Gaucho knives and cuchillos criollos of South America

The term almost certainly is a derivative of the old colloquial Latin word falcionem, which refers to cutting with a single edge blade. There are many similar names in most languages with Latin roots - falchion, fauchon, faca, facao, finka etc....
Not quite. Neither Spanish nor Portuguese experienced any pronunciation changes leading to the l sound being lost between the a and c sounds -- or between any consonant and any velar sound, for that matter. For example, Lat. falco turned into halcón in Spanish and falcão in Portuguese. Note that both words show pronounciation and spelling differences with respect to their Latin source, but in both the sequence a-l-c (phonologically represented as /alk/) remains intact. Moreover, as the former example shows, Spanish, unlike most Romance languages, experienced a change whereby the initial f sound of such words became silent -- something that is graphically represented by the letter h. Thus, if facón came from Lat. falciōnem, not only would we expect it to still feature the l, but we'd also expect it to have lost the f, as halcón did. The etymology offered by the Royal Spanish Academy (Andalusi Arabic fárẖa) is far more likely.
 
Last edited:
Not quite. Neither Spanish nor Portuguese experienced any pronunciation changes leading to the l sound being lost between the a and c sounds -- or between any consonant and any velar sound, for that matter. For example, Lat. falco turned into halcón in Spanish and falcão in Portuguese. Note that both words show pronounciation and spelling differences with respect to their Latin source, but in both the sequence a-l-c (phonologically represented as /alk/) remains intact. Moreover, as the former example shows, Spanish, unlike most Romance languages, experienced a change whereby the initial f sound of such words became silent -- something that is graphically represented by the letter h. Thus, if facón came from Lat. falciōnem, not only would we expect it to still feature the l, but we'd also expect it to have lost the f, as halcón did. The etymology offered by the Royal Spanish Academy (Andalusi Arabic fárẖa) is far more likely.
LOL....A lot of assumptions made there.....you do realize that the root for all these different words are permutations of the same word from Roman Latin, right? That language existed for centuries before the Analusian Arabic dialect came into use. Words and pronunciations have a way of changing over the years due to non-native speakers misspelling or mispronouncing them or not hearing the word correctly, as has been already pointed out with the words facon and facao. I find it hard to believe that the word facon just happened to come into use after the Spanish gauchos starting encountering the Portuguese...
Another thing you aren't taking into account is that Spanish and Portuguese dialects spoken South American at the time are not the same as the European languages, so what the European scholars say doesn't mean all that much....If it was at all like some of the current Spanish dialects that have developed in the Western Hemisphere the is a good chance that a person that came from Spain would have a hard time understanding the dialects spoken in some parts of South America.
 
Much of this conversation is over my head. I only now just realized that Argentines pronounce the word criollo as kryoh-shoh, not kryoh-yoh. The root word of faca, facao, and facon? Fuggedaboutit.
War of the linguists! Interesting, though. English is the only language I speak fluently, but I am of Spanish and Portuguese descent, and can understand 95% of the Tex-Mex spoken here in south Texas. I can only understand maybe 10% of the Cuban I occasionally hear.
 
LOL....A lot of assumptions made there.....you do realize that the root for all these different words are permutations of the same word from Roman Latin, right? That language existed for centuries before the Analusian Arabic dialect came into use. Words and pronunciations have a way of changing over the years due to non-native speakers misspelling or mispronouncing them or not hearing the word correctly, as has been already pointed out with the words facon and facao. I find it hard to believe that the word facon just happened to come into use after the Spanish gauchos starting encountering the Portuguese...
Another thing you aren't taking into account is that Spanish and Portuguese dialects spoken South American at the time are not the same as the European languages, so what the European scholars say doesn't mean all that much....If it was at all like some of the current Spanish dialects that have developed in the Western Hemisphere the is a good chance that a person that came from Spain would have a hard time understanding the dialects spoken in some parts of South America.
There are several mistakes here, but also a few correct remarks, so I'll try to break it down. By the way, though I don't wish to pull an "argument from authority," I should point out that I have a Ph.D. in linguistics and did my dissertation, precisely, on Old Spanish. This is just to say: I kinda know what I'm talking about.

1. Yes, there are several assumptions in my remarks, reflecting centuries of scholarship in Romance linguistics and philology. For example, the f > h has been shown to have happened pretty much across the board from Latin to Spanish in pre-voiced positions (i.e., all positions before a sound that would involve vibration of the vocal cords, as is always the case with vowels; e.g., halcón, herrero, hilo, etc.). There are very few exceptions, corresponding to "cultisms" (i.e., Latin words that re-entered the Spanish lexicon via borrowing, after the relevant phonetic changes took place; e.g., fin). And there is absolutely no evidence that faca is a "cultism"; for one, if it were, we'd expect it to retain more of the phonetic characteristics of its Latin source, such as the l sound. You can read more about this here, or in any textbook dealing at some length with the historical development of Spanish (e.g., Hualde et al.'s Introducción a la lingüística hispánica).

2. Correct, the Spanish language existed before Andalusi Arabic was a thing. However, the Muslim occupation of the Iberian Peninsula radically reshaped both the Spanish and Portuguese (and also Galician) lexicon. Moreover, there exist absolutely no documented examples of faca or facón in early Old Spanish (leaving aside variants of the third person singular conjugation of the verb façer, which one sometimes finds with a c instead of g), suggesting that the word developed after the Muslim invasion.

3. You're also correct that it's not at all clear that facón "just happened to come into use after the Spanish gauchos starting encountering the Portuguese." I said exactly that in post #899: "It's not at all obvious to me that the term was simply a phonetic adaptation of Port. facão as used by Portuguese-speaking gauchos." Not sure exactly who you're arguing with here.

4. I did take into account the differences between Latin American and European Spanish. However, these differences do absolutely nothing for your argument. The phonetic changes that took place in the transition from Latin into Spanish are also attested in Latin American varieties -- how could they not, given that Spanish came to the Americas centuries later? -- so the same constraints apply. Moreover, I already showed that the word faca 'knife' not only predates the gauchos, but in fact was already in use in Spain (as shown by Covarrubias's dictionary) before it was first attested in the Americas.

5. The remark that "European scholars say doesn't mean all that much," just because European and Latin American Spanish are not identical, is both incorrect and irrelevant. It's incorrect because, as I already pointed out, the bulk of the phonetic changes that came to define Spanish happened before the importation of Spanish into the Americas, and, since the 19th century, there have been countless European scholars doing field linguistic and philological research in this continent. And it's irrelevant because several of the points I'm making here have been made by Latin American scholars too. What matters is not a scholar's country of origin, but his data.

6. If you don't like the Andalusi Arabic hypothesis, in fact you're not alone. Joan Coromines, for example, in his monumental Diccionario crítico etimológico de la lengua castellana, openly challenges this hypothesis, and with good arguments. According to him, it's more likely that the word came about as a variant of faca 'small horse' (which in turn is a variant of jaca) by way of metaphorical extension. And there are other hypotheses entertained by a number of scholars -- none of which, however, claims the word to have derived from Lat. falciōnem, for which there isn't a shred of evidence (while there's plenty of evidence to the contrary, in particular in the phonetic evolution of Latin roots in the development Spanish).

Cheers.
 
2. Correct, the Spanish language existed before Andalusi Arabic was a thing. However, the Muslim occupation of the Iberian Peninsula radically reshaped both the Spanish and Portuguese (and also Galician) lexicon. Moreover, there exist absolutely no documented examples of faca or facón in early Old Spanish (leaving aside variants of the third person singular conjugation of the verb façer, which one sometimes finds with a c instead of g), suggesting that the word developed after the Muslim invasion.
You're assuming its a Spanish word.....There were other cultures that interacted with the Iberian peoples that were not Muslim, Celts and Romans for instance.... Facon is a word apparently developed in or around the Portuguese controlled parts of South America, so you won't find it in any Spanish history books. Faca is the general word for large knife. Seems to me that it is not a coincidence that there are many similar words in other languages that were influenced by both the Celt people and the Romans.
3. You're also correct that it's not at all clear that facón "just happened to come into use after the Spanish gauchos starting encountering the Portuguese." I said exactly that in post #899: "It's not at all obvious to me that the term was simply a phonetic adaptation of Port. facão as used by Portuguese-speaking gauchos." Not sure exactly who you're arguing with here
4. I did take into account the differences between Latin American and European Spanish. However, these differences do absolutely nothing for your argument. The phonetic changes that took place in the transition from Latin into Spanish are also attested in Latin American varieties -- how could they not, given that Spanish came to the Americas centuries later? -- so the same constraints apply. Moreover, I already showed that the word faca 'knife' not only predates the gauchos, but in fact was already in use in Spain (as shown by Covarrubias's dictionary) before it was first attested in the Americas.
The point here is again, it can't be a coincidence that the word came in to use when the Portuguese and the Spanish speaking people of Argentina started encountering each other. You seem to be assuming that they spoke some form of proper Spanish also. The native people at the time probably were in addition to the mandatory Spanish also using Quechua or something similar, which has a different set of phonetics, so the pronunciation might have been problematic resulting in corrupting the Portuguese facao to facon.
 
You're assuming its a Spanish word.....There were other cultures that interacted with the Iberian peoples that were not Muslim, Celts and Romans for instance.... Facon is a word apparently developed in or around the Portuguese controlled parts of South America, so you won't find it in any Spanish history books. Faca is the general word for large knife. Seems to me that it is not a coincidence that there are many similar words in other languages that were influenced by both the Celt people and the Romans.
The point here is again, it can't be a coincidence that the word came in to use when the Portuguese and the Spanish speaking people of Argentina started encountering each other. You seem to be assuming that they spoke some form of proper Spanish also. The native people at the time probably were in addition to the mandatory Spanish also using Quechua or something similar, which has a different set of phonetics, so the pronunciation might have been problematic resulting in corrupting the Portuguese facao to facon.
No, I'm not assuming faca to have any specific origin. It's you the one who is committing to a particular etymology (Lat. falciōnem). On the other had, if the word had come from any of the pre-Roman languages (e.g., Iberian and Basque) spoken in the Peninsula, it would make zero sense for it to have a Latin origin as you're suggesting. The point about the Romans being there, as if we could draw a sharp distinction between Romans and "Spaniards" (which weren't a thing back when faca was first documented), makes no sense either. The population of the Peninsula back then was pretty much a mix of Romans, natives, and Muslims, all of whom engaged in interbreeding. And all the same: the word would've undergone the same changes as the other Latin-derived words of that class. As for the word supposedly not being found in "Spanish history books," it is. With the meaning 'knife,' it's amply described in pre 18th-century (European) Spanish dictionaries, and it was already directly attested in (late) Medieval Spanish texts (regardless of whether or not the origin is Portuguese). In other words, the term did not originate in South America. I don't get how you're struggling so much to grasp this simple, well-documented fact. Now, if it's the word facón we're talking about, things are less certain. The latter word may well have come from South American Portuguese; but then again, as I pointed out previously, noun formation with the augmentative suffix -ón has been productive in Spanish for centuries, so even this hypothesis is not so easy to ascertain.

Anyways, I already gave you the facts and the relevant competing hypotheses. Now it's up to you to catch up or keep arguing. As far as I'm concerned, I'll move on to what this thread is mainly about: sharing and discussing interesting knives (and their scabbards/sheaths). Here are some interesting verijero scabbard hooks from my humble collection:

hRIqYAP.jpeg
 
I love my cuchillo criollo
Beautiful criollo you got Vince ! 😍
I love the wavy grain pattern in the Urunday wood :thumbsup:
It looks very ergonomically in your hand and confortable to hold.

I can only understand maybe 10% of the Cuban I occasionally hear.
Lol, my Cuban better half complains at times that I don't pay attention when she is talking to me.
Next time I'll tell her is because I only understand 10 % of what she is saying to me :thumbsup: :D

Argentines pronounce the word criollo as kryoh-shoh, not kryoh-yoh
Yeap :thumbsup::cool: I say kryoh-shoh and my Cuban better half says kryoh-yoh 😊 ... but we do get along great regardless lol ... is going to be 28 years of marriage and would do it all over again a 1000 times 😍

Human language is indeed fascinating !
I recently became aware that my kids generation, generation Z is already teasing the Millennials for not getting the nuance and the different word meanings that gen Z has developed in their vocabulary.... which means that I, being gen X with English as a second language, am then hopelessly lost in trying to understand my kids :)

I'd like to share a couple of paintings by renowned Argentine artist Rodolfo Ramos whose specialty was his incredibly accurate portrayals of the life and culture surrounding the gaucho and its traditions.

Mr Ramos passed away earlier this year at the age of 86 years old.
He dedicated his entire life to studying the gaucho and his way of life and then bringing with astonishing accuracy those details to the canvas.

Mr Rodolfo Ramos
lTADxSm.jpg


Painting: "El alma del viejo Santos"

From what I've been able to find out, this painting is about the legendary gaucho Santos Vega of whom actually very little factual information is known except for the myth and tales surrounding his character that have been immortalized in poems, writing and traditions about the gauchos.

Legend has it that he was the best "Payador" and lost a "Payada" (singing duel in poetic form ) with the Devil himself at which point he died on the spot by an "Ombu" tree.
rnpyAGO.jpg


This painting is titled: "Una mañana de Agosto" ( "One August morning" ).
QLDB6CS.jpg
 
I have my faca gaucha! The wife picked up the package from the local postmaster today. I can't believe it only took 4 weeks from placing my order to having my new knife. Good job all around Alexandre Hentges Kaspary Alexandre Hentges Kaspary and CBP and USPS!

👍🏼

I wasn't able to get home in time to take advantage of the light to take pics, so I'll leave off with this picture Sr. Kaspary provided.

IMG_2248.jpeg
 
I have my faca gaucha! The wife picked up the package from the local postmaster today. I can't believe it only took 4 weeks from placing my order to having my new knife. Good job all around Alexandre Hentges Kaspary Alexandre Hentges Kaspary and CBP and USPS!

👍🏼

I wasn't able to get home in time to take advantage of the light to take pics, so I'll leave off with this picture Sr. Kaspary provided.

View attachment 2563211
Well, congrats, Christian! Looking forward to more pics soon.
 
I have my faca gaucha! The wife picked up the package from the local postmaster today. I can't believe it only took 4 weeks from placing my order to having my new knife. Good job all around Alexandre Hentges Kaspary Alexandre Hentges Kaspary and CBP and USPS!

👍🏼

I wasn't able to get home in time to take advantage of the light to take pics, so I'll leave off with this picture Sr. Kaspary provided.

View attachment 2563211
Wow, that's a gorgeous sheath too.
 
The people demand pictures 😊

The people demand pictures ! 😅😎

I have listened to the demands of the people.

Alexandre Hentges Kaspary Alexandre Hentges Kaspary ships his knives very securely, in a zippered pouch that is bubble wrapped. I thought the pouch a nice touch.

IMG_2249.jpeg

Opening the pouch revealed a beautiful faca, with a round bolster that the Brazilians favor.

IMG_2250.jpeg

The buttcap is also rounded, and shaped to match the contours of the stag handle.

IMG_2254.jpeg

I asked for a faca with a 23 cm blade, but the blade ended up being almost a full 25 cm. I can't believe how much bigger it looks compared to my puñal.

IMG_2252.jpeg

Despite having a bigger blade, I think my faca is less robust than my puñal due to its thinner spine. I had hoped for a lomo ancho like the vintage German blades, but it's probably for the best as the faca already has a more blade-heavy balance compared to the puñal.

IMG_2251.jpeg

I already love this knife. Just the thing to have handy in case I ever find myself in a tree face to face with a jaguar.

IMG_2256.jpeg

😁
 
Last edited:
Back
Top