Recommendation? CATRA results for common steels missing

[ace]

Below as you asked details on specific knives and my goals. It’s off topic to the thread name but may help you reply better to my needs.

There are so many companies and models that I was looking at that it does not make sense to ask people on formuł for each and every one. Especially that I’m in first please looking for general purpose kitchen knives starting with chefs knife. I started by checking kitchen knife steels. Quickly I learned that most kitchen knives available in stores are made of either cheap Chinese steel. That 1.4116 or X50 steel used in German knives is much better. I also learned about HRC. So my initial choice was for Zwilling Pro series in Christmas sales (in Europe normally cost 130$ and on sale 80$). So this was my base for new chefs and petty knives, together with curved Hendi bread knife. I can still return these
Then I learned about other harder steels like VG10/VG5/SG2/AUS10/AUS8/AUS6 and Japanese knives. However I learned that these are thin and much easier to chip and so I would like to have one or two such knives for fun. Here I was thinking about Tojiro DP3 21 Gyuto, Kotetsu VG10 Damascus, Tsunehisa AS Migaki Kiritsuke, Tamahagane San Black Gyuto, Suncraft Priffesional SG2 Guyto and even Kanetsugu Zuiun Kiritsuke in SG2.

Now after reading lest night about CATRA tests and tangible/measurable differences in steel types I do want to include that in my final choice. And so:
For general purpose kitchen knives for not worrying too much if my wife will treat them well, I see x50 steel isn’t actually as good and there are better choices. I also don’t want to make it too expensive. So seeing that Global steel has better opinions than x50 and they brag about great Catra results I want to check where they sand in comparison based on numbers. And potentially change Zwilling to Global. Or any other available brand that may be better than Global. I don’t want to invest in crafters hand made super knives that will cost probably 5x that of Global or Zwilling.

For a hobby/investigation driven Japanese knife choice I see from CATRA that SG2 is not that much better than VG10, Aogami Super isn’t much wear resistant, I started looking for some alternatives. I see SG2 knives are x2 as expensive as VG10 and while highly praised in internet and used for higher end knives, based on CATRA this cost may not be that justified.
Here my budget is larger and I’m looking for some better available alternatives. When I get the good steel options I may only then consider specific knife alternatives to discuss

Toniro DP are good inexpensive knives. Takamura sg2 are good as lasers if that is your thing. Zwilling Kramer are pretty good in different steels for a more western style and if the profile works for you.

Once again I wouldn't base my purchase based on steel alone. Kitchen knives are very much more than steel.

 

[ace]

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[heathcliff]

Steel type choice is an important one. It’s not like you have only one knife available after choosing steel. This choice affects required maintenance and safety measures. Also most people in this hobby actually do talk about steel, which one is better and for what reasons etc.
I did hold heavy Tojiro DP and Basic, Suncraft Profesional, Tamahagane, much lighter and different handle Kotetsu. And some other knives in store. I know what to expect from different shape, heft, handle type, finish and I do understand in general where a specific knife from internet will land. On the other side buying knives only from store that you can take into your hand is very limiting if you don’t have several stores with large selection.

From hundreds or thousands of knives available you need to make some narrowing down. One will narrow down on finish that they are looking for and pick cheapest, someone else will narrow down on handle they like the most.

I will feel best to narrow down on:
1. Steel and it’s properties
2. Availability
3. Price
4. Shape (gyuto or kiritsuke, flat profile not like western style belly that I see in most KAI Shun)
5. Handle and way blade is attached
6. Finish of the blade (I don’t like mat/sanded Damascus, it gets dirty quickly, I like clean brushed)

 

[ace]

Steel type choice is an important one. It’s not like you have only one knife available after choosing steel. This choice affects required maintenance and safety measures. Also most people in this hobby actually do talk about steel, which one is better and for what reasons etc.
I did hold heavy Tojiro DP and Basic, Suncraft Profesional, Tamahagane, much lighter and different handle Kotetsu. And some other knives in store. I know what to expect from different shape, heft, handle type, finish and I do understand in general where a specific knife from internet will land. On the other side buying knives only from store that you can take into your hand is very limiting if you don’t have several stores with large selection.

From hundreds or thousands of knives available you need to make some narrowing down. One will narrow down on finish that they are looking for and pick cheapest, someone else will narrow down on handle they like the most.

I will feel best to narrow down on:
1. Steel and it’s properties
2. Availability
3. Price
4. Shape (gyuto or kiritsuke, flat profile not like western style belly that I see in most KAI Shun)
5. Handle and way blade is attached
6. Finish of the blade (I don’t like mat/sanded Damascus, it gets dirty quickly, I like clean brushed)

Looks like you know what you want. Good luck on your journey.

 

[Dr. Rayeye]

Steel type choice is an important one. It’s not like you have only one knife available after choosing steel. This choice affects required maintenance and safety measures. Also most people in this hobby actually do talk about steel, which one is better and for what reasons etc.
I did hold heavy Tojiro DP and Basic, Suncraft Profesional, Tamahagane, much lighter and different handle Kotetsu. And some other knives in store. I know what to expect from different shape, heft, handle type, finish and I do understand in general where a specific knife from internet will land. On the other side buying knives only from store that you can take into your hand is very limiting if you don’t have several stores with large selection.

From hundreds or thousands of knives available you need to make some narrowing down. One will narrow down on finish that they are looking for and pick cheapest, someone else will narrow down on handle they like the most.

I will feel best to narrow down on:
1. Steel and it’s properties
2. Availability
3. Price
4. Shape (gyuto or kiritsuke, flat profile not like western style belly that I see in most KAI Shun)
5. Handle and way blade is attached
6. Finish of the blade (I don’t like mat/sanded Damascus, it gets dirty quickly, I like clean brushed)

From one of your posts: "Years ago my wife and I received a set of Wusthof kitchen knives. Excited to have a nice set of knives, I've been disappointed with them. I can sharpen them for my wife and in a few days you'd never know it, they are dull as can be."

IMO, the problem was not, and is not the Wusthof kitchen knives. I have had and used Wusthof Classic Ikon knives for the past 6 years and not have had any difficulty maintaining a better than adequate sharpness--relying on regular honing and simple sharpening tools--and I'm not alone. To re-establish sharpness, bring you Wustoffs to a credible sharpening service, and sign up for a knife maintenance workshop and bring your Wusthofs. If you'd like an upgrade that would require less maintenance, there might be a Japanese knife in your future where maintenance might require little more than a loaded strop.

Identifying an ideal kitchen knife steel is a false problem for a home cook doing simple prep work at home.

 

[elevator man]

Really? I count seeing the entire edge reflecting light and not cutting things well as being dull. I keep them maintained with a sharpmaker at 40 degrees. They get sharp but get dull not long after. I'm more than adequate at sharpening knives and do not need a workshop, or Wusthof, as that wouldn't change the knives.

Hard for the problem to be much else. The knife is a single tool here. They are nice knives overall that seem to use a cheaper stainless. If you like your knives that's great. Mine are the urban farmer series. Different steel maybe?

So you don't think steel makes any difference at all just because its being used at home instead of a commercial kitchen?

 

[Dr. Rayeye]

Really? I count seeing the entire edge reflecting light and not cutting things well as being dull. I keep them maintained with a sharpmaker at 40 degrees. They get sharp but get dull not long after. I'm more than adequate at sharpening knives and do not need a workshop, or Wusthof, as that wouldn't change the knives.

Hard for the problem to be much else. The knife is a single tool here. They are nice knives overall that seem to use a cheaper stainless. If you like your knives that's great. Mine are the urban farmer series. Different steel maybe?

So you don't think steel makes any difference at all just because its being used at home instead of a commercial kitchen?

Your inability to keep your knives adequately sharp is not the fault of Wusthof. If you contact them, they'll help you get your knives sharp again and remain sharp. If a typical user had the problem you report, Wusthof would have been out of business long ago. You need help.

 

[thebrain]

Dr Rayeye your rude and inaccurate comments do not go unnoticed. Wusthof knives are average at best in common kitchen cutlery, they have a reputation mostly among people that don't really use them, that's why they stay in business. Besides that every known knife company has at one time or another made a bad knife or sometimes batches of knives, where the heat treat or steel was out of spec, so perhaps calm your crap attitude. My late mother's Wusthof boning knife doesn't hold an edge very long at all and it has never seen a dishwasher or any possible issue to cause a heat treat problem so it is me??? It must be my inability to sharpen right?? Whittling hair and dry shaving my face must be a fluke and I just don't know how to sharpen right?

 

[Dr. Rayeye]

Dr Rayeye your rude and inaccurate comments do not go unnoticed. Wusthof knives are average at best in common kitchen cutlery, they have a reputation mostly among people that don't really use them, that's why they stay in business. Besides that every known knife company has at one time or another made a bad knife or sometimes batches of knives, where the heat treat or steel was out of spec, so perhaps calm your crap attitude. My late mother's Wusthof boning knife doesn't hold an edge very long at all and it has never seen a dishwasher or any possible issue to cause a heat treat problem so it is me??? It must be my inability to sharpen right?? Whittling hair and dry shaving my face must be a fluke and I just don't know how to sharpen right?

I bought my Wusthof Classic Ikon Chef Knife six years ago. If you came to my kitchen today, you'd find it just as sharp as it was 6 years ago. If performance had deteriorated, I would have contacted Wusthof, not tried to discover the best steel out there for kitchen knives, and track down the presumed cost effective knife with that steel--and buy it.

But that's just me.

 

[chalby]

Wusthof's should hold up OK, but the steel they use is on the low end for edge holding.

I would suspect the wife using the knives on ceramic plates or a marble benchtop being the culprit over a bad heat treatment etc if they were dull after a few days. I know from experience that someone cutting something on a plate can mushroom an edge pretty quick and there aren't too many steels out there that will handle that sort of abuse.

 

[thebrain]

If anyone claims that a kitchen knife is just as sharp today as it was 6 years ago is either lying, doesn't know what sharp or hasn't used them at all. My suggestion, it is just you Mr. Rayeye.

 

[Blues]

Let's try to keep to the subject matter rather than trade barbs with one another. Thank you.

 

[thebrain]

To the original posters question, I can't help with the CATRA results on certain steels but I would be more interested in the heat treatment for the specific steel than the steel itself. Almost every mass produced kitchen knife is softer than it could be for optimal performance to better handle the average user. Softer steel is easier to sharpen and harder to chip, therefore better for the company. I suggest Japanese kitchen cutlery if you want more optimal performance, check out eBay for all the very good Japanese kitchen knives with horribly chipped blades.

 

[ace]

I am all for buying new knives and I much prefer Japanese style knives in high alloy steels of western or Japanese origin. That said the wusthofs and Henkels of the world should not dull as quickly as some here describe when properly sharpened. These knives have stainless blades with somewhat soft heat treat, but if they are used on appropriate cutting boards they should still perform for some time. Their wear resistance is relatively high if you would compare them to low alloy steels. These usually dull due to deformation and this is why steeling is effective on these. In any case dulling as being described is usually due to cutting on bad cutting surfaces which dull all knives or improper burr removal. The steels used cling to the burr very well, so in many cases you get a wire edge, so the knife seems sharp, but dulls very quickly. With a clean edge and relatively low grid sharpening even these knives should stay sharp cutting food for some time in home use. Professionals use similar knives, but they steel and sharpen more often. They also can cut more in a day than a home cook cuts in months.

As I've said I would not discourage anyone from buying more or better knives, but I would first carefully look at the quality of burr removal and the cutting surface.

 

[thebrain]

With this being a knife forum I would suggest that most if not all here only use wood or plastic cutting boards, I rarely hear of anyone using glass or other unsuitable cutting boards on here anymore. Having used my wusthof boning knife on a few deer switching back and forth from a common carbon steel custom knife and the difference in edge holding performance was shocking. I started out with and still sometimes use lower end knives often I'm used to the almost unbreakable burr that softer than it should be stainless steel can form. Using a courser than usual stone helps, and a lower grit can give a bit more longevity on meat and other natural materials.

 

[heathcliff]

Larrin I appreciate your recent article on actual AUS8 tests that confirm your estimates.

How would you now rate another very popular Japanese knife steel AUS10? can you estimate toughness/edge retention/corrosion resistance ratings?

Thank you!

 

[RokJok]

... I was kind of suprised to see a huge lack of good steel choices in the kitchen knives compared to what you now have to pick from in pocket knives.

This is makers & marketers addressing different clientele. Us knife knuts care about criteria (steels, blade geometries, RC hardness, ease of achieving light saber sharpness, reputation of maker, etc) and are willing to spring loose the $$, if not $$$$, to get them that average household kitchen users don't care about and are unwilling to pay the price to acquire. They want a no maintenance, cheap blade that (in their eyes) can be run through the dishwasher, tossed haphazardly in a drawer, & forgotten about. Just different commodities trying to satisfy a couple different markets.

With that said, kitchen cutlery made of higher quality steels is available for those of us willing to jump down that rabbit hole, often with both feet. We are indeed fortunate to live in a time of such abundant availability. Lots of options in terms of styles, materials, and price points.

All of this to say I think when the funds are available I am going to look into the excellent folks on here making custom knives and get a really good quality knife or two made. I think that is going to be the only way to get what I want. I just couldn't find any chefs knives in s90v or maybe magnacut. But I could going custom, and even specify what hardness I'm looking for.

Sounds like a good approach to me. Best of luck on your search.

 

[heathcliff]

yes for the same price as Yu Kurosaki knives I can get custom MagnaCut Bunka with custom selected grind, shape, finish and wood handle. But that a getting expensive if someone just wants to have a good tool and not a collectible masterpiece.

 

[Dr. Rayeye]

There is a middle way for the home cook hobbyist/enthusiast who has neither the resources nor the interest to become a collector; establish the foundational cost of easily replaceable knives and establish upper limits based on a combination of performance and pleasure. I value my Seki Magoroku Nakiri--given to me 30+ years ago in Japan--as such a foundational knife. I give it a current market value of $30, and have determined that I won't spend more than 10X that price--or $300--for any new knife. Unless I can get below that pricepoint, I assign it to the enthusiast/collector--despite the urge to satisfy my fantasy.

I've used that subjective analysis to discipline my urges, and have found several $500 knives that magically dropped well below my $300 cutoff. I've also found a few knives of incredible value to me that cost little more than my foundational $30 knife--like the Shibazi f/208-2 Chinese Vegetable cleaver I purchased a few years ago. Sometimes, less is more.