Zero Tolerance Liner Lock Closures?

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Steely_Gunz said:
It's not a common thing to happen under normal use, but I do make some funky cuts in my line of work where the blade is held at odd angles.

My point is that I shouldn't have to put my knife in a death grip to make sure it can't fold on me.
It's not a big deal. Mostly academic on my part. I have started carrying the 0456 more often than my other ZT frame locks. I think because it has the chunkiest Ti frame of my collection it doesn't fail.
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Even not gorilla gripping my knife, I can cut in such a manner that the lock won't close on me. I work in permit-required confined spaces often and also cut in tight spaces in awkward positions. Hell, I grew up using nothing but Case Trappers and Stockmans with no locks on them. Now that I use knives with liner/frame/BB/axis/power/ locks etc, it's just another added bonus! Technique and being deliberate with your cuts has a lot to do with it. Confidence in your equipment counts for something too. Revolver vs Semi, Ford vs Chevy, framelock vs backlock, etc.
 
L.H.S said:
Don't buy framelocks???????
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I don't anymore !!!! :)

What fascinates me about them is the McDonalds mentality . Mcdonalds food is horrible yet its probably the most successful food chain in the world. why? well its the same mentality as the liner/frame lock. the best I can see in favor of it is it is "ho-hum adequate for the type of cutting I do" . with Mcdonalds it "fills my empty stomach relatively cheaply." If McDonalds keeps pumping out the stuff I'll keep consuming it.
 
91bravo said:
Liner locks and frame locks are plenty strong if done right. Definitely not the weakest, crappiest lock in use nowadays. :rolleyes: I don't see how frame locks can close on you, as you have your hand wrapped around the handle, thus preventing the lockbar from unwedging. Spyderco Military does a liner lock how a liner lock should be and I've NEVER had one slip or close on me. This is after 20 years of using the Military in some form. If you don't like the frame locks or liner locks, then don't buy them. There are plenty of folks out there that will continue to do so. No different than someone choosing a certain steel over another.
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I don't buy them anymore.
My point is that the lock is not a good design. is it adequate for most cutting tasks done with a folding knife? sure. But just like the Model A car was and still is "adequate" to transport a person from point A to point B we don't make them anymore because there are better vehicles to transport us these days. Just like the combustion engine gets the job done but inevitably will be replaced by something else, hopefully not battery electric like is being pushed down our throats right now.

another example is the CFL bulb. we were literally forced to buy them. now we have LED and all those crappy CFL bulbs are filling landfills with their toxic crap.

If ZT cant execute the lock well then develop or use another lock system like other knife companies are doing. Cold Steel,Spyderco ,Benchmade
 
ponykid said:
I don't anymore !!!! :)

What fascinates me about them is the McDonalds mentality . Mcdonalds food is horrible yet its probably the most successful food chain in the world. why? well its the same mentality as the liner/frame lock. the best I can see in favor of it is it is "ho-hum adequate for the type of cutting I do" . with Mcdonalds it "fills my empty stomach relatively cheaply." If McDonalds keeps pumping out the stuff I'll keep consuming it.
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Horrible analogy. That's more of your own opinion. To tell me that a CRK, Spyderco Military or Hinderer has horrible lockup and you are just uninformed or have never actually used one.
 
ponykid said:
... Mcdonalds food is horrible yet its probably the most successful food chain in the world. why? .....
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Mcdonald's quality of operation is fantastic. You can travel most of the earth's surface, walk into one of their restaurants, and generally find something that tastes just as it does in your local neighborhood franchise. Granted, it is not the tastiest or healthiest stuff on the planet, but it certainly qualifies as comfort food.

n2s
 
91bravo said:
Horrible analogy. That's more of your own opinion. To tell me that a CRK, Spyderco Military or Hinderer has horrible lockup and you are just uninformed or have never actually used one.
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My Spyderco military frame lock did. Had a defective lock out of the box. My new gen 6 Hinderer has some lock movement that gives me concern, too.

Frame locks and liner locks are difficult to get right.
 
91bravo said:
I know there are lemons out there and everything can't be perfect all the time, but all of my Hinderers, CRKs and Ti Millies have locked up solid!
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So what does that say about your quote? ;)

"To tell me that a CRK, Spyderco Military or Hinderer has horrible lockup and you are just uninformed or have never actually used one."

Even these companies sometimes get it wrong, and they put a lot of emphasis on design and QC. Seems simple enough that ZT might be getting it wrong a lot more often.
 
marrenmiller said:
So what does that say about your quote? ;)

"To tell me that a CRK, Spyderco Military or Hinderer has horrible lockup and you are just uninformed or have never actually used one."

Even these companies sometimes get it wrong, and they put a lot of emphasis on design and QC. Seems simple enough that ZT might be getting it wrong a lot more often.
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My quote is exactly that, MY own experiences. All have had solid lockups. Sorry you had those kind of experiences, but I have not. I won't ever speak for a knife that I've never tried before, or just generically lump all framelocks and liners locks in the same basket.
 
91bravo said:
My quote is exactly that, MY own experiences. All have had solid lockups. Sorry you had those kind of experiences, but I have not. I won't ever speak for a knife that I've never tried before, or just generically lump all framelocks and liners locks in the same basket.
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Your quote is a rude insinuation that people here don't know what they're talking about. Because that's what you actually wrote.

I think a liner or frame lock is fine. But there are plenty of modern mechanical locking systems that are stronger, adjust for wear better, and are less likely to slip during load than a liner or frame lock. That's not lumping them into a basket unfairly; that's just objectively true. I'd love to see ZT do literally anything else other than frame/liner locks.
 
marrenmiller said:
Your quote is a rude insinuation that people here don't know what they're talking about. Because that's what you actually wrote.

I think a liner or frame lock is fine. But there are plenty of modern mechanical locking systems that are stronger, adjust for wear better, and are less likely to slip during load than a liner or frame lock. That's not lumping them into a basket unfairly; that's just objectively true. I'd love to see ZT do literally anything else other than frame/liner locks.
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I have to say I agree with you. Liner and frame locks work, but I think minor variances can really affect their effectiveness in my experiences. If the geometry is off, if the tension is a bit off, if they wear down a certain way over time, they can fail quite easily. Sometimes, even how hard you flick open the knife changes the strength and percentage of the lock. Plus, they are so ubiquitous that they are boring.

I like back locks because they are simple and just work great. With a well done back lock, the blade itself will break before the lock fails. You are talking about tremendous amounts of pressure to break a back lock. I also like the Spyderco compression locks, the Cold Steel Triad Locks, Benchmade Axis locks, and even the newer scorpion locks. All much stronger than liner and frame locks. I don't understand why liner/frame locks are so popular. They are actually quite primitive and have the least room for error or variances.
 
marrenmiller said:
Your quote is a rude insinuation that people here don't know what they're talking about. Because that's what you actually wrote.

I think a liner or frame lock is fine. But there are plenty of modern mechanical locking systems that are stronger, adjust for wear better, and are less likely to slip during load than a liner or frame lock. That's not lumping them into a basket unfairly; that's just objectively true. I'd love to see ZT do literally anything else other than frame/liner locks.
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Well, your quote is a rude insinuation that I'm insinuating. He did lump linerlocks and framelocks into one "horrible lock" category. McDonald's anyone? I can't help that your comprehension skills are lacking.
 
91bravo said:
Horrible analogy. That's more of your own opinion. To tell me that a CRK, Spyderco Military or Hinderer has horrible lockup and you are just uninformed or have never actually used one.
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Seriously McDonalds food being crappy is an opinion? I think we all know that as fact . LOL

I know there are many makers who get the lock system right and have it down so its the best it can be with its limitations. My point is why stay with something we all know is less than a folding knife lock system can be. with mcdonalds yeah it sucks but its quick and when on the road there are a zillion of them everywhere so its convenient at times.

but when its something like a knife where you have the time and ability to go a different route whats the advantage of a liner lock ? None I can see. If I was designing a knife I would not sit back and say "yeah Im going liner lock. that's the lock to show the world I am putting out the best knife platform I can come up with . "
 
91bravo said:
Well, your quote is a rude insinuation that I'm insinuating. He did lump linerlocks and framelocks into one "horrible lock" category. McDonald's anyone? I can't help that your comprehension skills are lacking.
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I assumed you meant I lumped them together, as you responded to my post. My bad on that one.

As for your quote... Go read it again. Would you say that to a close friend or family member of yours? Seems awful rude to me.
 
marrenmiller said:
I assumed you meant I lumped them together, as you responded to my post. My bad on that one.

As for your quote... Go read it again.
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You might want to get your facts straight before you call someone rude. As for my quote:

91bravo said:
My quote is exactly that, MY own experiences. All have had solid lockups. Sorry you had those kind of experiences, but I have not. I won't ever speak for a knife that I've never tried before, or just generically lump all framelocks and liners locks in the same basket.
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There it is. So according to ponykid and you, ZT, CRK, Hinderer, and ALL framelock and liner lock manufacturers are doing it all wrong. Gotcha.
 
As a matter of information, and in response to the "Model T" analogy, I'll point out that the frame lock is a relatively modern design and came into being as a result of Chris Reeve's desire for an integral lock. Obviously, the lock has evolved away from that initial design concept -- even CRK are using ceramic ball inserts on their frames -- but as it regards the initial design concept, the frame lock remains unsurpassed.
 
Folding knife=broken in the middle, so if you want ultimate strength..remove that and carry a fixed blade. The convenience of being able to put it in your pocket comes with a compromise.
 
bhyde said:
Folding knife=broken in the middle, so if you want ultimate strength..remove that and carry a fixed blade. The convenience of being able to put it in your pocket comes with a compromise.
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This all day and twice on Sunday and Thursday.

This all day and twice on Sunday and Thursday.
 
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