Zero Tolerance Liner Lock Closures?

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Gideons said:
The reason the ZT 0301/3 came back for a short while is because Blue Ridge Knives, a whole sale distributor made the request to ZT.
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Good to know I had no idea. I bet the 0200 would’ve sold good again, as there’s nothing else like it in the current ZT lineup
 
I think a bit of tribal side-taking may be going on here. I know I have posted several times in thread, and once again, I'm not bashing ZT.

I will say the whole thing being a hair-on-fire situation is a bit over the top. As I have posted, none of ZTs failed on me. I would currently be totally convinced that my knives were 100% whack test passable. I've never had one fold on me short of my 350 failing a pressure test which I figured was fixed.

I think the question that many of us are asking, and by that I mean those of that aren't tossing our ZTs in the river and spitting at the utterance of their name, is why. Why is it that ZTs can fail this test? Now the validity of a spine whack is a very debatable thing. I'm not denying that it's a somewhat impractical and often abuse test. However what is it about the ZT construction/materials used that causes them to have the potential to fail a test that many other brands pass? To be honest, "just hold your knife tighter, and don't worry about it" isn't an empirical answer.

I'm honestly curious from an academic point of view. Going back to my Junkyard Dog II (which was probably my stoutest liner lock before getting into ZT), why does it pass the same tests where the 350 does not? They are both about the same weight, length, lock thickness, etc.

I really don't want get into if ZT is a bad company or not. I think they make very good knives. They use great materials and impressive designs from well regarded makers. Their fit and finish is noticeably better than what you get at the 70-100 range. However, I really do want someone with a lot more smarts than I possess to maybe put this to bed from a design standpoint. Is it the angle of the grind at the lock? The lock thickness, the degree of bend? What could correct this issue in house at ZT?

I'm really not coming down on the negative side as I WANT to keep buying ZT knives. I just expect their work to match their advertising and their warranty work to be sound. My 350 still folds under pressure (not a spine whack).
 
Horizon7 said:
What a stellar company. I spend 2.5k a year in knives. Pity they dont care about my concerns. They were my favorite company, but I won't be purchasing anymore.
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Hope they wise up and listen to you. I don't want them to go out of business from losing your sales!

Horizon7 said:
It should be pointed out that 1 of the dudes on the Knifenuts Podcast also sustained a severe injury from a brand new ZT. Everyone seems to be affected by this.
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i don't think you understand how TINY this little community of knife lovers or even Bladeforums actually is.... Most have never heard of BF. Or knifenuts. Or any of the other sites that have their experts that are trying to get eyes on their sites. And most people simply don't care about the opinions of a group they haven't heard of. One of my good friends is a Benchmade dealer (with storefront) and has been for years. He is aware that bad batches or bad products come and go from manufacturers, and if you don't like the product (including his) don't buy it. He has had a few examples of BM that he isn't happy with and will no longer order that model, or if unused, will take back a problem knife. Easy.

I don't know how many ZTs have failed, but out of hundreds of thousands of knives sold each year, how many are failing? What percentage of their production is a problem? It seems like a pretty childish knee jerk reaction to proudly swear off ZT because of YT videos and posts from people that were "previously fans, but no longer so". Don't know how that adds to any credibility. Drama, yes. Credibility, no.

So the upshot I think should be the same criteria you would use for any knife you buy. Period. If you don't like it, don't keep it. Check it out when you buy it. If you don't like it (not just for lock rock, uneven grinds, overly tight pocket clips, not hair splitting sharp on arrival, blade failure to swing freely when lock is released, wrong kind of washers at the pivot, scales didn't look the same in hand as the pictures, the box the knife was packaged in is too big, scales has the wrong texture for the knife, called manufacturer and no one seemed to care about me, etc.), just return it.

No reason to keep a poor example of cutlery simply so you can join in the bitch sessions. Since this dead horse has been beaten into a sausage of pink slime, at this point the only folks I feel bad for are like Jill, people that gave ZT a chance to make things right and they didn't. Or the guys that sent their knives in and nothing was done to them. No excuse for that.

Robert
 
midnight flyer said:
Hope they wise up and listen to you. I don't want them to go out of business from losing your sales!



i don't think you understand how TINY this little community of knife lovers or even Bladeforums actually is.... Most have never heard of BF. Or knifenuts. Or any of the other sites that have their experts that are trying to get eyes on their sites. And most people simply don't care about the opinions of a group they haven't heard of. One of my good friends is a Benchmade dealer (with storefront) and has been for years. He is aware that bad batches or bad products come and go from manufacturers, and if you don't like the product (including his) don't buy it. He has had a few examples of BM that he isn't happy with and will no longer order that model, or if unused, will take back a problem knife. Easy.

I don't know how many ZTs have failed, but out of hundreds of thousands of knives sold each year, how many are failing? What percentage of their production is a problem? It seems like a pretty childish knee jerk reaction to proudly swear off ZT because of YT videos and posts from people that were "previously fans, but no longer so". Don't know how that adds to any credibility. Drama, yes. Credibility, no.

So the upshot I think should be the same criteria you would use for any knife you buy. Period. If you don't like it, don't keep it. Check it out when you buy it. If you don't like it (not just for lock rock, uneven grinds, overly tight pocket clips, not hair splitting sharp on arrival, blade failure to swing freely when lock is released, wrong kind of washers at the pivot, scales didn't look the same in hand as the pictures, the box the knife was packaged in is too big, scales has the wrong texture for the knife, called manufacturer and no one seemed to care about me, etc.), just return it.

No reason to keep a poor example of cutlery simply so you can join in the bitch sessions. Since this dead horse has been beaten into a sausage of pink slime, at this point the only folks I feel bad for are like Jill, people that gave ZT a chance to make things right and they didn't. Or the guys that sent their knives in and nothing was done to them. No excuse for that.

Robert
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While I think you are spot on, it seems most of the concern IS that people are sending in knives for locks failing and getting them back without their being fixed. I had one of the older model ZT liner locks that would close if I pushed the spine of the blade, so I sent it in, and it was sent back to me without being repaired. It didn't stop me from buying ZT knives because I thought it must have been an isolated incident, but seeing it happening with others will certainly make me hesitate when making future purchases. One of the reasons I like ZT is their exceptional warranty.

I think all the "bitching" is because there is a lot to love about ZT, and people want to buy and enjoy them without concern. The lock issue seems very fixable since other high-end knife companies don't seem to have it. ZT being one of the biggest players in the knife world brings high expectations and a high susceptibility to criticism as well.
 
Steely_Gunz said:
I think a bit of tribal side-taking may be going on here. I know I have posted several times in thread, and once again, I'm not bashing ZT.

I will say the whole thing being a hair-on-fire situation is a bit over the top. As I have posted, none of ZTs failed on me. I would currently be totally convinced that my knives were 100% whack test passable. I've never had one fold on me short of my 350 failing a pressure test which I figured was fixed.

I think the question that many of us are asking, and by that I mean those of that aren't tossing our ZTs in the river and spitting at the utterance of their name, is why. Why is it that ZTs can fail this test? Now the validity of a spine whack is a very debatable thing. I'm not denying that it's a somewhat impractical and often abuse test. However what is it about the ZT construction/materials used that causes them to have the potential to fail a test that many other brands pass? To be honest, "just hold your knife tighter, and don't worry about it" isn't an empirical answer.

I'm honestly curious from an academic point of view. Going back to my Junkyard Dog II (which was probably my stoutest liner lock before getting into ZT), why does it pass the same tests where the 350 does not? They are both about the same weight, length, lock thickness, etc.

I really don't want get into if ZT is a bad company or not. I think they make very good knives. They use great materials and impressive designs from well regarded makers. Their fit and finish is noticeably better than what you get at the 70-100 range. However, I really do want someone with a lot more smarts than I possess to maybe put this to bed from a design standpoint. Is it the angle of the grind at the lock? The lock thickness, the degree of bend? What could correct this issue in house at ZT?

I'm really not coming down on the negative side as I WANT to keep buying ZT knives. I just expect their work to match their advertising and their warranty work to be sound. My 350 still folds under pressure (not a spine whack).
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I'd bet a lot of money it's due to 2 major factors: not having a repeatable way of ensuring proper geometry on the locking liners/inserts, and not having enough lockbar tension. On some of their knives I've taken apart, these seem to be contributing factors. I'd also bet that the lockbar tension is set lower intentionally make the knives flip well.
 
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jstn said:
While I think you are spot on, it seems most of the concern IS that people are sending in knives for locks failing and getting them back without their being fixed. I had one of the older model ZT liner locks that would close if I pushed the spine of the blade, so I sent it in, and it was sent back to me without being repaired. It didn't stop me from buying ZT knives because I thought it must have been an isolated incident, but seeing it happening with others will certainly make me hesitate when making future purchases. One of the reasons I like ZT is their exceptional warranty.

I think all the "bitching" is because there is a lot to love about ZT, and people want to buy and enjoy them without concern. The lock issue seems very fixable since other high-end knife companies don't seem to have it. ZT being one of the biggest players in the knife world brings high expectations and a high susceptibility to criticism as well.
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I think most of the “bitching” is because ZT hasn’t addressed this at all.
 
I’d bet that ZT does not worry about spine whacking as it has no bearing on actual performance. That means it’s not part of the testing procedure.
 
Positive Warranty Outcome

Checked my dozen or so ZT's for lock failure. Only one to fail was my 450G10. Sent it in stating "lock failure", did not mention spine whacking. Receive knife 2 weeks later with replaced lockbar scale & or insert. Receipt only says "replaced defective part". Knife now has a solid lockup! This is my 1st experience w/ a warranty claim through KAI & I'm pleased.
 
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MSchott said:
I’d bet that ZT does not worry about spine whacking as it has no bearing on actual performance. That means it’s not part of the testing procedure.
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How does the lock not working have no bearing on actual performance? What is the lock there for then? Decoration?

There are plenty of members who say they make cuts in tight closed in spaces. What about the fact that ZT are supposed to be tactical knives? In a fight the spine is extremely likely to be hit.
 
Lapedog said:
How does the lock not working have no bearing on actual performance? What is the lock there for then? Decoration?

There are plenty of members who say they make cuts in tight closed in spaces. What about the fact that ZT are supposed to be tactical knives? In a fight the spine is extremely likely to be hit.
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Largely because, as I've demonstrated, the frame locks that fail spine whacks will still be safe to use because when held your hand prevents the lock from moving, unless you have the most absurd and unsafe grip or dangerously flail when you use your knife.

Now this doesn't help a liner lock much, but ZT has only made a handful of liner locks that select people are having lock problems with. Still, nobody has shown that they tried increasing the lockbar pressure by a little to see if that helps the slip or not.
 
Lapedog said:
How does the lock not working have no bearing on actual performance? What is the lock there for then? Decoration?

There are plenty of members who say they make cuts in tight closed in spaces. What about the fact that ZT are supposed to be tactical knives? In a fight the spine is extremely likely to be hit.
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Exactly. If accidental closure is not a risk, ZT might as well be making slipjoints.
 
dkb45 said:
Largely because, as I've demonstrated, the frame locks that fail spine whacks will still be safe to use because when held your hand prevents the lock from moving, unless you have the most absurd and unsafe grip or dangerously flail when you use your knife.

Now this doesn't help a liner lock much, but ZT has only made a handful of liner locks that select people are having lock problems with. Still, nobody has shown that they tried increasing the lockbar pressure by a little to see if that helps the slip or not.
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What about for people like who when we grip the framelock, especially in hammer grip the lockbar falls into the crook of my fingers and recieves almost no pressure? Or what about the dreaded pinch grip where zero pressure is on lockbar.

I’m sorry but a framelock that i need to hold the lockbar over for it not to fail is not a working lock.
 
MSchott said:
I’d bet that ZT does not worry about spine whacking as it has no bearing on actual performance. That means it’s not part of the testing procedure.
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Both ZT reps that I have talked to stated that all ZT knives should pass a spine whack test and during my knifes most recent visit the rep stated it was done as part of their qc. It is part of their testing procedure.
 
I don’t want it to seem like I hate ZT. I just have had a really bad experience with my knife. My $240 knife has made 3 trips to their warranty department for two separate issues.

My other ZT worked great, although the lockbar could be pushed over all the way to the other side of the frame.

Their warranty service has been incredibly fast and all their cs reps have been very kind to me. Unfortunately, this last time they didn’t fix my knife.

It’s just been a huge pain in the rear to send a knife in three times and be without it for weeks. Not to mention having to spend money to ship.

I don’t dislike ZT, I actually love their designs and the collabs they do. I’m going to let this play out and see how ZT resolves it.
 
firefighterguy said:
I don’t want it to seem like I hate ZT. I just have had a really bad experience with my knife. My $240 knife has made 3 trips to their warranty department for two separate issues.

My other ZT worked great, although the lockbar could be pushed over all the way to the other side of the frame.

Their warranty service has been incredibly fast and all their cs reps have been very kind to me. Unfortunately, this last time they didn’t fix my knife.

It’s just been a huge pain in the rear to send a knife in three times and be without it for weeks. Not to mention having to spend money to ship.

I don’t dislike ZT, I actually love their designs and the collabs they do. I’m going to let this play out and see how ZT resolves it.
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Good point.

Pretty much everyone who is complaining it is because we love ZT knives and want to be able to buy them with confidence!

I don’t think anyone here is trying to slander the brand as some people seem to believe.
 
My Kershaw Leek in carbon fiber and CPM 154 just arrived today after warranty work.

I sent it in to fix unsafe early lockup, and it’s inabilty to deploy fully.

Unfortunately it is exactly the same and looks like nothing was done.

This is my third warranty attempt with Kai and third disappointment.

In the future, I will call Kai directly for warranty work, but I’m thinking at this point I’ll just return any knife that is substandard for a refund.

I love my functioning Kershaws and ZT’s, but I’m a little bummed on my experiences with warranty service.
 
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Steely_Gunz said:
I'm honestly curious from an academic point of view. Going back to my Junkyard Dog II (which was probably my stoutest liner lock before getting into ZT), why does it pass the same tests where the 350 does not? They are both about the same weight, length, lock thickness, etc.
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I think many have theories about looser tolerances (to avoid lock-stick), poor geometry, and even the lock-bars being steel-on-steel, which can create less friction for the lock. I actually think the locking bar should be titanium...since it can be replaced, let the lock stick a little more for security reasons (then people would bitch about how hard the locking bar is to disengage). Again, I'm not seeing a significant issue with lock failures on my ZTs, and I think the OP's video is a poor example of how to test lock failure. It would be similar to using your knife upside down with a loose pinch-grip, tapping on the spine...should that cause your knife lock to fail? No it shouldn't, but that's not a realistic test from my perspective. I've held my blades over a table, in my hand, both firmly and loosely, and whacked (harder than the video) on the back of the blades; no failures. I'm buying into the theory that the locking bars don't have enough friction and if the geometry or tolerances are off, a loosely held knife will vibrate the locking bar loose. That can be a concern and one ZT should take seriously, if only because they tout their designs as hard-use folders and we have a lot of spine-whackers in the knife community.

I know Cold Steel touts their Triad lock as one of the strongest, and I don't disagree. A minor complaint is that the lock can be a beast to disengage. Too many people want a smooth, fluid action folder when opening AND closing, with the strength of a fixed blade. ZT has part of that, but won't win a consensus on the latter until they figure out how to find the balance of a more secure locking bar that doesn't vibrate loose but doesn't stick so hard it takes two hands to unlock.

ROCK6
 
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