Another Off Topic Post on the WTC, link to pix.

Yvsa

Yvsa

Joined
May 18, 1999
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Guys I found this quite by accident when I got one of the weather updates from my ISP's bot.
I was looking around for information on the fire bans we often get in Oklahoma during this time of the year when I happened to peek in this link.
There is one particular pic, the link on the far bottom left IIRC, that shows more detail of ground zero than I have seen to date.
The pic was taken from the roof of a neighboring building and it is awesome!!!!
No pic I have seen gives such an idea of the destruction that took place on Sept 11th.
This really brought it home to me as just how bad it is there!!!!:(
There are also some lidar pix that helped the engineers to find where many important details of the structures were located to help the firemen dig in the right places. The text explains it better than me, check it out.
Also check out the link at the top of the page where it says, "Return to story."
There are some more links there that you might be interested in.

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories/s798b.htm
 
I just downloaded the pic on the bottom right link. The pix on TV have been absolutely nothing compared to what these show.
If anyone can look at these and then think we should stop the bombing during Ramadan........:(

Maybe it's a good thing I can't see the whole pic all at once, then again maybe it isn't.
The first pic I looked at didn't portray the scope of the destruction and it was the most complete I had seen until then. The other pic is totally overwhelming for me.
At last I can cry.....
 
I haven't been this shocked in a few weeks. I can't believe the amount of damage. Unbelievable. Thank you for the link.
 
I use to work in that area. The 3.5 meg picture is amazing. Nothing in the press comes close to getting the right scale on this.
 
Originally posted by Bill Martino
Send the link to the Peaceniks.
Click to expand...

Qui, moi?

I have some very strong thoughts about this. The first is that we're using these images to wilfully restoke a dying fire that was better left dead - grieve and move on, no good can come of wallowing in unhappy history. When teenagers do this, they call it "angst".

My second thought is that when we see this scale of destruction, we might decide to learn the value of life from it.
 
Rust, if you think this is a dying fire you have absolutely no understanding of Americans. We may turn the other cheek for many things, but when our innocents are cut down in cold blood, our fire stays lit. As to the value of life, life has only the value that its bearer puts on it. We value ours, and our own, and when we have been aroused we will exact justice, whether it takes the form of apprehension and trial, or simple retribution. You've spoken your thoughts before, and I've offended you by commenting on them. Go back to your pasture and graze with sheep, or stand like a man. You may imagine things are as you would like them to be in your ideal utopia, or you can live in the real world. I don't think you will like the real world.
 
WE know the value of life and it's not free. I am a Buddhist and value life greatly but I am not on the same level as the Dalai Lama. If fact, his own brother would like to take Tibet back by force of arms.

I'm sorry, Rust, but I'm not ready to grieve and move on. I'd rather take the steps to see the possibility of a repeat performance greatly diminushed.

I never said I was a good Buddhist.
 
Akhmed the subsistence farmer knows nothing of terrorists, or of aeroplanes, or of skyscrapers, Walosi. And no, I do not and will not ever understand Americans as you describe them - they sound very much like terrorists.

Insult me, denigrate my values and beliefs, meet me with hostility - I accuse you of mirroring the very thing you purpose to fight. And so long as the aping continues, we will be no more than apes.
 
Rust, I can't help but admire your philosophy but I'd like to know in this less than perfect world we live in what would you have us to do? Give us some specifics.

And, one more time just for the record. I'm not a good Buddhist and I'd pull the trigger at a one man firing squad or drop the cyanide in the gas chamber on any or all of the terrorists in a second.
 
Bill, I am humbled by your admiration for my philosophy. I'm just some guy who stands up for his values. If my words had enough weight to give people pause, I would ask them to stop and take a deep breath. Count to ten. To look at the person next to them, and to see a real live person; not a stereotypical charicature of what they think they ought to be. To examine themselves and their own motives before judging another and calling themselves righteous.

And to Mike, I fail to see how that post was any more offensive than innuendoes of cowardice and foolishness. My post, at least, was made without venom. With anger, but without venom. I suspect that I've touched a raw nerve, in voicing my opinion that American revenge is little different from Middle Eastern revenge.
 
Rust, I don't want you to go away. I welcome diverse points of view and I'm sorry that Mohd has decided to stay away.

But, I'm still waiting for specifics. Would you still feel the same way if your wife and children had been killed by terrorists?

A couple of questions that may help me understand: Have you ever lost anyone to violence? Have you served in the military? Have you lived outside Canada? How old are you?
 
Yes, Rust, Qui Moi indeed. I AM a mirror image of those we fight - an opposite. Achmet may know only hand to mouth subsistence, and not understand what has happened to his world. Millions of Achmets have died throughout history, not understanding why, or even who has killed them, and it continues as it has ever before. The struggle is for control. Control of a piece of ground, a way of life or a commercial concern. The difference is in who has the control, and what they do with it. The beliefs and philosphy matter very little, except to the extent to which they better the human condition as it exists, not as it should be. Anything good or desireable in this life must be guarded and protected. When it is attacked, it must be defended. Make no mistake, you are believing in a truth, but it cannot be achieved by simply sitting down and forgetting. Those who want what we have, or what may be left afterward, will never stop. They cannot be annihilated, but they can be reduced and left in fear until they regain numbers and start it all over again. Our lives will never be the same. Until now, we haven't suffered inside our borders because those outside them have been afraid of the consequences. The peace we have known has been at the price of creating a ring of potential force around us, and a history of using that force when attacked. Someone on another forum uses a tag that goes something like "Peace loving men send brutal men to do dirty things so that they may sleep at night". I've spent years being one of the "brutal" men, and the revelations from those years ring louder than anything I took away from college or the church. Those from later generations have only history and philosophy to guide them, and tend to ignore the lessons of history which don't jibe with their ideals. Feel strongly, as you will, but read history and think. Your ideals go in the right direction, but your implementation is flawed.
 
That post from one who's been there and done that and much appreciated. Experience is the best teacher.
 
First up, your questions, Bill.

I have neither wife nor children; I can't say how I'd feel if they'd been killed. I think I would want to have someone to blame. But as someone who can distance himself somewhat, I recognize that this isn't the right thing to do.

I have never lost anybody to violence. However, I have very clear memories of standing helplessly by as my best friend was permenantly brain-damaged by a group of kids 'having fun', on his 12th birthday. I have been a victim of violence for most of my life, and later became violent in turn - I have a very strong understanding of the cyclic nature of violence.

I can not, to the best of my knowledge, join the Canadian military, due to type 1 diabetes. I have not lived outside of Canada. I am 27 years old.

Originally posted by Walosi
Make no mistake, you are believing in a truth, but it cannot be achieved by simply sitting down and forgetting.
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I think this can be attributed to a miscommunication - I never intended to imply that forgetting is even acceptable. My meaning was that it isn't healthy to make an effort to make yourself mad again when you feel the fire starting to die down. And it has been - I've seen it. Less anger, less use of words like "nuke" and "raghead". It's been more calm, as it should be after a period of grief. That's healthy.

Those who want what we have, or what may be left afterward, will never stop. They cannot be annihilated, but they can be reduced and left in fear until they regain numbers and start it all over again.
Click to expand...

I strongly question whether there's an accurate understanding of what it is that the terrorists (and I mean the terrorists specifically) really want. I get the distinct impression that they're not sure, themselves. Just that there's this American evil that they're supposed to hate and hate and hate.

That's not too hard to kill, using diplomacy and equitable foreign policy. Not easy, but perhaps less costly than a war every five years. A reign of terror may be effective, but I have a problem with it on two levels: Firstly, it is very expensive to maintain, in both funds and in the lives of a nation's youth. Secondly, it stands against that rock of Gibraltar that every American has been yelling about since this all started - Freedom.

Our lives will never be the same. Until now, we haven't suffered inside our borders because those outside them have been afraid of the consequences. The peace we have known has been at the price of creating a ring of potential force around us, and a history of using that force when attacked.
Click to expand...

In part, I might agree with this. However, there are different ways of holding power. Canada, also, has been all but immune to attack. Our military, though some of the finest in the world, is diminutive; our power to defend comes through diplomacy and the formation of trustworthy alliances. I've long contended that it's better to have a living friend than a dead enemy. And I wonder, if fear is no longer a deterrent, then might a new way be needed?

Someone on another forum uses a tag that goes something like "Peace loving men send brutal men to do dirty things so that they may sleep at night". I've spent years being one of the "brutal" men, and the revelations from those years ring louder than anything I took away from college or the church. Those from later generations have only history and philosophy to guide them, and tend to ignore the lessons of history which don't jibe with their ideals. Feel strongly, as you will, but read history and think. Your ideals go in the right direction, but your implementation is flawed.
Click to expand...

Of course it's flawed - these are human beings we're talking about, not some sort of reasonable beast. But if I don't stand for what I believe to be right, and try to reach for my ideal, what the hell good am I anyways?
 
Hang in, Rust. It's hard to swim upstream -- but keep trying.

Thanks for the answers. I'm guessing but I believe you might feel diffently about all of it if you'd lost your family in the WTC. Try to project into that situation. Second, I think you might feel diffently if you'd had the chance to serve in the Canadian military during WWII or Korea. Third, I think if you were my age and had done and seen the things I have you might also feel diffently about our reaction to the attack on the WTC.

One last question: If a rabid dog were trying to bite you would you try to pet it or kill it?
 
Rust,
I consider myself a warrior. A person who strives to do what is right no matter the consequences. If I may die while attempting those actions so be it.

I have lost my dignity, pride and self respect, and in doing so I have stood naked before God. Call him/ her/ it what you like, after doing so one begins to recognize the importance of those around you, those you love, and those you have never met.

I have spilt the blood of those around me, and have awoken late at night only to cry at the loss I have inflicted. My brother is much like you, a pacifist, he was and still is ashamed of what I did. He cannot understand it, yet he has never tryed to wear my shoes. He has never lost what I have had, and then go to find what was taken.

I do not agree with violence, although I have participated in plenty of it in my 20 years of life. I know now alot of what I did made me who I am and was wrong, yet somewhere I have also found a place for violence.

There are those who target spicificly civilians, and those who target spicifically governments. There are those who kill civilians, and those who kill soldiers. There are those who calculatedly murder, and those who wage war. Guess where I place my use of force and use of violence?

Rust, my questions to you are

What would make you go to war?
What would you die for?
What would you kill for?
Lastly, what would you sacrifice your family for?

I am curious as to your views on the subject.

Thank you.
 
Bill, I think I've been swimming upstream for an awfully long time. Don't worry, I'm not liable to give it up any time soon. As to your question, realistically I'd have to say that I'd make every effort to avoid the dog. But I'd kill it if I had to. I would not, however, follow up by killing every other dog in the neighbourhood - not even the merely vicious ones.

Originally posted by SamuraiDave
Rust,
I consider myself a warrior. A person who strives to do what is right no matter the consequences. If I may die while attempting those actions so be it.
Click to expand...

As strange as it may seem to you, I consider myself a warrior as well. Or at least one who tries to be what he perceives a warrior to be.

My brother is much like you, a pacifist, he was and still is ashamed of what I did.
Click to expand...

I think I've stated it before - I am not a pacifist. For me, it's much as you say:

I do not agree with violence, although I have participated in plenty of it in my 20 years of life. I know now alot of what I did made me who I am and was wrong, yet somewhere I have also found a place for violence.
Click to expand...

The difference, perhaps, being that I've found a different answer for what and when the time for killing is.

Rust, my questions to you are

What would make you go to war?
What would you die for?
What would you kill for?
Lastly, what would you sacrifice your family for?
Click to expand...

That's some interesting and thoughtful questions.

I would go to war in defence of my most sacred principles, where the value of life is in grave danger.

I would die for... well, I wouldn't. You fight to live - who ever heard of fighting to die? If my death had some point... I don't know what I would die for. It's hard to imagine a scenario where I would not have a chance to live.

I would kill in the immediate defence of anybody who needed it, possibly excepting a few people who have caused me grief - I am not a saint. I would kill a clearly defined enemy of life. I hope I would be strong enough not to kill in anger or in revenge.

The last question... has two answers. At first reading, I was still thinking in terms of life and death, and my answer was that their lives are not mine to give. However, I think I had it mixed up. I would sacrifice my link to my family... this is a hard one, because I have a strong sense of duty. But I would sacrifice that link for a stronger duty.
 
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