A reality check for most makers

I guess we are missing the point, going round to what has already been discussed in the other threads.

I like to look at all knives.

Will I offer critique (in whatever form Tai) to all of them? Nope. Most of the times it is not worth it (to me, mostly poor design or personal attitude of the maker discourage me to add any comments).

Will all makers posting take (read and consider, not necessarily agree with) it? Not usually.

Do they all have to? Not at all.

Could they benefit from the information (in any kind of criticism)? Hell yes.

Jeff Velasco
 
If you think you have just been dissed, you are dead wrong. You have been given a good piece of advice, if you are smart enough to recognize it. Make of it, what you will.
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This is something all offended parties should read, and then read again.
 
actually I DO feel dissed, the poster implies that without following a MS smiths teaching your wasting your time as a maker and you'll never develop the skillset. its a medieval guild mentality, a narrow vision of the learning process and denigrates all other avenues of exploration. your damn tootin I feel dissed. besides hows the old saying go? free advice is often worth the price.
also not every maker that posts here for feedback or to share is trying to make high end collectibles or even feel that their work is ready. some of us look for feedback from the collecting community to help us further our work, but to be blunt this sort of opinion turns me off to the whole idea of sharing my work in this particular forum. I'm not looking for gladhanding attaboys but im also not looking for snobbish effrontery or to be ignored because my work isnt "MS quality" yet.
 
While I agree that the original post here has truth to it, if I were making knives I'd probably find it a little condescending, and by that I mean the tone is a little patriarchal and challenging. Definitely not a 'welcome' message, more like the kind of advice someone would ask for, instead of receiving it unsolicited.
But it's all good.:)That's just my take.
 
I think the "reality check" thing needs to work on collecters as well as makers.

All some of these collectors seem to be interested in is protecting their precious investments,… at any cost. If these investments need that much protecting, then they are probably on very weak ground.
 
Your "Us vs Them" mentality is part of the problem and does a disservice to everyone, makers and collectors alike. How does that old saying go, whats good for the goose is good for the gander?

Take Dave Ellis for example, a collector, purveyor, and maker. You could learn a whole lot from him, and no, not because he is a Mastersmith (he is), but because of his healthy attitude which serves to better the entire community, not divide it.

PS - you are not being dissed
 
There are different types of collectors as well as makers. This forum, should be able to accommodate them all... "Custom and Handmade Knives". That's a very broad field! Diversity is what makes it interesting. Stifling diversity, new ideas, new makers and new growth really won’t do any good in the long run... except maybe for a very few, with only their own interests at heart.
 
As far as new makers go, sometimes a little "encouragement" is all they need.
 
I find this thread quite interesting, I'm a guest here as I just showed up to investigate this fourm after my buddy "Richard";) jr. came to shop talk and suggested more makers come take a look.
I don't have to stay if I don't like what I read so why get upset," if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen" so to speak. I like seeing others work and reading the suggestions in what they might do to improve it from the eyes of the collectors. I can relate to many things they tell other makers so I learn from them all, not just what is said about my work.
If a maker is satisfied with what they produce and sell and don't care about changing what they make then thats cool too, but I'm always looking to improve, and who else is better to help you learn what needs improving then those that buy and use what we makers make. I agree some peoples opinions will not mean crap to me but many will and I welcome all suggestions if its presented in an unhateful and considerate way.
I do disagree that you need to work under a MS to become good at what we do, though it would be nice to work around someone with years of talent and get hands on training, for most its not going to happen, work schedules and trying to survive in todays world just won't allow it, but that doesn't mean your doomed and should find a different profession. If those that think the only makers that can make a great piece are mastersmiths, all I can say is, your entitled to your own opinions.

Bill
 
jdm61 said:
The uber-collector snobbettes talk a lot about fit and finish being number one, but if you read between the lines, DESIGN seems to be the most important factor. If the knife looks "clunky" it won't matter that very tolerance is accurate to the last angstrom.
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Not sure if I'm one of the uber-collector snobettes, but I've always been clear that design was #1 for me.
 
ptgdvc said:
...master the fundamentals by learning them from an actual Master.
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Just to be clear, Peter used the term Master and not Mastersmith. I think it's a key difference.

Tai is a 'Master'. So is R.J. Martin. Neither are mastersmiths, but they know a helluva lot and will teach the same by example and one-on-one education.

Provocative thread, indeed.

Coop
 
SharpByCoop said:
Just to be clear, Peter used the term Master and not Mastersmith. I think it's a key difference.

Tai is a 'Master'. So is R.J. Martin. Neither are mastersmiths, but they know a helluva lot and will teach the same by example and one-on-one education.

Provocative thread, indeed.

Coop
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Thanks Coop!

However, I don't like the term "master", because it implies that you know everything that there is to know. I'll always consider myself a "student" of the craft because I learn new things all the time, and want to keep it that way. That's what keeps it interesting.

Technically, I do hold a "Master of Fine Arts" degree from an accredited university.

I do have more "experience" than some, and have been a teacher of the craft for over 20 years. I have had my influence on many of the up and comers and quite a few of the shining stars of the industry. I have never found that harsh criticism helps anyone or does any good. Like I said, some just need encouragement. Others need encouragement and gentle guidance, but most of all,... I try to set a decent example.
 
The four stages of competence apply to everyone, all the time, in every field.

1. Unconscious incompetence
You don't even know, that you don't know, and thats just fine with you.

2. Conscious incompetence
You know that you don't know, AND you start the learning process, in order to overcome your own ignorance.

3. Conscious competence
You know what you should be doing. If, you think about what you are doing and take your time, you will rarely screw up.

4. Unconscious competence
You perform correctly as a matter of course, without even consciously thinking about it. You will very rarely screw up.

Where do you honestly think you stand?

If you don't think so and that you know better, have a nice life. I am told that ignorance is bliss.

Kumbaya.

P
 
Learning first-hand from someone is great, but I don't think it makes or breaks a maker. Sometimes; you just end up with a maker doing the same style as their teacher.

That being said, I take advice and lessons anywhere I can get them and take every chance I can get to visit other maker's shops. It's a competitive world out there . .
 
We've been back all of three-four days now? I'll tell you one thing, this forum sure knows how to beat a dead horse into the ground.

I'm going to go post pics of a knife being made.....Todd is still a newbie, got lots to learn and can take the heat from all comers.

tanya
 
Peter, with all due respect, I sincerely enjoy seeing the full range of skills and talents (or lack thereof) here on the forums...indeed both ends of the spectrum are necessary to enjoy the art and hobby we all embrace.

But in line of what you might be saying...just what might the height of the 'acceptable' bar?

Is it at Mr Ellis's level? My God, I don't think there is even enough oxygen there for me to breath!

Is it at the very well-made ABS forged bowie level? Personally, I've really seen enough of the same-same...

How about intense creativity with up-and-coming skill?

And doesn't the burgeoning knife maker deserve our knowledgeable criticism, combined with a nurturing environment, as much as the lauded seasoned maker...or is this a bit too much Kumbaya?

Or...perhaps all 'under-skilled' makers should just sit by the sidelines and keep their works to themselves until they reach 'our' level....

Not meant to dis anyone, just food for thought! :D

-Michael
 
I've found that the only good harsh criticism on a finished piece does,... is make the critic feel better about his or her own,... "incompetence".

It's an easy trap to fall into.

... been there, done that! :D
 
ptgdvc said:
The four stages of competence apply to everyone, all the time, in every field.

1. Unconscious incompetence
You don't even know, that you don't know, and thats just fine with you.

2. Conscious incompetence
You know that you don't know, AND you start the learning process, in order to overcome your own ignorance.

3. Conscious competence
You know what you should be doing. If, you think about what you are doing and take your time, you will rarely screw up.

4. Unconscious competence
You perform correctly as a matter of course, without even consciously thinking about it. You will very rarely screw up.

Where do you honestly think you stand?

If you don't think so and that you know better, have a nice life. I am told that ignorance is bliss.

Kumbaya.

P
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Why don't you kick that one off yourself?
 
I don't think that there should be any bar to post. But one should not expect to get comment / feedback unless the piece is at some level. Nobody has the time or the inclination to comment on every single average 3-piece hunting knife.

Tai - maybe that's true for you because you don't need and don't care about collectors tastes. You've paid your dues. There are plenty of makers who do benefit from that feedback, as long as they're willing to receive it. Doesn't mean they have to do everything the way collectors say things should be, but there's always a nugget of info to get.
 
SharpByCoop said:
Just to be clear, Peter used the term Master and not Mastersmith. I think it's a key difference.
Coop
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Coop,

Thanks, that is exactly correct.

The words teacher and school can be readily interchanged with the word master. The purpose of a school is to allow us to master certain skill sets relatively easily and quickly. You certainly can reinvent the wheel each time you build yourself a new car, but it is not an efficient methodology. That is what I was trying to get at.

P
 
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