanished with the diminishing effect of the chemicals.
I cannot speak for others but only from my own personal experience. The place the chemicals took me and the place I found through personal effort and perserverence are not the same place. They might seem so to some but I found them to be quite different.
What this place is and where it is I cannot explain. All I know is it is there and is available to anybody who devoutly wishes to find it. And it is well worth the effort.
Uncle Bill