CS Recon Scout Fails Miserably

[topspeclt]

yep, you got us all pegged to a T! meybe get to know someone personally before making such inaccurate broad sweeping generalizations, eh?

LOL, I didn't say ALL people here are like that! (notice I used the word 'trend'). We have all sorts here, from professionally trained survival experts to Armchair warriors. By reading this thread it seemed as though the Armchair warriors were out in force for some reason.

By this do you mean that Damascus steel would fare better?

The knife I would rely on for batoning more than any other would be this huge S&W Homeland Security honker. It's a huge slab of 440C stainless steel that I don't think the Incredible Hulk could break.

Have you ever tried batoning with that knife?

I HAVE that knife. It's good for chopping because it's front heavy and it's got a lot of heft. However, it's not a full flat grind which is a problem for batonning. Also, the serrations on top of the knife can notch away at the baton and get stuck. Ideally you need a nice flat surface on the spine. Also, that knife must be the -least- sharp knife I have ever seen out of the box! Others have made that comment too. The blade stamp says 440 not 440C although the adverts say 440C. I'm still not sure tbh. Great thickness, good allrounder, great knife overall though! (that's why I got one). I hope it really is 440C and not 440A though.

(that knife brings together Rambo, Strider, Tanto and rolls into one! with a great result imo).

 

[Outdoors Fanatic]

I'm curious about something for those who feel batoning is abuse.

What do you feel this style of knife is designed for, considering the geometry and steel are far from being optimized for pure cutting tasks?

+1

You hit the nail on the head.

 

[just10minreader]

+1

You hit the nail on the head.

He batoned it

 

[brians]

Nutnfancy doesn't just collect his knives! He uses them for real world application.

The problem is that there seems to be a massive trend of fat, couch potato knife enthusiasts who sit in front of their computer all day long in their draws holding a knife in one hand and doing some finger exercises with the mouse scroller whilst thinking they are Rambo and know more than professionally trained survival artists. Most that picked on Nutnfancy clearly know NOTHING at all and I think are actually jealous that someone is out and about using their stuff.

How many actually COLLECT vs, ACTUALLY USE? I'm afraid the answer to that would probably make me never came back to this forum again

Go visit the Wilderness and Survival Skills sub-forum and say that. Most there, myself included, use their blades for a variety of bushcraft, camping, hiking and hunting tasks.

As a note, when most people read sweeping statements from a post, it says more about the poster than the topic. Your age is showing. Who was it that stated:

"The problem with youth, is that it is wasted on the young"

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

There was a very good article written on proper batoning technique that someone over in W&SS linked to...I think it was from the Bark River website? At any rate, it looks to be a case of batoning with the blade at a higher point than the handle, which causes a stress point at the tang shoulder. The angle may have not been radiused enough, but that doesn't mean that a more rounded one wouldn't have broken if batoned that way. It is surprising, however, that it should have happened so quickly.

 

[topspeclt]

Go visit the Wilderness and Survival Skills sub-forum and say that. Most there, myself included, use their blades for a variety of bushcraft, camping, hiking and hunting tasks.

As a note, when most people read sweeping statements from a post, it says more about the poster than the topic. Your age is showing. Who was it that stated:

"The problem with youth, is that it is wasted on the young"

Gosh, I hope I don't grow old because I wouldn't want my reading skills to suffer.
I'll say it again! I said 'trend' and I clarified what I meant in a following post in response to another individual who also made the same mistkae as yourself.

Too much fluoride?

 

[Smash05]

I said...I'll stick to RAT, and Becker...

Since the company that made Carbon V also made the original becker's and the design itself of the knife blades are all comparable it could happen to any of them.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I am not sure it is accurate to state that Camillus made Beckers to the same design as the Recon Scout in question, or even that all Recon Scouts over the years were made to the same design. Were they "all" radiused at the blade/tang junction -- or some -- or none -- or to the same degree? Were the tangs the same width and thickness?

Only close study of the fracture would reveal the extent to which the failure was "sudden." It could have been progressive to the point of sudden failure of the remaining metal.

 

[Karda]

Batonning frozen wood like that, with that size knife was operator error. IMHO.
Use the right tool for the job, i always say...your life may depend on it. A camp axe would've been better suited.
Anybody teaching anyone to go into the wild with just a single tool at their disposal should reexamine their teachings. I wouldnt want someones possible death or injury on my conscience.

 

[KEmSAT-Survival]

You always try to baton a knife through wood that's too thick?

A log that size is a job for a splitting maul, not a CS RS.

Cold ass weather + log that should be split with an axe + batoning a knife= certain death of said knife.

No insult meant by the above or the following, but: I'd figure a Survival Instructor would have known better than to take that big a chance with his knife...

 

[Thomas Linton]

Batonning frozen wood like that, with that size knife was operator error. IMHO.
Use the right tool for the job, i always say...your life may depend on it. A camp axe would've been better suited.
Anybody teaching anyone to go into the wild with just a single tool at their disposal should reexamine their teachings. I wouldnt want someones possible death or injury on my conscience.

Again, you may not have the pefect tool for the job in a wilderness survival situation or routine backpacking. You may have a single tool, most commonly a knife.

In this case the single tool was thicker than many froes - a tool hammered through wood to make most of the shingles that roofed the US in its first 100 years.

Batoning creates less stress than chopping because the blade edge is in contact with the wood and the impact is against the sprine rather than the edne.

It is neither here nor there than world-renown experts teach batoning with far lighter knives. Many HERE have used the technique successfully. I was taught how to do so in survival training over forty years ago.

You always try to baton a knife through wood that's too thick?

Please look at the picture and see what he was trying to do. He was not trying to split the round down the center. The wood was apx 1" thick -- the wood he was trying to slice off the larger piece, and the width of the piece was less than the length of the blade.

Few carry a splitting maul when backpacking.

If this technique is "certain death," why do we hear one knife broken while batoning story every 3-5 years? The technique has been widely taught for generations.

No insult meant by the above or the following, but: I'd figure a Survival Instructor would have known better than to take that big a chance with his knife...

Life is not without risk, and there is more risk of death from lightning than a sound knife, properly used, breaking while batoning. In Europe, the most popular knife for batoning is a MORA.

Still, I baton only when neccesary or to teach the technique. I did it more for practice sake shortly after I was taught.

 

[Karda]

I've been teaching winter survival skills to a young mens group in our church where I'm a youth leader. Currently we're doing firemaking skills with flint and steel; the real kind like when it's snowy outside, windy, and about 10 degrees out.

Anyone teaching these skills should properly think them out before teaching classes. they should stress preparedness and common sense and not advocate being out in this type of weather with just basics(one knife)....then teach more classes on what to do if you should accidentally find yourself in an absolute "survival" situation. If you are aware enough to carry flint and steel, you should also be carrying more than just one basic knife.

Again, you may not have the pefect tool for the job in a wilderness survival situation or routine backpacking. You may have a single tool, most commonly a knife.

Maybe so, but then you are taking risk's with your well being in doing so, the first rule that should be taught in survival training is to "be prepared", single tool use should NOT be advocated.

In this case the single tool was thicker than many froes - a tool hammered through wood to make most of the shingles that roofed the US in its first 100 years.

Shingles are far thinner than what he was trying to baton thru,and usually unfrozen when made.

Please look at the picture and see what he was trying to do. He was not trying to split the round down the center. The wood was apx 1" thick -- the wood he was trying to slice off the larger piece, and the width of the piece was less than the length of the blade.

Few carry a splitting maul when backpacking.

He should've tried to baton a smaller piece off the chunk or used a more suitable tool for the job....Noone mentioned splitting maul here. A good hatchet or camp axe would suffice. Again suvival is about being prepared and using the best tool you have for the job....and using common sense.

If this technique is "certain death," why do we hear one knife broken while batoning story every 3-5 years? The technique has been widely taught for generations.

I think those calculations are in error. there has been several this past year alone, just on this site.

Life is not without risk, and there is more risk of death from lightning than a sound knife, properly used, breaking while batoning. In Europe, the most popular knife for batoning is a MORA.

No matter the knife brand, the boldened and underlined part is the most important.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Anyone teaching these skills should properly think them out before teaching classes. they should stress preparedness and common sense and not advocate being out in this type of weather with just basics(one knife)....then teach more classes on what to do if you should accidentally find yourself in an absolute "survival" situation. If you are aware enough to carry flint and steel, you should also be carrying more than just one basic knife.

OK, I don't expect you to go along with Ray, Mors, or Lofty. Authority ought to yield to reason and facts. But look at it this way, what if all a person has is a single, massively thick (5/16") slab of steel like the Recon Scout. What if the only dry wood is inside a piece of wood? What if its below freezing and they really need a fire? Your advice, based on your expertise, would be?

Maybe so, but then you are taking risk's with your well being in doing so, the first rule that should be taught in survival training is to "be prepared", single tool use should NOT be advocated.

Who's advocating batoning if a better method is available? He was teaching what to do in a given situation.

Shingles are far thinner than what he was trying to baton thru,and usually unfrozen when made

Shingles are split off a round. I have split shingles off rounds far larger than the one in question.

He should've tried to baton a smaller piece off the chunk or used a more suitable tool for the job....Noone mentioned splitting maul here. A good hatchet or camp axe would suffice. Again suvival is about being prepared and using the best tool you have for the job....and using common sense.

Again, you have apparently not looked at the picture. He WAS splitting a small slab off the larger piece.

A splitting maul is highly unlikely to be available in a wilderness survival situation. They tend to happen far from civilization and when folks have limited tools available. In the city or suburbs, sure. But should we not teach for the more typical circumstances?

I think those calculations are in error. there has been several this past year alone, just on this site.

Perhaps. Links? Were they using correct technique?

No matter the knife brand, the boldened and underlined part is the most important.

And used properly, a stout knife can baton wood. Brand is not the issue. Design and materials are relevant. The same MGS who taught me how to baton also showed how easy it was to snap a Mark II when batoning (very square angle at blade/tang junction) with incorrect technique. So what's the objection to teaching the correct technique?

And have you ever tried this technique?

 

[Confederate]

Have you ever tried batoning with that knife? I HAVE that knife. It's good for chopping because it's front heavy and it's got a lot of heft. However, it's not a full flat grind which is a problem for batoning. Also, the serrations on top of the knife can notch away at the baton and get stuck. Ideally you need a nice flat surface on the spine. Also, that knife must be the -least- sharp knife I have ever seen out of the box! Others have made that comment too. The blade stamp says 440 not 440C although the adverts say 440C. I'm still not sure tbh. Great thickness, good allrounder, great knife overall though! (that's why I got one). I hope it really is 440C and not 440A though.

No, admittedly I haven't. When I was a Boy Scout years ago, we batoned by placing the blade into a cut, then using another piece of wood to drive the top of the knife into the wood; then we'd use the piece of wood to try to leverage the crack, and then chip off the part we were going for. We primarily used hatchets.

I suspect that if you could fit the blade of the HS into the opening, the blade would be large enough to push the wood apart. Suffice it to say that it's just a huge bladed knife that can be used for heavy prying (if necessary).

Some of the new models (the kind without serrations on top) are 440A. Your knife, however, should be 440C. My edge also was not very sharp, but it sharpened up very, very well using the diamond pad it came with (plus a few swipes with my Sharpmaker). I have another cameo coated S&W knife and blade and that blade is 440C, too. I got the blade razor sharp and it held the edge much longer than I thought. (It also had a frame lock.) Still, I carry my knives that look better, though sometimes the Smith finds its way into my pocket.

 

[Jos]

Nutnfancy doesn't just collect his knives! He uses them for real world application.

The problem is that there seems to be a massive trend of fat, couch potato knife enthusiasts who sit in front of their computer all day long in their draws holding a knife in one hand and doing some finger exercises with the mouse scroller whilst thinking they are Rambo and know more than professionally trained survival artists. Most that picked on Nutnfancy clearly know NOTHING at all and I think are actually jealous that someone is out and about using their stuff.

How many actually COLLECT vs, ACTUALLY USE? I'm afraid the answer to that would probably make me never came back to this forum again

A squad of highly trained mall-ninja's armed to the teeth and with multiple trauma plates taped to their backs will be sent to terminate you. You know too much!











Kind regards,

Jos

 

[topspeclt]

The problem is that there seems to be a massive trend of fat, couch potato knife enthusiasts who sit in front of their computer all day long in their draws holding a knife in one hand and doing some finger exercises with the mouse scroller whilst thinking they are Rambo and know more than professionally trained survival artists. Most that picked on Nutnfancy clearly know NOTHING at all and I think are actually jealous that someone is out and about using their stuff.

How many actually COLLECT vs, ACTUALLY USE? I'm afraid the answer to that would probably make me never came back to this forum again

LOL.

A picture tells a thousand words!

Re: Mall ninjas:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/philbooth/How_To_Be_A_Ninja.jpg

I've got turd in my pants already...

 

[cabala]

First off I'm a Cold Steel fan... at least I have been. Good knives, designs, and fair prices and I've probably sold a few with my advocacy. I've been teaching winter survival skills to a young mens group in our church where I'm a youth leader. Currently we're doing firemaking skills with flint and steel; the real kind like when it's snowy outside, windy, and about 10 degrees out. I find few people can make a fire in such conditions and it takes some teaching and practice to build the skill and get confidence in doing it. And that's what we're doing.

Along with practice, as I've told the boys, you need a good survival knife. One that can hack wood and split logs under hard use. It's an essential piece of gear in the back country: not too heavy to be left behind but sturdy enough to do the job. That's where the CS Recon Scout comes in.

Most of the boys, at my recommendation, have purchased their own survival knife to be used in these exercises. My recommendations including Becker BK7s & 9s, CS Recon Scout, Kabar Next Gen, and SOG SEAL 2000; all good knives for their money. Or so I thought. A few bought the Recon Scout including another leader. It was this other leader's Recon Scout you see broken in half below.

The conditions on this winter campout were about 5 degrees and clear on this morning when we started to split some more wood. The other leader was just started to hammer the RS through the pictured log when I remarked what a good blade it was and how he was probably going to hand it down to his kids later on. Nice timing. No sooner had the words left my mouth when the blade literally shattered! We were in shock. The knife wasn't even taking a big split of that log either. The leader is currently getting it replaced under warranty as it was only a month old.

This is a very serious failure in my opinion. Splitting wood was mandatory to find the dry stuff in the snow. This was a no-kidding backpacking winter trip where a fire wasn't just nice to have it was almost mandatory. From preventing frost bite to drying clothes to cooking the fire was a necessity. If we'd been in another couple miles up the mountain and had no other backup blades (we had several) the loss of this Recon Scout could have been very serious indeed.

I don't know what CS makes the Carbon 5 steel out of but my confidence in their blades has taken a serious hit. Maybe they should put a warning on their C5 blades not to use them below 15 degrees. Failure of this sort is inexcusable no matter the cold or what not. A survival knife should take any condition you find yourself in... if it can't you should pitch it.

I had one and was tryed to batoning smaller logs, actually one hit usually was enough for splitting in half. Just don't understand how is piece of blade stood in guard. This means that's blade cracked on four places. It has to be very strong force.

 

[mhawg]

I have a CS Recon Scout, sort of anyway. I lent it to a good friend 10 years ago and he still has it and uses it. He hunts deer and hogs in the swamp and fishes of course. Every time I get to see it it is close at hand and dirty from use. He had my Master Hunter and the Recon Tanto for a while but I got those back, he was stuck on the Scout. There are millions (?) of CS knifes out there still taking hard use so I won't let this one failure sour my feelings on Cold Steel knifes. Probably should have had a Busse anyway!! (I couldn't help it!!)

 

[ajpalda]

I'm not seeing any piece of the blade stuck in the guard. The inside of the guard isnt finished, so it kinda looks grey in there instead of black, but its just the angle and the inside of the guard.

 

[cabala]

I'm not seeing any piece of the blade stuck in the guard. The inside of the guard isnt finished, so it kinda looks grey in there instead of black, but its just the angle and the inside of the guard.

Yes, sorry I didn't look well. Anyway, force was very strong and knife was cracked on his weak point, on narrow torn. Maybe they batoned knife on that spot?