Breaking knives

[Thomas Linton]

Do you really care if I tell you it is? Will you rush out and buy a RAT 3 because that is what I like right now? Still I would like to know those situations that you think you will need the stouter knife, dig through ice to get water? Pry boulders? Chop through bones? What are those tasks not restricted to slicing? Chris

Chris, I'm trying to understand your position here. If one can't know what "too much" is in your opinion, how do we evaluate/reply to your opinion that you doubt the need for a "too much" knife?

I own Rat 3 analogs and have handled a couple of Rat 3's. Certainly stouter than any MORA I've seen or heard about.

I told you exactly what I used a knife for other than cutting/slicing. But, hey, repetition is good: 1) once had to dig to put out an underground root fire; 2) once had to dig for water; 3) several times have needed to baton wood to get at dry interor, not counting times when I batoned without need strictly speaking (either didn't have saw or before learned how to split with a saw). In all cases, I was happy that I was not limited to a MORA. Never did any of the three things you described 'cause I was never in that position.

 

[runningboar]

Fonly,
I think you are right and I have caused enough trouble, I just got home and I am dead tired and have to get some sleep. I think we can sum things up with, use what ever you need too or makes you happy, like so many things, Ginger or Mary Ann, it is personal preference. Good night, Chris

 

[Fonly]

I told you exactly what I used a knife for other than cutting/slicing. But, hey, repetition is good: 1) once had to dig to put out an underground root fire; 2) once had to dig for water; 3) several times have needed to baton wood to get at dry interor, not counting times when I batoned without need strictly speaking (either didn't have saw or before learned how to split with a saw). In all cases, I was happy that I was not limited to a MORA. Never did any of the three things you described 'cause I was never in that position.

Very true, though did you go into those situations knowing those things would happen? Did you purposely put that knife at risk?

What Im saying is if you knew these situaitons would happen, or even thought they might, why not bring tools more designed for those jobs. I know most will say they dont have room, or its too much weight. Well, you have to draw the line somwhere, you have to bring a certain level of protection. With an axe, or heck even a medium fixed and a folding saw I could make a digging tool, most of what happens in a survival situation I could make tools from nature to combat them.

 

[Fonly]

Fonly,
I think you are right and I have caused enough trouble, I just got home and I am dead tired and have to get some sleep. I think we can sum things up with, use what ever you need too or makes you happy, like so many things, Ginger or Mary Ann, it is personal preference. Good night, Chris

haha, not only you, I've done my share just as everyone else, But I agree


PERSONAL PREFERENCE GUYS!

 

[perksy]

204 posts to arrive at this Awesome. Why is this argument repeated so often??

 

[Fonly]

A few pages in it turns into pissing contest, everytime

We tried last time, it just has to be set that its personal preference, come on guys, were civilized.

nuff outa' me.

 

[runningboar]

Chris, I'm trying to understand your position here. If one can't know what "too much" is in your opinion, how do we evaluate/reply to your opinion that you doubt the need for a "too much" knife?

I own Rat 3 analogs and have handled a couple of Rat 3's. Certainly stouter than any MORA I've seen or heard about.

I told you exactly what I used a knife for other than cutting/slicing. But, hey, repetition is good: 1) once had to dig to put out an underground root fire; 2) once had to dig for water; 3) several times have needed to baton wood to get at dry interor, not counting times when I batoned without need strictly speaking (either didn't have saw or before learned how to split with a saw). In all cases, I was happy that I was not limited to a MORA. Never did any of the three things you described 'cause I was never in that position.

I guess I can stay up a minute longer, you are trying to corner me and twist my words, I never said a mora was the be all, end all, all I asked is for what purpose do you need something more? I also never said I don't like any knife but a mora and won't carry anything else. Everything you said you needed a stout knife for IMO can be done quite well with a mora, you disagree, which is your right.

To answer your question IMO what is "too much" when a knifes cutting ability is compromised in order to make it useful for something else, such as lateral strength or chopping. Now my opinion of cutting ability is different from everyone elses so you can continue to chase me around forever and I just might continue to respond but not tonight. Also you are arguing for the sake of it and to test either mine or your skills, me and you both know that a BRKT Aurora is not even close to the type of knives I am talking about. Chris

 

[Thomas Linton]

Fonley, I did have the tool that was fully up to the job -- in all instances. Not happily so, but so. I sure tried to be careful 'cause the knife was my uncle's from WWII. And no, I don't see the praticality of carrying on my back every specialized tool I might need. Heck, a full splitting axe does lots better at splitting than a knife - or a hand axe.

Exchanging opinions and experiences in a respectful manner is good. That's the only possible cure for the limitations of personal experience. Loaded words just get in the way.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I guess I can stay up a minute longer, you are trying to corner me and twist my words, I never said a mora was the be all, end all, all I asked is for what purpose do you need something more? I also never said I don't like any knife but a mora and won't carry anything else. Everything you said you needed a stout knife for IMO can be done quite well with a mora, you disagree, which is your right.

To answer your question IMO what is "too much" when a knifes cutting ability is compromised in order to make it useful for something else, such as lateral strength or chopping. Now my opinion of cutting ability is different from everyone elses so you can continue to chase me around forever and I just might continue to respond but not tonight. Also you are arguing for the sake of it and to test either mine or your skills, me and you both know that a BRKT Aurora is not even close to the type of knives I am talking about. Chris

Chris, have a good night.

 

[Fonly]

Exchanging opinions and experiences in a respectful manner is good. That's the only possible cure for the limitations of personal experience. Loaded words just get in the way.

Exactly!

We all can agree that the best tool for the job is the job it was made for, not a jack of all trades. In the real world a 5 in one tool is practically usless. I mean even if you have a super knife that stays sharper 2 times longer, and is 2 times stronger, you also look at double the price, and almost double the weight.

The way I see it, Buying a knife to do everything isnt the anwsure. That knife is going to break some time, it has too. When the handle on an axe breaks, you make a new one, sure its gonna be hard, but it can be done.

For me the 4" knife and axe take the cake, but you understand what im trying to say?

 

[sodak]

Exactamundo, and it is pointless to try to justify it any other way.

Didn't you read my post? I gave you one. I could come up with several more, but this thread has really drifted.

It's also possible to compromise here. I generally carry several knives, and usually one from each "camp", one thin slicer, one brute chopper. I have also thinned out the bevels on some of my "sharpened prybars", and they still retain a ton of strength while having a fine edge for cutting. In fact, they easily out-cut my Moras. Let me say that again. They easily outcut my Moras.

You gotta love technology. Sometimes you can have your cake and eat it too.

 

[skammer]

A large knife made for that heavy of work is going to weigh the same as a hatchet, whats the diffrence.:jerkit:

Plus not taking the right tools is going to be your down fall not mine, make the decisions you wish.

Fon,

Really give it a break man. As you can hump my 40+lb sar loadout for 3 days in hell for me anyday. Matter of fact I will tack on a chainsaw, gas and oil for you as they are "better tools for the job". Split hairs somewhere else you dont need and axe or hatchet to do what you need to do in survival situations or SAR ops but you do need a decent blade. If we need an axe we use a chainsaw air dropped into us other than that its a bomb proof blade. Most teams dont even own an axe or hatchet as they are viewed as useless. Stoked up chainsaws are a different matter entirely .

I mean seriously have you every been out of a campground and had to hump gear like someones life depended on it?

An extra 2-5 lbs makes a big difference over time and distance and If I were to carry more it would be more Medical gear and water not a friggin axe, I (many others as well )choose a largish blade in my work as an axe or hatchet cant do anything I need that my largish blade can't do and it does more as its a cutting impliment as well.

When I need to build a cabin I will use and axe, chainsaw and hatchet I promiss, until then its a retarded notion.

You go and carry your little hatchet I couldnt care less, at least its something.

Skam

 

[skammer]

I really never doubted your need for one, I like my m4 but I wouldn't suggest it for a hunting rifle. I wasn't talking about the stove for warmth but to get hot liquids into casualties fast. Specialized tools for specialized jobs, this whole thread started when I read someone say that a mora is cheap and nowhere near tough enough for a general purpose woods knife, I beg to differ and wanted to know what people do to need such tough knives. Chris



You edited to quote my BS comment so I thought I would throw this one at you, I made this quote on page 5 but lots of people seem to have skipped over it.

Chris your stove comment is spot on. its for hot fluids and in particular hot jello (explain later I am tired). Stoves make a big difference in gaining fluids into the core of a cold subject as well as making water from snow or ice. Finding water under ice is quicker in frozen no snow conditions.

As far as the tools go my post above explains that. As I have abused my blade in real world applications I truly know what it can do and I am skilled in using it. It decreases time for important chores (not possible without a tool or inferior one)as its large and cuts chops prys very well. When I am on missions and training I and many others carry them as they are a perfect compromize between weight and function.

The things I do on a regular bases live or training is 100% the things people need to do in most survival situations so I teach and reccommend this tool as a way to hedge your bets in disaster. Not carrying tools and relying on skills is stupid and arrogant as mentioned before. Base knowledge only goes so far then tools augment that scenario for faster work. Man has been using tools since walking upright and relying on them as they can make the difference in the end. Sure learn how not to need them then learn the benefit of utilizing them to your best outcome of a situation.

To do this you need hard use tools that get the job done you need to. If its a small cheaper blade then so be it but I dissagree from expereince and that is my right.

Now get to your post soldier and thanks for serving.

Skam

 

[Ravaillac]

Not carrying tools and relying on skills is stupid and arrogant as mentioned before.

Oh well, same old story.

Some people people will tell you that going in the wood without satellite phone, distress flares, a 30 days food supply and an helicopter crew on stand by is downright madness.

When it comes to cold weather survival (as it seems implied in that thred) I think I would care a lot more about what I wear, than about what knife I carry.

 

[pict]

Skammer,

The big blade makes sense for what you are doing. I have always wondered about people prying with their knives. I've been at this a long time and I have never once pried apart a stump. I think if I lived in an area with a resource like fatwood I would give it a higher priority.

Here in Central Brazil there is no such thing. I think that's where most of this debate originates. We are approaching wilderness activity from our various points of view and doing wilderness activity in widely varied locations. We have no fatwood but we do have non-waterlogging, oily hardwoods that we can take advantage of to get fires going in the the rain. (no prying necessary)

I could argue long and hard as to how the GB forest axes are worthless dead weight in the wilderness. The folks up in Michigan, Canada or Scandinavia will take offense and make all sorts of counterpoints, all of which fall flat here in Central Brazil. Here the only axes you will ever see in a forest are huge felling axes, but we go through machetes like kleenex.

The machete is the do-all blade here but if someone is pressing it into service for small knife tasks they will sink that machete into the first available log and switch to whatever small knife is available.

If we had fatwood stumps all over then I could see that the machete would be poor at digging/prying off chunks. The bottom line is that you have to know where you are and what is available out there before you can work out how and what you will need to take advantage of it.

The ONE KNIFE concept does work. I have made my BK-7 do the job here in Brazil enough to know I can make it work. It is a frustrating compromise at times and I know from extensive experience that I'm better served by a machete and a scandi, even if that scandi is "just a mora".

I look at it all like this. There are riflemen, shotgunners, and handgunners and all of them have their place and there is plenty of overlap in their roles. They each have a place where they really shine too, so you'd better know what you're about with all three and choose the right tool for the job. Mac

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Not carrying tools and relying on skills is stupid and arrogant as mentioned before.

I would like to know why this nonsense is only noted with knives. If I asked for a durable compass no one would take such a stance.

They each have a place where they really shine too, so you'd better know what you're about ...

In general for anything you have, gear or skills or knowledge; find out what is needed for where you are and best suited to you.

-Cliff

 

[Chosen-frozen]

Never been to an environment yet where I had to.

Pict, who I respect very much, says that in Brazil in certain months it is necessary to baton and I believe him without doubt. So I am sure that there are places it is necessary but I have never personally seen it. Chris

Never personally been to Brazil, But I have a friend who spent 2 years there as a missionary. He said that certain times of the year it rained EVERY day. Maybe no more than 20 minutes, followed by sunny skies for the rest of the day, but still daily rain for a month or more.
In most survival situations, the #1 killer isn`tstarvation or dehydration. It`s hypothermia. So even though most of us don`t need to chop wood for a fire (burn it as is and then push the pieces together) the time may come when you need to do some heavy chopping quikly to erect some kind of shelter.Even if it`s just cutting 1 or 2 poles to lean on a deafall as a frame.

When I was making knives in a custom shop one of our customers was a survival instructor at the U.S. Army Ranger school. He had broken 2 Ka-bars and a Randal in the field. One of the Ka-bars was broken when he used the handle like a hammer to crack the shell of a turtle he wanted to eat.The stick tang broke and the handle fell apart.

World Survival Institute`s founder Kris Janowski teaches arctis survival to US Airforce pilots in Alaska among other things. He wrote a long article on how knives that perform fine in most environments snap like twigs when the temp hits -25 degrees or colder.

 

[ashtxsniper]

I would like to know why this nonsense is only noted with knives. If I asked for a durable compass no one would take such a stance.



In general for anything you have, gear or skills or knowledge; find out what is needed for where you are and best suited to you.

-Cliff

If you want a durable compass/gear thread then go start one this thread is already growing rapidly with enough retards responding already.


If you want to know what is to much or what is not enough then go test it in the field instead of arguing back and forth about stupid hypothetical situations and minor details. I carry quite a few knives in the woods so all my bases are covered. I don't need to try and convince anyone of what they need because I know what I need. My choices work well for me as I am sure others choices will work well for them. OK rant over for now.

 

[pict]

It is very typical most years during rainy season here to get nearly constant rain for more than a month. That rain will vary from a torrential downpour to heavy mist/drizzle, but it doesn't actually stop. When it does stop it will remain heavily overcast. In the beginning and end of the season you will get the occasional sunny day, intensly hot and evening thundershowers.

There is no such thing as dry tinder and vertically standing dead wood will be waterlogged to the core. Splitting certain types of dead wood only results in split, waterlogged wood. Other woods, such as Candeia, are rock hard and oily and the water only penetrates a few mm. Splitting a single piece about 18 inches long, four inches diameter, some onto splinters, some into fuzz sticks, some scraped very fine to make tinder, will result in a very hot fire that will boil the water out of other wood.

Candeia itself will not establish a base of coals but it does burn bright and hot and gets things going. This is the only wood that I need to baton and then only enough to get a fire set. The rest of it will dry out and burn just fine eventually. I then keep Candeia on hand to stoke the fire up again if all I have is waterlogged wood. I usually will stack a pile of waterlogged wood near the fire to dry it out.

Th cool thing about my area is that there are all sorts of rocky overhangs in which to shelter.

Right now it is so dry out there you could start a forest fire by striking a ferro rod near the ground in a few random places. We just had one night of drizzle, but that was the first time in four months. Mac

 

[Cliff Stamp]

If you want a durable compass/gear thread then go start one this thread is already growing rapidly with enough retards responding already.

My point here is that if you can argue that durability is a desirable attribute in survival gear, it is hard to then be consistent and say it is ok to want a compass which can take some abuse but if you want that in a knife you are a novice/newbie.

It is very typical most years during rainy season here to get nearly constant rain for more than a month.

I have seen in one Mears show that there is some plant that you can use live and burn. Is there anything like that locally? Protected from the rain simply by the natural outer covering?

-Cliff