Counterfeit, anyone?

Prisco and Branton restarted ATC in January 2001. Cold Steel's Vietnam Tomahawk was already in the catalog by 1993 (it was on the cover of the 1993 Special Projects catalog; the 1989-1992 online archives are incomplete, and I don't recall the year in which it was introduced). Cold Steel's Vietnam Tomahawk preceded the VTAC by at least eight years. To the best of my knowledge, Cold Steel was the first company to reproduce the LaGana tomahawk design since the original ATC went under after the Vietnam War.

The earliest references I can find for United Cutlery's Vietnam Tomahawk are from around 2009-2010, at least sixteen years after Cold Steel's introduction of its tomahawk. Here is United's description of UC2603:

"Authentic replica of military spec tomahawk issued to U.S. troops during the Vietnam War. This item features 440 stainless steel construction axe head and bit pick. The handle is crafted from impact resistant hardwood. This item includes an imitation leather snap sheath. 7 1/2" blade. 12 5/8" overall."

I don't see any credit given to Peter LaGana or his American Tomahawk Company. I also don't have any idea what "authentic" is supposed to mean in this context. As far I can tell, it means absolutely nothing.

As for the Matagi, Condor rolled out that model in, what, 2013? Cold Steel introduced the Bushman in 1995. Rationalize about Japanese bear hunting all you like. The fact of the matter is that Cold Steel sets trends in the cutlery world that lots of other companies and makers follow, most without ever crediting Cold Steel. Cold Steel always gives attribution for its designs, both internal and external.

-Steve

I don't consider the Matagi to be a Bushman ripoff. There are numerous and substantial differences between the 2 knives.


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Yes, Cold Steel's Vietnam Tomahawk came out in 1993...2 decades after the original Vietnam Tomahawk was released, a design they blatantly and openly copied, without giving LaGana a CENT. Then UC came along and copied LaGana's design too, EXACTLY LIKE COLD STEEL did. Since Cold Steel's design is, by their own admittance, a straight up rip off of LaGana's design, why do you try to argue that UC is ripping off Cold Steel, instead of ripping off the person Cold Steel ripped off first? I mean, UC even admits they're ripping LaGana's design off, since LaGana's Vietnam Tomahawk was the "military spec tomahawk issued to U.S. troops during the Vietnam War"? Why oh why are you so insistent they're ripping off Cold Steel when by their own admittance they're ripping off Peter LaGana(same as Cold Steel did). And why is it wrong of them to do it, but you have no problem with Cold Steel doing it, while we're on the subject.

I've already quoted United's ad copy for its Vietnam Tomahawk. Here's Cold Steel's from 1995:

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Decide for yourself who is giving proper attribution to Peter LaGana.

Why do I accuse United of ripping off Cold Steel? Because unlike every other company that has dabbled in LaGana-style tomahawks over the past fifteen or so years, United made an identical wood-handled version, just like Cold Steel's. The only thing they bothered to change was the color scheme. (You'll notice that I didn't mention SOG's or those from any other maker because they used synthetic handles or included some other noticeable design distinction.)

You didn't mention United's Blackthorn Shillelagh Fighting Stick (UC2970) pictured in my original post. Which scenario seems more likely:

1) United's designers picked up a historical weapons book and coincidentally came up with the Vietnam Tomahawk and the Blackthorn Shillelagh Fighting Stick, both identical to products Cold Steel was already making?

2) United's designers picked up a Cold Steel catalog and said, "These seem to be selling well for Cold Steel and we can copy them easily?"

And yes, Condor's design came out in 2013, based on a traditional weapon of the Matagi people. Just because Cold Steel inadvertantly made a similar knife earlier doesn't mean Condor is copying Cold Steel, especially considering the designer's well established interest in outdoor survival and living around the world. And, again, sorry bro, but socket handles have been around for literally hundreds of years, they're very common throughout SE Asia(which, you might notice, is where MANY of Condor's designs originated from), Thailand, and, yes, among the Matagi of Japan. Cold Steel didn't come up with that "trend" in any way, shape, or form, and trying to argue otherwise frankly just makes you look like a blind fanboy. I actually thought you were smarter than that.

I'm going to remove the photo of the Condor Matagi. I'm not doing it because of your jibes. I'm doing it because:

1) I found this photo.

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This appears to be a modern Matagi hunter bearing a similarly styled knife. It convinces me that perhaps Flowers really was trying to replicate such knives.

2) I'm tired of the whining. I never claimed that Cold Steel invented the socket-handled knife, nor that they introduced the concept to the modern world. But Cold Steel most assuredly introduced the one-piece, pressed-steel, single-thickness, socket-handled survival knife to the American buying public with its Bushman. Whether Flowers was thinking of Cold Steel's knife or not, Condor certainly recognized that it could market such a knife because of Cold Steel's success.


Old and new in modern Japan.

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-Steve
 
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By focusing on the minutiae of this thread instead of the bigger picture, a few detractors have attempted to take it down a rabbit hole. I won't let them derail the original topic. Here are some more counterfeits for everyone's edification and contemplation.

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Eagle-eyed Hermit Dave over on the Cold Steel Forums caught this one.

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Based solely on the photos, I never would have picked it out as a fake myself. If you're curious, Dave's thread about the knife and its flaws is here:

http://coldsteelforums.com/tm.aspx?m=221276&high=rajah+ii


-Steve
 
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Decide for yourself who is giving proper attribution to Peter LaGana.

Why do I accuse United of ripping off Cold Steel? Because unlike every other company that has dabbled in LaGana-style tomahawks over the past fifteen or so years, United made an identical wood-handled version, just like Cold Steel's. The only thing they bothered to change was the color scheme. (You'll notice that I didn't mention SOG's or those from any other maker because they used synthetic handles or included some other noticeable design distinction.)

You didn't mention United's Blackthorn Shillelagh Fighting Stick (UC2970) pictured in my original post. Which scenario seems more likely:

1) United's designers picked up a historical weapons book and coincidentally came up with the Vietnam Tomahawk and the Blackthorn Shillelagh Fighting Stick, both identical to products Cold Steel was already making?

2) United's designers picked up a Cold Steel catalog and said, "These seem to be selling well for Cold Steel and we can copy them easily?"

-Steve

The shillelagh is probably a copy. But United has done a lot of historical replicas too, so, uhh, yeah, it's actually not that hard to believe they're doing a historical replica with their version. As for the wood handle, umm, the original had a wood handle? If you're gonna do a historical replica, that's kinda what you would expect it to have, isn't it? They didn't say they were trying to do a updated, modernized "tactical" version of the Vietnam-era military weapon(I think they use their "M48" to fill that niche).
 
Eagle-eyed Hermit Dave over on the Cold Steel Forums caught this one.

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Based solely on the photos, I never would have picked it out as a fake myself. If you're curious, Dave's thread about the knife and its flaws is here:

http://coldsteelforums.com/tm.aspx?m=221276&high=rajah+ii


-Steve

Thanks for the credit. Copies that good would fool most people (I almost didn't catch it). It even has a stop pin. I think it would be pretty easy to tell in person, especially if you've handled the real thing.
 
OP instead of quoting all of post 18 I'm just going to respond to it .

I like cold steel as much as the next guy,own a few folders. They make a decent knife especially at the price .

What kind of puts me off about CS is their claims with the world's sharpest strongest knives , or nothing cuts like out knives . Back in the last few years when they used aus8a steel they hyped their steel so much but in the end it was just aus8a, they make a good strong knife but far from the be all end all.

Issue #2 is they built no Andrew Demo built an excellent lock in the triad lock. It may be or probably is the strongest lock on the market ,but testing other folders and deeming them failures because they don't pass IMHO a set of test that are a little bit ridiculous . They are responsible for the trend of getting a folder and spine whacko it on an attempt to break it and if it does fail it's considered garbage by some , mind you the knife that won't survive 30 spine whacks and a 250lb man doing pull ups would probably never feel a normal knife user with a tiny but if common sense o how to use a folding knife .

Is a aus8a cold steel a better knife than say a zdp-189 stretch because the cold steel lock will never fail ? Well depends on who you are I guess but me personally I don't get too caught up on locks .

The fact that cold steel also does all these tests on ballistic human skulls etc. So if I want to carry a cold steel and they publish these knives or these tests stabbing through humans what are the police likely to say if they've seen the video and I have say a CS xl folder on me ? Their marketing could be used against me the user as bad intentions for carrying that knife .

Like I said they make a good knife at a fair price . My issue is their marketing and their attitude towards other brands or makers .

Like i said I have a few of their knives off the top of my head it's been about 10 or 11. I don't see them as collector pieces or anything like that and I've used all that I've had . For what they are they are good knives .
 
Spartan00, please feel free to start a new thread about why you're not a bigger Cold Steel fan. This thread is (supposed to be) about the fraudulent reproduction of Cold Steel products and intellectual property and the financial and legal ramifications of such activity upon Cold Steel as a company.

Here are some examples.

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-Steve
 
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Spartan00, please feel free to start a new thread about why you're not a bigger Cold Steel fan. This thread is (supposed to be) about the fraudulent reproduction of Cold Steel products and intellectual property and the financial and legal ramifications of such activity upon Cold Steel as a company.

Here are some examples.

image.jpg2_zpsamffutnb.jpg


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image.jpg1_zpswcapstin.jpg



-Steve

I'm sorry I'll continue to allow you to post your blind praise without response . I responded to everything you said .
 
that fake rajah II is scary close. makes me not want to shop on the secondary market or the big sell everything online sellers where you don't know if your knife came from the right source.
 
If Cold Steel actually did make this I'd probably buy one.

I agree! It's a great, practical design that Cold Steel could do well. That would be a switch, Cold Steel ripping off the counterfeiters!

I'm sorry I'll continue to allow you to post your blind praise without response . I responded to everything you said .

I'll address one of your topics. New thread to follow.

that fake rajah II is scary close.

You aren't kidding. It even came with a separate left-handed pocket clip like the real knife!

-Steve
 
I agree! It's a great, practical design that Cold Steel could do well. That would be a switch, Cold Steel ripping off the counterfeiters!



I'll address one of your topics. New thread to follow.



You aren't kidding. It even came with a separate left-handed pocket clip like the real knife!

-Steve

No need it's over with. Continue your thread. Not sure why the quoted text I wanted isn't here ,but yes it's over with .
 
This will be another longish post because the scammers appear to be utterly unhindered these days.

I know they say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery (though I don't think that maxim is used very frequently in the field of corporate copyright law...), but until I started this thread I had no idea just how "flattered" Cold Steel should have been over the creation of its Ti-Lite. Based on the sheer volume of "imitators" out there, it's a VERY popular knife!

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More pure counterfeits to round out the Ti-Lite theme.

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Additional "Cold Steel" knives that Cold Steel never made.

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-Steve
 
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Hmm... Now I want a deep carry clip on my Ti Lite...

I actually have a CS counterfeit. Bought a "Black Sable" at a yard sale. Here's the text on the knife handle:

"Design by
Ray Cutlery
Handcraft in USA"

Hah, yeah right...

One of the most ugly "tacticool" I have ever seen.
 
This will be another longish post because the scammers appear to be utterly unhindered these days.

I know they say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery (though I don't think that maxim is used very frequently in the field of corporate law...), but until I started this thread I had no idea just how "flattered" Cold Steel should have been over the creation of its Ti-Lite. Based on the sheer volume of "imitators" out there, it's a VERY popular knife!

While some of those are clearly Ti-Lite clones, several of them are simply modeled after the basic "switchblade/Italian stiletto" design that's been popular since before Cold Steel even existed.

Like, for example, this Ti-Lite ripoff...from the 1950's:
large_2336_Vintage1950BrazilianHornMadeInItalyPicklockStilettoSwitchbladeKnife.jpg


Here's a "Ti-Lite clone" used in the movie The Warriors, in 1979:
warrior9.jpg
 
I wouldn't call some of the stiletto counterfeit though, since these are all modeled after classic stiletto design. Even the Ti-Lite is modeled after classic design.
Just like you can't say a french chef knife from Hankel is a counterfeit of Vicotinox's chef knife or vice versa.
 
While some of those are clearly Ti-Lite clones, several of them are simply modeled after the basic "switchblade/Italian stiletto" design that's been popular since before Cold Steel even existed.

Nope. I purposely excluded images of any knives that replicate the older switchblades that you reference. With the exception of the one photo that also inadvertently contains the white pearl-handled stiletto, every single image I included depicts only knives that mimic the Ti-Lite.

The distinction? Cold Steel's Ti-Lite was the first--and only, until the rip-offs started--modern folding stiletto design to incorporate the quillons into the blade instead of the bolsters of the handle.

There have always been folders that copy the classic switchblades (a design I've loved since I was a kid)--Kissing Cranes and their ilk go back long before Cold Steel. But I'm not referring to those, and I didn't include photos of any. All of the pictures I displayed are Ti-Lite counterfeits, clones, and derivatives.

-Steve
 
Nope. I purposely excluded images of any knives that replicate the older switchblades that you reference. With the exception of the one photo that also inadvertently contains the white pearl-handled stiletto, every single image I included depicts only knives that mimic the Ti-Lite.

The distinction? Cold Steel's Ti-Lite was the first--and only, until the rip-offs started--modern folding stiletto design to incorporate the quillons into the blade instead of the bolsters of the handle.

There have always been folders that copy the classic switchblades (a design I've loved since I was a kid)--Kissing Cranes and their ilk go back long before Cold Steel. But I'm not referring to those, and I didn't include photos of any. All of the pictures I displayed are Ti-Lite counterfeits, clones, and derivatives.

-Steve

Sorry, that's just nonsense. A lot of them changed the design because making the quillions part of the blade is a way to make them LEGAL in much of the country. With autos being illegal in much of the country, and a modern desire for 1 handed opening, the only way to sell a "modern" switchblade is to have the blade open using thumbstuds or flippers...both of which are depicted in various pictures above. Many of those don't resemble the Ti-Lite at all beyond being "switchlade style" and if you seriously are arguing they're all ripping off Cold Steel, I can just write you off as the clear, hopeless fanboy sheep that you are and move on.
 
I agree, saying those stiletto style knives as Ti Lite ripoffs are akin to saying that Cold Steel, Schrade, KaBar etc are ripping off the design of the Kukri from Nepal's Khukuri House. So no.

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