Critiquing~Is there really a problem?

Difference being you did not receive your feedback by forum replies based on your pictures. You were face to face with them. They got to form their opinios from actually handling your knives. There's a difference and that is where the problem really is that some collectors are failing to recognize. In my opinion.

In this forum, we obviously only comment on what we can see (or what we know based on the description). If there's a super tiny gap that is flelt but not seen, then we will not comment on it, by definition. So here you will get *less* feedback than face to face.

In some rare occasions, you will get comments which might prove wrong when seeing the knife "live". For example, I have sometime said things such as "the guard looks small in relation to the blade", or something of the sort. This is one area where the picture might throw us off, but that's exceptional.
 
First of all - it's more than okay for you to think I am wrong. :)

Perhaps I have just unusually thick skin - but I have posted just about every knife I have ever purchased on the forums and really haven't perceived a problem with the responses.

We already have a knife-discussion forum. It is here and now. I see no need for a knife non-discussion forum.

Roger

Roger,
I don't think that it is so much a matter of you having thick skin as it is a matter of you having an extraordinarily fine eye for and knowledge of the knives that you ( we) like to collect.
You have the ability and the resources to defend your position ( in terms of your likes and dislikes) and it is unlikely that you will question any purchasing decision you have made based on any critique that has been posted on this Forum. I don't think that this is necessarily the case for every one that visits here.
There has certainly been an expression of unhappiness from a number of participant's here ( and non-participant's-both on and off the Forum) as to the direction and tone that some of the posts here have taken.

My suggestion- a sub-forum for those that feel it is necessary to have an opinion on or a critique of every knife that is posted here. I believe that it was Groucho Marx that said "I like a good cigar- but I take it out of my mouth every now and then."

Paul
 
Difference being you did not receive your feedback by forum replies based on your pictures. You were face to face with them. They got to form their opinions from actually handling your knives. There's a difference and that is where the problem really is that some collectors are failing to recognize. In my opinion.
What do you propose as a solution?
 
Difference being you did not receive your feedback by forum replies based on your pictures. You were face to face with them. They got to form their opinions from actually handling your knives. There's a difference and that is where the problem really is that some collectors are failing to recognize. In my opinion.


you are correct. However these were knives I had previously posted pictures of and recieved nothing but " well done " atta boys.

2 points to consider :
1. You cant always get a true feel for a knife by a picture , I have held a knife that I earlier saw a picture of and in person it was way better than the pictured indicated. I have seen it the opposite way as well in handling a knife and later seeing the same knife in a picture and thinking " that picture makes that knife look much better than it looks in person ".

2. Some people are better with words in person that typing them to get their point across.
 
Chuck, I have no quick solution for my said statement. And I'm not sure if you actually agree or if you just want further material for your counterassertion.
 
I find myself in agreement with Tai Goo and others saying something is not quite right. Just would like to lend my support to these knifemakers :thumbup:


Something may not be right and, I think, most-if not all- of those who may have played a part in the problem are aware and attempting to rectify it as has been shown in various threads lately.


That doesn't make purposefully antagonizing others, ie trolling, alright no matter how good a knifemaker one may be.


As an outside observer and regular reader here, I can say that I think that there are some here whose narrow (poor choice of words maybe, what I mean is "specific") focus on collecting has overpowered this forum. However, I've lately seen these same collectors discussing how best to make this forum welcoming to all. That shows awareness and desire, imo.

On the flip side, flippant and insulting comments and digs at the apparent thickness of a person's skin, regardless of which side of the current internet spat a person is on, add nothing to the discussion. Tai Goo is obviously capable of being something of a unique and positive force on this forum but, instead, he's just been blowing a lot of smoke in these threads. If I were Joss, or a lot of the other active participants, I might just put him on ignore too.
 
Tai Goo is obviously capable of being something of a unique and positive force on this forum but, instead, he's just been blowing a lot of smoke in these threads. If I were Joss, or a lot of the other active participants, I might just put him on ignore too.

I did see that Tai Goo was "visibly" upset. Him being upset seemed human considering the conversation he was apart of and I thought he was somewhat blowing steam. I couldn't hold them against him quite honestly as there were responses equally provoking. This is my perception and I'm certainly no expert on such matters so I really can't dissect the conversations any further to make believable assumptions, only to agree or not. I'm a simple soldier.
 
Just to make things clear, I'm rather erratic visitor to these subforums and I'm certainly no grand figure when it comes to collecting high grade collective art knives, I do feel somewhat of an outsider to the scene. My focus is mostly on military use. Nonetheless I have a (my first) $1k custom (well, military themed of course) coming and it is the closest to art knives I've ever come to. I am simply more fond of user, rustic, traditional and in general historically rich "user" knives as far as my collecting needs go.

And for what it's worth, I have forged a knife or two in the past so I think I have an understanding what the very basic principles of knifemaking are and how the smith is involved in this process. But I certainly pretend to have no knowledge of the mastery that the smiths here present on daily basis.

It was one of my first thoughts if many of the collectors had ever made a knife or less forged one. Having been involved with the process of making an edged tool gives you an insight that is not revealed just by collecting. On the other hand I feel conflicted if we understand knives as art. Because can I not appreciate painted art without having been never painted a painting? If so, then painters would be the only ones able and qualified to review such art work and we would just follow their opinions. They'd tell us what was good and worth what.
 
Patriot Dan has mentioned about paintings and we certainly don't have to be a painter to either critique, criticize or enjoy that type of artwork. As I just look around the room in which my computer is stationed, I see things like this: sculptured mask, sandblasted glass painting, silk embroidered "painting", owl carved from was but is a candle, raku pottery, factory wood duck, 7 shades of jade bowel, porcelain vase, oil paintings,lithograph, wood carvings, glass works (vases and sculpture), inuit art carvings, collector plates, leather mask, porcelain sculptures of figures hand done, blown glass art, in addition to many knives.

I know little about how the works were created and that is unimportant frankly as I own the items because either or both my wife and myself loved the item when we purchased it and still do or we likely would either give it away or try to sell it or simply find a depository for it. Mind you this is only one room and there is no room in the house not equally adorned and by no means was the listing complete.

To me this "room" on BF is to discuss custom knives. Whether the knife be posted by a maker or collector should not determine what is said about the knife. The Gallery is more for just posting photos of knives and it is there that photography discussions also take place although perhaps a more refined room for photography might work as well like is available in Knife Network.

It is wonderful to get positive feedback either about a creation or a purchase but comments about a knife and those that either ask questions or offer suggestions or concerns should always be welcomed by the post originator. It is a way all makers and collectors can learn. I'm sure that a makers response as to why he/she did something beyond "that is what the customer wanted" would be beneficial to other makers and particularily collectors.

While some may perceive this forum to be ABS forged blade oriented, personally, I don't think it need be thus. If stock removal knifemakers and collectors would post images, I'm sure they would be looked at in the same fashion and would attract other collectors to this forum. So far this year I have obtained one forged blade that was made into a knife by a stock removal maker, a high end stock removal integral (yet to be picked up), an older stock removal art piece, a new inexpensive stock removal hunter and a integral forged knife (yet to arrive) with prices from $200 to $1600.

In between all this, I love to read the various threads on the BF Custom forum. It is the main location I hang my hat in BF and find lots of good threads started by many of the members both collector and maker. If there was not some of the controversy tossed in among the great knife threads, we might all get bored.

Hopefully, STeven will continue to post as well as Tai, and all the others and that makers and collectors will not be intimidated (some of us will even offer to assist with photography skills) to post photos of knives in various stages and final completion and that both makers and collectors won't be intimidated in how they comment about the knives presented.

Let continue to have fun and make this a forum where all makers and collectors feel welcome to come in, kick back and chat about our passion -- KNIVES!!!
 
Roger,
I don't think that it is so much a matter of you having thick skin as it is a matter of you having an extraordinarily fine eye for and knowledge of the knives that you ( we) like to collect.
You have the ability and the resources to defend your position ( in terms of your likes and dislikes) and it is unlikely that you will question any purchasing decision you have made based on any critique that has been posted on this Forum. I don't think that this is necessarily the case for every one that visits here.
There has certainly been an expression of unhappiness from a number of participant's here ( and non-participant's-both on and off the Forum) as to the direction and tone that some of the posts here have taken.

My suggestion- a sub-forum for those that feel it is necessary to have an opinion on or a critique of every knife that is posted here. I believe that it was Groucho Marx that said "I like a good cigar- but I take it out of my mouth every now and then."

Paul

Not so Paul - as I indicated in an earlier response I HAVE lerned from critiques offered (both on and off-forum) and have modified choices I make accordingly. In short, I have learned from the comments and feedback of my fellow forumites. That doesn't mean I accept and adopt every criticism offered, but if something said does make me re-consider a decision (along the lines of Coop's example), I consider that a positive, not a negative.

Put another way, if a fellow forumite were to do something so egregious as to suggest (borrowing from Buddy's example) that a more contoured handle might offer either aesthetic or functional benefits, and if - here's the key - I found that upon reflection I agreed with him, my reaction wouldn't be "That bastard! He rained on my parade!!" Rather, I would be grateful to that person for the knowledge and insight gained. I an thankful for your comments about my eye for and knowledge of knives - but those weren't acquired (such as they are) in a vacuum - and could not have been acquired in an artificial sunshine-forum where we say nice or say nothing.

I oppose any change to the custom forum because it is a discussion forum that by and large works exceedingly well. While there are some very vocal critics - some of whom have valid points to raise - that which they criticize forms the exception rather than the rule. This is best exemplified whenever examples are requested for the boorish elitist abuse that some claim to be prevalent. Near as I can figure three have been provided: the "deal-breaker thread" - which many makers indicated was actually quite positive, the "Don Cowles thread" which many have commented upon as an example of inappropriate conduct - and Buddy's example of the John White thread, which I maintain is an example of good, candid respectful discussion by maker and collector. I hasten to note that while Buddy decried this as utterly horrible, the maker in question - who has been participating quite a bit on the forums of late (to the great appreciation of many) raised no complaint himself.

To those who claim an epidemic of abuse, all I can say is show me. If it is so prevalent, it should not be hard to find. And while you're at it, count up the total positive non-objectionable threads. I suspect you will find the resulting ratio informative.

To those that want to hive off a separate "critiques only forum" I say this - why not instead have a "no critiques allowed" sub-forum. That way, participants could effectively be restricted to charter members of the mutual admiration society who spread joy and high-fives and are content to do so (and nothing more) day in and day out. A knife posted there could be shielded from discussion - ar at least shielded from anything but praise. If this sounds like your idea of food place to spend time, then lobby for it and maybe the site owner will agree. But there's no need to take away the only knife discussion forum that we have here.

Roger

PS - For all those condemning the abuse of collectors by makers, there has been a maker here in these threads consistently engaged on openly mocking individual collectors, casting sweeping negative generalizations about collectors, imputing improper and selfish motives on the part of collectors - and yet none of this behavior has been the subject of comment by the "let's muzzle those boorish collectors" lobby? Strange, that.
 
You have to ask why, some of these collectors would be opposed to the idea of a separate sub forum for critique?

I smell politics...

I don't think so, Tai. If memory serves, before makers were allowed to post photos of their work, another sub-forum was debated. I didn't see any need to splinter the dialog in this forum then and don't think it's needed now.

By it's very nature this is a dicussion forum so I don't think it's reasonable to expect to show a knife and not get any negative feedback. We all have our preferences and reasons for disliking certain elements and should be able to voice them. It would be nice if it was done politely but there's no way to ensure that either. If anyone gets out of the line the moderators are here to issue warnings or outright ban a troll.

This is a good place to get exposure and share your new aquisitions but you have to expect that any single piece won't satisfy everyone. To limit everyone's comments to just the positive would only be closing your eyes to reality.
 
For Frak's sake, there's no need for a friggin' "how to". All you need is to be polite (e.g., don't hijack threads to address something unrelated) and decency (be considerate in your comments). People who forget that will not change their behavior based on an how to. This is not a professional critiquing congress - this is a place where makers, collectors, users, enthusiasts discuss custom knives.

I agree, Joss. :thumbup:
 
I don't think so, Tai. If memory serves, before makers were allowed to post photos of their work, another sub-forum was debated. I didn't see any need to splinter the dialog in this forum then and don't think it's needed now.

By it's very nature this is a dicussion forum so I don't think it's reasonable to expect to show a knife and not get any negative feedback. We all have our preferences and reasons for disliking certain elements and should be able to voice them. It would be nice if it was done politely but there's no way to ensure that either. If anyone gets out of the line the moderators are here to issue warnings or outright ban a troll.

This is a good place to get exposure and share your new aquisitions but you have to expect that any single piece won't satisfy everyone. To limit everyone's comments to just the positive would only be closing your eyes to reality.

Well said Jose.
 
I agree, Joss. :thumbup:

I don't. It has already been shown that some cannot follow simple guidelines of courtesy of communication. I do agree that it is not a howto that is needed. But a netiquette is needed and a sticky for that might fit fine.
 
For Frak's sake, there's no need for a friggin' "how to". All you need is to be polite (e.g., don't hijack threads to address something unrelated) and decency (be considerate in your comments). People who forget that will not change their behavior based on an how to. This is not a professional critiquing congress - this is a place where makers, collectors, users, enthusiasts discuss custom knives.

Obviously, we do need to spell it out to some Joss. But then to your point, if they didn't learn as they were growing up, not much chance now.
 
By it's very nature this is a dicussion forum so I don't think it's reasonable to expect to show a knife and not get any negative feedback. We all have our preferences and reasons for disliking certain elements and should be able to voice them. It would be nice if it was done politely but there's no way to ensure that either. If anyone gets out of the line the moderators are here to issue warnings or outright ban a troll.

This is a good place to get exposure and share your new aquisitions but you have to expect that any single piece won't satisfy everyone. To limit everyone's comments to just the positive would only be closing your eyes to reality.

Exactamundo. :thumbup:

Roger
 
I hasten to note that while Buddy decried this as utterly horrible...
Roger - If nobody else is going to call you on this outrageous interptation of my comment, then I must. You have just illustrated some of what is objectionable about the type of communication that is degrading the quality of discussion on this forum. You are welcome to quote me and disagree; but please refRain from distorting my comments to support your own agenda.
 
Roger - If nobody else is going to call you on this outrageous interptation of my comment, then I must. You have just illustrated some of what is objectionable about the type of communication that is degrading the quality of discussion on this forum. You are welcome to quote me and disagree; but please refRain from distorting my comments to support your own agenda.

So sorry Buddy,

Instead of suggesting that you had implied that this was something "horrible", I should have said that you suggested it was "the last thing you'd want to see." Of course, if something met the threshold of "the last thing I would want to see" it probably would be something "horrible". But that's me, not you.

I hope this corrects my gross misrepresentation of your post.

Have a nice evening.

Roger
 
Y'all probably don't remember but I have put knives out for Passarounds with the knife being raffled off to the participants at the end. I get a lot of valuable feedback and sales from the passarounds plus it let's me get criticism from people actually handling and using my knife.

That's how I normally prototype my knives, either a passaround here or put it in the hands of local people I trust.
 
Y'all probably don't remember but I have put knives out for Passarounds with the knife being raffled off to the participants at the end. I get a lot of valuable feedback and sales from the passarounds plus it let's me get criticism from people actually handling and using my knife.

That's how I normally prototype my knives, either a passaround here or put it in the hands of local people I trust.

This seems like a pretty good way to get hands-on user feedback. Valuable stuff, that.

Roger
 
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