A reality check for most makers

ptgdvc

ptgdvc

Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Messages
2,369
Lets cut to the chase.

The truth of the matter is that, the work of a majority of custom knife makers, is simply not worth the time and effort to critique, or to collect. That may smart, but if you are flunking lunch on basic techniques, you know it. If you are serious about being taken seriously, master the fundamentals by learning them from an actual Master. You have seen enough Kung Fu movies to know what I am saying is true.

If you think you have just been dissed, you are dead wrong. You have been given a good piece of advice, if you are smart enough to recognize it. Make of it, what you will.

The same fifty top makers get mentioned here on the Forum by the snobby collectors, time and again, for one reason and one reason only. THEY DO THE BEST WORK.

P
 
The same fifty top makers get mentioned here on the Forum by the snobby collectors, time and again, for one reason and one reason only. THEY DO THE BEST WORK.



Bingo! Bravo!
 
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Well said! The bar is extremely high these days. There are plenty of reasons to make knives--hobby, fun, stress relief, art, etc. But if one wants to SELL them publicly, then that is a different matter all together.

John
 
Some of you collectors are really becoming snobs.

Why is this being repeated over and over?:yawn:

Some of you have a better eye and won't belittle yourselves with anything but the best, WE GET IT.
 
Daring thread, watch your step.

A lot of makers out there are just learning and their knives are just beginning to look halfway decent,.....this is fine.

Some of these guys however, seem to spend more time designing flashy logo's and having t-shirts printed and patches embroided than they do actually using or scrutinizing their knives.

Just don't name them......
 
blatant trolling.
my counterpoint is simple.
learning from a master knife maker may be faster but is not the only way
I looked at your collection links and saw it was primarily ABS makers. welp heres a reality check for you..... let me quote the father of the ABS Bill Moran
"Moran: "I sold my first knife 59 years ago at the age of 14. I became a full time knifemaker forty years ago in 1960. You see, my father had a dairy farm in Maryland. On the farm we had a blacksmith shop. We heated our houses with coal and used it in a hand crank forge. I learned to make knives so I could have what I wanted in a knife. I wanted to make knives the old way (forged) but no one knew how to do it anymore. No one knew how to heat treat etc. So I used trial and error to make knives, mainly error. I wanted my knives to cut real well."
in other words Bill taught himself.

even though I know Im not on par with ABS master smiths fit and finish yet I've absolutely no interest whatsoever in studying under them. Simply for the reason that I'm not a big fan of the ABS style and the reliance on power tools that many of them espouse, its strictly creative differences mind you. I'm sure they would have alot to share if I wanted to make knives their way.
about the only smith that I WOULD be interested in working with (so far) is Tai Goo, but alas I live on the east coast so itll be a while before I could afford the trip.
so basically that leaves it up to me and my desire to improve my work.
I do indeed know where I need practice and where I need improvement. some of it is knowledge that will take me alot longer to learn on my own and some of it is a lack of tooling that I still need to fabricate. however I look upon this as a creative journey and am enjoying the learning process.
 
ptgdvc said:
Lets cut to the chase.



The same fifty top makers get mentioned here on the Forum by the snobby collectors, time and again, for one reason and one reason only. THEY DO THE BEST WORK.

P
Click to expand...

But there are also countless reasons why they were able to rise to that level that many other makers may never share!
Time, freedom, finances, previous experience, someone to "take their hand", proximity to resources and other knife industry personel, "connections", etc.
They didn't rise to that level by some mysterious method.
It may take others a loooooooooooong time to get there when all they have is their own resources.
Walk into the shop of a "big dog" and start adding up the inventory.
That's a LOT of resources to pick from.
A maker doesn't have to be at the top of the heap to enjoy doing what he is doing.
And in the final analysis, I do this for me.
 
I think that most of the big names that get mentioned here are where they are because they have been making knives for 10-20+ years.

Hopefully some of us that are lower on the totem pole will get to that point after 20 years, some plateau and unfortunately don't.

My biggest advantage in this is that I'm half the age of most of the big named makers.
 
Chuck Gedraitis Knives said:
I think that most of the big names that get mentioned here are where they are because they have been making knives for 10-20+ years.

Hopefully some of us that are lower on the totem pole will get to that point after 20 years, some plateau and unfortunately don't.

My biggest advantage in this is that I'm half the age of most of the big named makers.
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I think you're right Chuck. When I first met Jerry Rados and, (who you know as well) and I exprressed my interest in knife making, he sort of laughed. Then he told it took 25 years to be a "good" knife maker.
I thought he was full of it.
I don't anymore.
 
Peter hit a nail right on the read.

I feel the same way about criticizing, but not about the need for a master. Sfreddo never had one just to name a good maker from my whereabouts that you all know.

It is just a little more complicated than that. You need a good eye to look into others work and see what could be better in yours in comparison. You need to be resourceful in order to come up with ideas to solve problems when you have no one to teach you. You need to be humble about your work and never be fully satisfied with what comes out of your shop, and so the list goes on...

I guess some have "the thing" and this "thing" is a wide collection of skills. Some can be improved, some are more like talents, and cannot be improved.

The hard core of all the debates going on the critique theme is that sometimes makers are not willing improve what they can. Lots of people trace ok designs, grind a blade (or forge it) with no particular remarks, glue a couple of slabs of whatever material and expect compliments?

Please, don´t expect compliments for the most ordinary design or execution. And don´t tell me about hardness properties of YOUR knives. Anyone using a digital furnace will get exactly the same results if they use the right temperatures and procedures that are listed in a number of metallurgy books. Getting the best from your steel is so easy it is expected from the least imaginative makers.

So:

It may take others a loooooooooooong time to get there when all they have is their own resources
Click to expand...

If those guys only considered the criticism they get a valuable part of those few resources available they might just get there a little bit faster... now if you don´t agree with the guys around here you have two actions to take:

1. look into your sales. If you are satisfied and there is people buying and giving you positive feedback on your knives, then you don´t need to post here as the negative feedback you may be getting in this forum is provided by a market share that is not where you stand.

2. if your sales are not that good, then others just might have a point you should consider.

Jeff Velasco
 
Actually, there are some "child prodigies" out there who seem to be REALLY good early on. Names like Josh Smith, Jason Knight, Nick Wheeler, Matt Roberts and the 17 year old kid that posted that damascus blade about a week ago come to mind. The uber-collector snobbettes talk a lot about fit and finish being number one, but if you read between the lines, DESIGN seems to be the most important factor. If the knife looks "clunky" it won't matter that very tolerance is accurate to the last angstrom. I have been told by a couple of guys to work on the F & F on THAT particular knife and I got the message...lol
 
In reading this thread, I think what also needs to be considered is the market being targeted and the value for the price being asked and paid.

I think if a tally was taken of the number of collectors/customers buying knives with price tags upwards of $1000 there are NOT that many. Just as there are NOT that many makers that can produce work to warrant those prices.

Additionally, how many of those knives ever get used?

Peter
 
If only those, who are worthy of a master smith rating, were allowed to post examples of their work on these forums, it would soon become, no more than an elitist club, with all the rancor and divisiveness that comes with exclusion.
For people who's only interest, in the knife community, is either looking at or purchasing the beautiful knives this select group of smiths produce; this type of forum would, no doubt, be beneficial.
Personally, I enjoy looking at everyones work; from the rank amateur, whose first knife means as much to him as a masters grand achievement;to the middle maker, who gets to the shop early, with hopes of discovering something new and interesting about his craft; encouraging me to do the same.
I applaud those who have gone through the testing and are accepted as
journeymen smiths and are looking forward to getting there master rating.
This is one of many ways to make the journey.

Most everyone who post here is contributing in some manner; maybe its their sense humor, or there technical expertise. Maybe its a collector with years of knowledge, giving advice to someone just starting out.
Advice from a master smith is beneficial to all of us.
I believe it is this kind of thinking that goes into peoples responses when they are asked to critique someones first knife in the makers forum.
It would be so easy to dash the budding makers hopes by pointing out every thing that is wrong with their effort; but instead, most makers tend to encourage them, in hopes of someday seeing their master work.

Fred

P.S. I noticed, after posting, that this is my 2,000th post on Blade Forums. I am pleased that it was this particular post.
 
I see your point Peter, but that issue is kind of 'off' the original discussion.

"a maker don´t get me to criticize (constructive or not, will not get into that) because his work has nothing remarkable to criticize"

if you read between the lines, DESIGN seems to be the most important factor.
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I guess design and F&F go more or less together. A poor designed and very well executed knife makes something less than OK. Great design poorly executed makes a piece of crap. IMHO. And I mean to take into consideration in this process the level of the maker at any given point of his career (Jerry Fisk didn´t have the same skills 20 or 30 years ago did he?).

Maybe we should use the phrase "Nothing remarkable" to start criticizing? And don´t get me wrong, that would be in a VERY constructive way!

Jeff Velasco
 
BrB said:
I see your point Peter, but that issue is kind of 'off' the original discussion.

"a maker don´t get me to criticize (constructive or not, will not get into that) because his work has nothing remarkable to criticize"



I guess design and F&F go more or less together. A poor designed and very well executed knife makes something less than OK. Great design poorly executed makes a piece of crap. IMHO. And I mean to take into consideration in this process the level of the maker at any given point of his career (Jerry Fisk didn´t have the same skills 20 or 30 years ago did he?).

Maybe we should use the phrase "Nothing remarkable" to start criticizing? And don´t get me wrong, that would be in a VERY constructive way!

Jeff Velasco
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Not always. I have heard some people talk about Bill Moran''s fit and finish in a less than complimentary way. The same "accusations' could be leveled at some of the older work that I have seen by Bill Bagwell, including the bowie that I used to own. The fit and finish on some of those hideous Frost Cutlery fantasy knives is done with, well, machine precision...lol. My point was that if the knife is not eel disinged, you will never get to the fit and finish examination stage. In my case, I occasionally get complimented on design elements of som of my knives. With that said, if some of the guys on here ever saw some of my stuff up close, they would probably choke on their Glenlivet...lol.
 
Fred.Rowe said:
Personally, I enjoy looking at everyones work; from the rank amateur, whose first knife means as much to him as a masters grand achievement;to the middle maker, who gets to the shop early, with hopes of discovering something new and interesting about his craft; encouraging me to do the same.




Fred brings up a good point, isn't the point of this forum to lust after knives? I like to see what other people collect and make, whether it's an origami knife, made out of pink construction paper, or a damascus butter knife.

Some of these guys don't enjoy knives anymore, it's just become an investment to them.

Do they really think the knife world revolves around their opinion?
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I don't think some of these elitist collectors are qualified to critique anything. All they do is follow the trends, by blue chip names, and pat each other on the back... who can't do that?

Who can't pick a knife apart,... any knife?
 
Tai Goo said:
I don't think some of these elitist collectors are qualified to critique anything. All they do is follow the trends, by blue chip names, and pat each other on the back... who can't do that?

Who can't pick a knife apart,... any knife?
Click to expand...

Tai....I've been meaning to talk to you about the deer poop thing:D
 
Let me disagree.
IMO, all it takes to make a great knife is talent and dedication. It's a lot already. If you learn with a great knifemaker, your work will get better faster, that's all.
I've seen so-so knives made by HUGE names and top notch knives made by less known (or unknown in the USA) makers. They were not mere exceptions either. I'll stay away from names, but I've handled knives by ABS JS smiths that were at least as good as any MS knife I've handled. Of course, those JS are MS by now (or will be some day) but at that specific time they were not.
What I noticed over the years is this: those who make very good knives, make them good all the time (or almost). This is what I call dedication.
The makers that get mentioned here all the time are not all equal. Some get mentioned because the quality of their work (I'd say most of them). Some because their work is desirable and hard to get (increasing value, ya know), and some because their work is the flavour of the month.
 
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