1084 edge rolling but no chipping.

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Marko3-
quint- I had a uniform color throughout the blade of a bright red orange and the " shadow" that runs throught the steel had all but completely dissipated I believed that this meant the carbon was completely in solution or had completed the transformation into austenite. please correct me if I am wrong. I had already passed non magnetic and would say that the steel went approximately two shades brighter/ lighter

.

The "shadow" you see has nothing to do with martensite vs austenite. It is the cooler core of metal in the thicker parts of the blade. If the blade was non-magnetic, it was all austenite.

When heating in a forge, the thin part ( edge) and the surfaces will heat up faster than the thicker middle and spine area. This is due to the rather low coefficient of heat of steel. When forging, this is good, as it allows you to hold one end of a bar of red hot steel in a gloved hand, and allows localized heating. In HT it is a problem to deal with. You have to hold the blade at an even temperature long enough for the whole blade to get up to the target temp ( say 1475F). In an open forge, the edge will continue to heat up and go well beyond that temp as the core heats up to look evenly colored. This is because dark red and cherry red look very different, but cherry red and yellow red look nearly the same. With 1084 it is best to look at the edge area when the blade becomes non magnetic and then heat to one shade of red more. At this point the edge area will be pretty close to the perfect temp. Quench immediately. If you can control the heating in your forge to some degree, holding it for a minute to even out the color ( get rid of the shadow) is OK, but it will be best to just quench once the edge is at the temp you want. After all, it is only the edge that we need hardened perfectly.

Here is a trick I use when doing HT in the forge. Once the blade reaches non-magnetic, I put it back in the forge and put the edge right against the side of the forge. This keeps it as much out of the flame as possible, while the spine and bevel heat up a bit more. With good timing, the rest heats up and the shadow disappears about the same time it is one shade brighter red. At that moment I pull the blade and quench.

 

[moraldilemma666]

Thanks Bladsmth, and everyone else. one of the knives did get significantly better with sharpening while the other seemed to get a bit better. I will try to ht some more blades asap and even out oven temps better as I can understand now the problems they can cause. as for ht or timeframe on this I am unsure as the lady friend has informed me that grinding in the apartment is now mostly off limits. as for further improvement of the knives with subsequent sharpening I will not personally know as both were given away as gifts. will attempt to post pics shortly though to get some opinions.

 

[moraldilemma666]

here are some photos of the first two which were gifts for family members. a few include photos of the third ( First started but not enough time to finish all three before xmass) to be kept for myself.

Edit: For the mods if there are any problems with this post please let me know. as a side not none of these knives are for sale now or in the future. this is a hobby and possibly ambition but If and when I do decide to sell knives It will be made clear as I will pay for the privilege to do so and be noted as such on this forum.

 

[moraldilemma666]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[moraldilemma666]

finishing is a bit rough what with being 80-120 grit around the sides. unfortunately I should not have done these on a deadline even for gifts. as they stand allot of time was invested into these to do what I could. I will post pics eventually of the first/third finished of these and hopefully will have the forbearance to give myself time to do proper finishing work. In my personal opinion I love the handle shape on these and finde it very comfortable in use and the bladeshape useful.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

This is one of those situations where posting a photo and asking questions would have ended with a very different looking knife.

I will address the major problems so you can see what should be changed on future knives:
1) The handle is too wide, and blocky. We call this BHS (blocky handle syndrome). Make it narrower and round it into more of an oval shape. At the minimum, the edges should round down onto the sides more. Those tips going down the finger guard should not be there. The handle bottom should have continued along the bottom line and gone on to the front. They will easily break off in use.
2) The edge bevel is at least half what it should be. The knife as is will be a poor cutter. The bevel should be twice as high at a minimum, and a full flat grind would be even better.
3) Finish - there isn't much finish done at all. The surfaces should be sanded to 400 grit at a minimum and all scratches should be gone.
4) Blade shape - The blade is very fat. Since the edge is all that cuts, the excess is doing nothing but making the knife heavy and getting in the way when cutting. About 60-75% as wide would look and work much better. (same for the handle width.)

Kudos on making the knives, and the results you got are far from the worst I have seen. Just work on improving the next ones.

Here is a thread with a photo of a very similar knife done with much better proportions and finish. Look at the photo and see where yours could change.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1141441-Drop-Point-Hunter

 

[moraldilemma666]

Thank you very much for the response and helpful hints along the way bladsmth.

The only thing I don't quite understand is the bevel? I had intended a Scandi style grind so the bevel goes straight to the edge at 30 degrees inclusive. did I do this wrong?

As for the handle I realize it is a bit ugly but it seemed to fill the hand well maybee this is only a personal problem but with my esee 4 i seem to have alot of space on the pinky side of my hand.

the blade shape definitely needs to be adjusted as it is much to steep of an angle? tip is too high with too much belly? doesn't dig in well for some tasks I found after completion.

The handle tips you mentioned I also was suspicious of and so will either omit or change them on future attempts. Once again though thank you very much for you devotion to helping people like myself get started in this hobby and giving us good direction.
P.S. any handle suggestions to alleviate BHS and also keep the knife comfortable in the hand for someone like me whom seems to like large handles? For comparison I love the lmf2 handle... I know but its a good working knife to be fair.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Put the scales on and grind to the tang all the way around at 90 degrees. If you like big handles, use thicker scales than you used. At this point the handle is shaped to the approx. final profile, but rectangular in cross section. All that the top needs is a slight curve from tip to butt, and all the handle bottom needs is a slight palm swell. Finger grooves and fancy shapes are not normally the best idea when starting.
Next, knock off all the edges at 45 degrees.
Then round the three flats on each side ( top, 45 degree bevel, side) into a smooth curve. Once the curves are made all the way around, blend the sides into the top and bottom to give the handle some shape. An oval or an egg shape is the norm. The very sides can be somewhat flat, but the overall cross section should fit in an oval/egg shape profile.