How far removed is moderm FMA from its traditional Martial Arts?

Y

Yoshi

BANNED
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
Messages
408
When you look at old drawings and pictures of Filipino warriors, one wonders just how far removed modern FMA is from what the old warriors would have practiced, and how much of that tradition has been lost? And has modern FMA become to far removed from its routes?
 
I see your point, maybe you could say it's far removed. Or maybe you could say it adapted and evolved thus remaining true to it's roots.

I think the FMA is much more of a personal art than some others. Some have gone on different paths, but that's the point of the martial arts. To make it yours.
 
I don't really know FMA, but if it's like others, a lot depends on the approach and attitude of the specific teacher.

Jordan
 
Yoshi said:
When you look at old drawings and pictures of Filipino warriors, one wonders just how far removed modern FMA is from what the old warriors would have practiced, and how much of that tradition has been lost? And has modern FMA become to far removed from its routes?
Click to expand...

As an actual FMA student, I would say very little. Modern FMA as we know it today where you join a club or school and pay dues to train has only been around since the '20s & '30s. Techniques taught in Balintawak, Kalis Illustrisimo, Ninoy Cinco Teros, and Doce Pares among many others are still the same techniques used several hundred years ago. Only big difference I see from the "old" systems and the "modern" systems is that the newer systems are organized better within the overall cirriculum taught. There is more of a progression from beginner to intermidiate to advanced student with curriculum to match. IIRC Tatang Illustisimo was still killing guys in the '60s so thats as close to old school FMA as you can get. Also, one has to keep in mind that not all "warriors" are martial artists. Just as all Samurai were not "Bugeisha" not every Filipino who picked up a barong trained in a martial art. Now there may be some competition only type clubs that just train to compete in WEKAF type events, so maybe those specific players dont really train in the full FMA spectrum but overall I dont think much is lost.
 
I would have to disagree that they are using the same techniques as hundreds of years ago, my experience of MA in the Philippines when being with people like JJ Mac;
JJ_chat_1.jpg

Is that the current forms/styles do not truly represent the old arts, indeed there seems to be a lot of WWII and post Japanese influence in the Doce Pares Eskrima.
It is almost comparable I would say to the modern Budo systems of Japan, being compared to the old Bujutsu styles of Japan.
 
Not that it wouldn't be a worthwhile endeavor.. but...
Wouldn't trying to emulate the truly ancient Filipino methods be very difficult, if not almost impossible?
  • There is probably little, if any, reliable written record of the ancient arts.
  • Generally the fighting technology is passed down by word of mouth.

Is it possible the Silat systems in the Philipines might reflect the older versions of themselves? Consider:
  • The muslim influence might have had impact on those arts since around 1400. Since that time they have been somewhat isolated from the rest of the islands. Heck, they even still had Datus up until recent history. :)
  • The southern Phillipines, where much of Silat is said to come from, has been subject to attack but not full subjugation for hundreds of years.

I don't know if the above is absolute truth, just some thoughts for discussion.
 
Yoshi said:
I would have to disagree that they are using the same techniques as hundreds of years ago, my experience of MA in the Philippines when being with people like JJ Mac; Is that the current forms/styles do not truly represent the old arts, indeed there seems to be a lot of WWII and post Japanese influence in the Doce Pares Eskrima. It is almost comparable I would say to the modern Budo systems of Japan, being compared to the old Bujutsu styles of Japan.
Click to expand...

So in your opinion, the systems taught by masters such as Nene Tortal, Leo Gage, Tatang Illustrisimo, and Floro Villabrile are somehow less combative than what your run of the mill Moro farmer might have practiced? From already published research one can conclude that there were very few full time "warriors" in the Philipines. Most, especially those in the Moro regions were farmers, hunters, or fisherman who did not have a lot of free time to practice FMA. Maybe you could make a point that they had a more intense mentality toward combat as they did'nt fight for fun or recreation as we do today. However, most would agree that the way we perform an overhead strike with a barang today is probably how some Moro pirate did it 200 years ago.
 
This is pure speculation on my part; I would be inclined to believe that FMA particularly pre-spanish occupation would have been somewhat more simplified but no less effective when used by a tenacious, well conditioned fighter. Simpler doesn't mean not as good. I believe it was somewhat simpler (i.e. less techniques) because one of the hallmarks of FMA is adaptability. We see this in the ability to apply FMA concepts, with a little specific tweaking, to a wide spectrum of contact weapons. From sticks to knives to bolos to staves to pocket sticks to empty hands, et al the concepts of FMA have broad applicability. This adaptability would hold true for FMA techniques themselves so that when the Spanish came to the PI the FMA techniques had to adapt to deal with the new weapons used by the technologically superior Spanish soldiers. Same to in the 20th century when the Phillipine-American war and later WWII brought new technologies for which FMA had to adapt. So FMA had to constantly adapt to new ways of waging war and from all accounts it did so and worked very well.

I think that the way FMA would really be different is how it is taught. Old school FMA were a conglomeration of family arts that a boy would learn for an older male in his family (father, uncle, older brother) or close family friend. It's not until the mid 20th century that we see FMA being offered to the public in clubs such as the Doce Pares Society in Cebu City. Even with the advent of clubs we still see many of the various FMA styles being taught as "family arts" well into the late 20th century. My original FMA training was in Manaois Eskrima which was a family art taught to my Grandmaster, Conrad Manaois by his father, Marcelino "Ninoy" Manaois, which GM Manaois expanded upon and adapted to teach to the general public.

In addition to keeping the various FMA styles "in the family" we see the advent of various more modern learning techniques. This would include the use of various types of protective gear as well as the hierarchical use of grading and belts to show a student's progress though the style. Grading and belts had not been a part of FMA traditionally but were adapted from Japanese martial arts sytems. Even the systematization of techniques is a largely 20th century addition to FMA.

In summary I believe that if we were to watch an old school escrimador (a word that in itself is an adaptation of the Spanish word for fencing) along side a modern escrimador we would see much in common with maybe slight differences in application due to more modern technologies. After all, there are only so many ways to hit somebody with a stick. Where we would see the real difference would be in how these escrimadors learn and train their art.
 
Mike I agree. One thing I also suspect is that there is still quite a bit of transmission within family groups occurring in the Philipines and not all modern training is thru clubs or schools.

I also train in Manaois Eskrima in WA state. Could you e-mail me at:

darrell.kaiser@us.army.mil

I have some Manaois specific questions I would like to ask somebody who has trained with the LA Manaois group.
 
Colt6731 said:
Mike I agree. One thing I also suspect is that there is still quite a bit of transmission within family groups occurring in the Philipines and not all modern training is thru clubs or schools.
Click to expand...

Yes, I believe that is true. I've trained with guys my age (mid 40s) that learned their family art so I have no doubt that this type of handing down from generation to generation still occurs today. Even the FMA clubs and schools are out numbered by "backyard" groups in the PI. My understanding is that it's easier to find a Tae Kwon Do school in the PI than an FMA school.
 
So in your opinion, the systems taught by masters such as Nene Tortal, Leo Gage, Tatang Illustrisimo, and Floro Villabrile are somehow less combative than what your run of the mill Moro farmer might have practiced?
Click to expand...
Quite possibly, it would seem that post WWII, the FMA systems are much more intricate, in an introverted almost duelling way, with over complex drills, unrealistic disarms (IMHO) etc.

Here is a great historical link which I got from vilingsword forum http://dlxs.library.cornell.edu/s/sea/index.php
Judging by the pictures the most important weapon was the spear and shield, pics from;
attachment.php

attachment.php


Modern FMA certainley doesn't seem to reflect these pictures, which I think is a shame, I understand about Arts moving on, but it seems a whole world of MA has been lost in modern FMA. Other cultures have either carried through their old systems, or re-discovered them, I think it would be a good thing for FMA, to have a re-think in this direction.
 
Some people do practice with shields, spears, and the like. But, do we really know it emulates actual fighting techniques of "ancient" FMA? Is there any way to verify it's even close? I'm not so sure.

There is more written record in Western Martial Arts. Even with some of the written Western manuals you have to be careful on how you interpret it.
 
For myself, while I think it would be fun to play around with the spear and shield it wouldn't be something I'd be inclined to put a lot of time into. This is mainly an issue of practicality for me; it's extremely unlikely that I'll ever be carrying a spear and shield. Since I strive for functionality in my FMA I going to put my time into stick, knife and empty hands.
 
It is not just the traditional way of using the shield and sword, but also the traditional way all thier weapons were used, and what priority was given to such weapons, for me it is about getting back in touch with FMA, perhaps pre-Spanish infuence?
 
Yoshi, I think it's a honorable undertaking for the sake of historical preservation. How would you advise to go about it?
 
It is not something I would be able to do, but I think a good start would be the old written referances and pictures in the link above, as well as trying to find instructors that may actualy be using old style and uncomplicated techniques in their systems.
 
Well, just got home from my tour in Iraq today. After a year being gone, Its really nice to be home.

Yoshi, I do hear what your saying, but I just cant get into your line of thinking. I just dont see it. Maybe its just my own combat mindset getting in the way. I now have 2 years of actual Infantry combat experience, the last year as a platoon sergeant of an Infantry platoon. I started serious FMA training in 2005 after I returned from my 1st tour in Iraq, so I have always put a "combat" angle into my FMA training so maybe I see more of a kindred spirit in the old warriors. All I know is I dont know everything.
 
Colt6731, I think your approach is what the FMA is all about. I think seeking effectiveness and adapting to modern problems is part of the FMA philosophy. Applying FMA principles to modern combative environments. I also think it is a honorable thing to attempt to preserve older teaching methods, weapons, and tactics.

I think it depends on why you are training in FMA. This, for me, is a combination of things which include modern applications and understanding traditional practices.
 
Colt6731 said:
Well, just got home from my tour in Iraq today. After a year being gone, Its really nice to be home.

Yoshi, I do hear what your saying, but I just cant get into your line of thinking. I just dont see it. Maybe its just my own combat mindset getting in the way. I now have 2 years of actual Infantry combat experience, the last year as a platoon sergeant of an Infantry platoon. I started serious FMA training in 2005 after I returned from my 1st tour in Iraq, so I have always put a "combat" angle into my FMA training so maybe I see more of a kindred spirit in the old warriors. All I know is I dont know everything.
Click to expand...

Welcome home and thank you for your service.

I don't think your combat mindset is "getting in the way." I think mindset is what martial arts is and should be all about. Training and technique is all well and good but won't get you far without the proper mindset.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top