Disgusting - anthrax delivery thru Reno Post Office

I don't think any of us condone torture but once in awhile when folks behave badly enough we are tempted. Spitting it out helps sometimes.

Noble post, Rust, and I wish I were a good enough Buddhist or Christian or anything for that matter to love the terrorsts, wish them well, and invite them home for dinner -- but I'm not. I wonder if you would be able to feel the same had your father, mother, wife and kids had been killed in the WTC?
 
Walosi,

I agree that the conflict in Afghanistan is not entirely about revenge, but I maintain that it is a major diplomatic blunder which will result in human suffering on a massive scale.

I think that people should live through torture in their own minds before advocating the torture of others. Torture is, to my way of thinking, a crime against Life itself. A slap in God's face, as it were. The advocacy of torture is, to me, a supreme victory of wrong over right. And this is what disturbs me so right now - it's too damned late to be disturbed about the prospect of war. Although I still abhor the apparent attitude that the people of the Middle East are somehow sub-human, and should be "thinned out".

As to Khukuris being blessed with blood, you're correct. However, you neglect to bring up the spirit in which this is done. The animal to be sacrificed is wished well - not suffering. The additional blood sacrifice is also made in a benevolent spirit, and the blood is freely given:

http://www.tx3.net/~howardw/Khukuris/Ceremony.htm

I feel that this is significantly different from, say, a blade that is blessed to take life and bring its owner victory on the field of battle.
 
Bill,

Please don't mistake me. I have no love for terrorists, or anyone that advocates wrongdoing. But I apply that unilaterally.

I think that it is the responsibility of a civilized people to approach atrocity with civilized justice, and not with further atrocity.
 
Rust -

One of the values that sustains our way of life is the inclusion of all faiths and philosophies. Among just my "People" are the Dinee belief that man has only one life, and the only thing left at his death is his Chindi - the evil that lived in his body, which is dissipated by the winds. A Chiriqaua belief, IIRC, held that a man's soul was strengthened by the pain and fear he inflicted on his enemy before he killed him. The Lakota rated bravery above anything else in battle, hence the practice of riding up to an enemy, striking him with a "coup stick", and leaving him unharmed (next contact was usually with a 'hawk or a lance, if he stayed around for the next round). None of our "European" culture has given any of the native cultures much credit (just savages, y'know) and have even taken their children to "christian" schools where they were even forbidden to speak their own language. Let alone, we were more peaceful than any European culture - there were the usual "horse raids", and tribal feuds, but even then, they were not as vitriolic as what was visited on us in the name of "civilization".Now they preach peace at any cost. Sorry - I just can't buy it. The blessings of the blades is for the use of their owners. The apology to the animals is the same that we used to give when we traded their life for our sustenance. I think we primitives may uderstand each other just a little more than you.

Randy -

Their acts deserve punishment. Eradication simply is not enough.
 
I think if you check back a few weeks you'll find this forum to have some of the most tolerant and benevolent folk who have gone out of their way to remain evenhanded. People who try very hard to understand and be understood.

But you will find that we are also honest. That is what a pressure relief valve does for the boiler of a steam locomotive, and what also has happened here.

A local legend around here has our ex-school superintendent ( back when he was elementary principal ) overheard standing all 6'5" tall, with his red hair and beet-purple face looming over two second graders ( sitting in appropriately small sized chairs in his office ) sent there for fighting on the playground and asking them:

"Now do I have to get my paddle or can the two of you shake hands and apologize?"

They shook hands and apologized really really fast.

We've been tolerant and fair minded. We've been equitable. That has failed.

The next step is putting the miscreants on notice that our patience is at an end and if their behavior does not reform life is about to become extremely unpleasant for them.

It's either you play by the rules or we don't play by the rules either. Plain and simple. Straighten up or it's payback time with interest.

What Yvsa and others are saying is the shriek of the pressure relief valve. They don't want to play without a set of rules, but if it should come to pass they must, it is on the heads of those who began the provocation.
 
Walosi,

You may be right, Its just hard for me to condone torture. Like Uncle Bill said to Rust I may think about the situation differntly if I had lost someone to one of the attacks.

This is really a weird time in our history. Im only 29 years and dont know what it was like after Pearl Harbor, but I really believe we are just now starting to see that we are vulnerable. I cant imagine what it would feel like living in Isreal. THIS SUCKS!!!!
 
Originally posted by Randy Rawson
I dont agree with Rust and the give peace a chance crowd. But as far as the tying people in trees and cutting off eye lids,feeding them rotten pork etc.
Who are you going to find to do all that?
Its one thing to write that and another to do it.
It would take someone with no soul.
As mad as everyone is right now emotions are running high but I hope no one here is capable of such things. Just kill them. no torture no maiming just get rid of them

Randy
Click to expand...

I can do it!!!!
And who are you to say that I have no soul that I could do such a thing?
You don't know and have no knowledge of whom you speak so to.......
The things that I would do and/or could do were taught to my people by the Europeans of the past who came to this peaceful country and taught us real hate.
But with that hate comes a compassion that I don't think many
grasp.
A compassion that hates the act that's being done but know that it's neccesary to do it to save further innocent people.
The Europeans never did/have figure it out as a whole and yet some have discovered the true warrior's path.
There are many of that "some" who frequent this forum.
There are few true warriors that can do what's needed, leave it on the fields of war, then come home and wipe a child's tears ever so carefully, give the child comfort, and bring a smile to the child's face.
And that's something the European never could take away from us.
We gave as we were taught and yet we're the so called savages who did it without the hate the Europeans visited upon us, who kept them alive the first winters they were in this country.
I could/would do such a thing although I would take no pleasure from it.
I can also leave it on the field of war and pray that it never need be done again.
And especially by the young warriors coming behind as no man should have to learn to do such things.
As Walosi has said sorta, "We were/are all
savages" meaning the ndn people here.
The true warrior does what is necessary to insure that such visitations never come again to those who are innocent as what happened on 9-11 sent by the one of the few subhumans that would deserve this kind of treatment.
I believe fully that if such a thing was done and televised to the people who believe war is made by killing the innocent that it wouldn't take over twice to see that it never happened again.
As Uncle Bill said the other day and not the first to say it...
"War is hell and this is war!!!!"
And I don't believe I am alone among the ones that frequent this forum that could do such a thing.

Perhaps Rust is right in what he says, but I am one who is not ready "to approach atrocity with civilized justice, and not with further atrocity."
I firmly believe that the effort must be made on both sides.
 
Wal, excellently said but please don't get me preaching on the atrocities, injustice, inhuman, inhumane and terrorist acts visited upon our native brothers.

Rusty, thanks for your usual intelligent, calm, collected analysis.

Yvsa, I understand your position because I took the time to try to find my roots but there are not many here who will understand it. And, I don't think there is any way that I can explain it with any degree of success.

Rust, I admire your taking to the high road and I'll freely admit my failure as a good Buddhist because I cannot do better but I see it plain and simple. 20 hate filled fanatics backed by thousands more just like them killed 6,000 Americans, created a huge expense for which we all must pay, and made little kids afraid to go to Disneyland. To me, as a human and an American this is unacceptable.

I don't like the terrorstis and I don't like what they did. There are more just like these who commited this worst of sins waiting and more than willing to do the same thing or worse again. I do not want this to happen and the best way I know to avoid this is to get rid of those willing to perpetrate such acts again. If there is a more "civilized" solution then I don't know what it is. It is not a perfect world.
 
On the Anthrax subject, my mother works for American Family Insurance Company and they had to evacuate the whole building yesterday because of an envelope that was found containing the white powdery substance. Fortunately after the substance was analyzed, it was found to be non-toxic. I was thankful that this was not something that caused anyone to die or to be in a hospital as a result of it.

I hope what I'm about to say is not misconstrued as being offensive or as being sympathetic to terrorists. I am in no way sympathetic to their cause or to the way in which they are using these kinds of acts as a way to resolve their problems. They are scum absolutely, but let's not forget that if we consider the idea of torture, then we eventually lower ourselves to that level because eventually we ourselves will come to a point where we would start to suspect anyone who might think differently. Also, another thing to consider is the Gorkhas were not considered to be the fiercest warriors or fighters because they used torture or mutilation as ways to inspire fear in their enemies. From all accounts that I have read of them, they never used torture and prisoners under them were treated well and honorably. They were considered as the fiercest and among the most courageous because in the heat of battle, they always proved their mettle and would always come out victorious no matter what the odds or the cost to was to their lives. If anything, I think we should hold them as examples if we are to fight the terrorists and do our part to ensure that life in our country remains the same and we do not abandon our freedoms because of terror or fear of terror.

Arvind
 
YVSA

I meant no offense, And the no soul comment was not very well thought out.
I worked in a Hospital a while ago and they brought in a street person that had been cut up and tortured. Ive seen some bad things but this was indescribable, I just cant imagine anyone doing that to another person. I understand this situation is differnt and these people are deserving but Its bad nasty buisness . At least we agree on the part about it sucking. By the way Im not a full blooded evil European my grandmother was a Seminole.

Randy
 
The most important thing to be remembered here is that we are all brothers AND Americans. When one is threatened we are all threatened. No man is an island and when one is killed a part of us who are left is also killed.

I do not condone torture nor could I perform it but I fully understand Yvsa's position regarding this matter and should he ever do it the act from his point of view would not be an act of evil but one of goodness. I realize there are few here who will understand this but there are few here who know the man as I do.

But I will freely admit that if Yangdu died at the hands of a terrorist or anybody else for that matter and I had the opportunity to seek vengeance against the person who killed her I might readily change my views regarding torture.

I say that I am a Buddhist but I never say that I am a good one.
 
In the beginning...there was September 11.

Then the Florida situation,
Then the Malaysia to Reno item
Now the NBC thing in New York...

The Malaysian incident has high probability of Bin Laden involvement.
The Florida situation - dunno, haven't heard any updates on this
The New York NBC item - same as Florida.

Would have to say that the hunt for terrorists needs to be opened up to cover other terrorist groups - Red Brigade, IRA, ETA, FLQ, Shining Path, Libya, Medellin Drug Cartel, Mafia, Russian Mafiya, Hell's Angels, and any other groups not mentioned.

What to do with them? Mete out the punishment they deserve without delay and grandstanding. As for the pacifists...:barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :mad: :mad:

Harry

"Revenge is a dish best served cold..."
 
Randy I don't lump all Europeans in the same file as I would have a lot fewer friends than I do.:)

Arvind brings up that the Ghorkas never tortured anyone. I read or was told a story, can't remember which, where torture, actually terrorism was visited upon at least one German barracks.
I'm not going to tell the story as I read or heard it because it's too much for this forum, but I will say that when the Ghorkas left the barracks every 5th german had his head setting upon his chest to greet the other soldiers when they woke up.
This literally terrorized the germans and to me it would also be a form of torture as if I happened to be one of those germans I wouldn't sleep in the barracks anymore if I happened to be one of them that was left alive.

And since I can't recall where I heard it or read it there is no way to confirm the story, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did actually happen. The Ghorkas follow orders no matter what they may be although they did balk at jumping out of airplanes until they were told they would have parachutes.:)

Not all things in war are mentioned to the ones that weren't there to see it........
Bad stuff happened on both sides!!!!
 
That's exactly what should happen.
It's going to be interesting to see what's done about the IRA and other organizations that promote terrorism.
 
You make a good point Yvsa, however, I respectfully beg to differ in that would beheading an enemy be considered torture considering that that your enemy died instantly? In Moghal times, the torture typically used to convert Sikhs to Islam was either to cut them apart joint by joint or by cutting their babies apart and forcing Sikh women to wear the bones of their babies as grotesque necklaces.

Arvind
 
Btw, Harry, I would agree with you on that, but would also add people like the ones involved in the backlash to the WTC attacks who killed Sikhs, Arabs, Pakistanis all because they looked like either Taliban or like Arabs.

Arvind
 
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