I have decided to Test a $350 Plus STRIDER

[Michelle]

I didn't know Strider used Ti in its fixed-blade knives.

Dear Mr. Linton,

The original post by the person who claimed how ridiculously inexpensive Strider knives could be made for never specified "fixed" blades. And if you would like to get nit-picky sir, yes, in fact, Ti has been used in some Strider fixed blades - alone, and also press-fit with other materials like Stellite. I own a dagger in fact with a Ti guard. These are customs of course, but if you want to play semantics, I'll play.

In any event, have you tried Google? It is a commodity.

As I'm sure most people here figured out, my questions were rhetorical. But for your benefit, I do in fact know what these things cost, and also how unbelievably expensive titanium has gotten over the last 12 months or so.

qoute=Michelle - Scale material
"Scales"?

Thank you for pointing out my typo.

A published statement of fact that (1) is untrue and (2) is made with reckless disregard for its accuracy, or actual knowledge of its inaccracy, is actionably defamatory if (3) it demonstrably caused injury to the person or entity about whom or which it was made. In some states, no actual injury need be shown to collect at least punitive damages if the statement was inherently injurious, such as claiming that a financial advisor steals from his customers.

Thanks for that. After working in law for 9 years I didn't need the definition, but it is good for others to know. The issue is not with profit margin. It is with inaccurate disemmination of information regarding the cost and quality of the materials used to produce a certain product that is at issue.

In any event, most makers suffer veen highly unfair criticism without "going to the law" as they are too busy making and selling knives.

FINALLY. We find a point on which we agree.

I wish you would cite facts and their verifiable sources to show that this is the case.

The point I'm trying to make, which you are missing because you are too busy trying to demean/make fun of me, is that m40's statement that their knives cost $10 to $20 to produce is ridiculous.

As it stands, just another opinion from a source of unknown expertise rergarding costs of large-scale production of a machined part.

And here is the crux of the matter.... the term "large scale production". Who deems what is "large scale"? Is there a specific number that qualifies for "mass production" or "large scale" quantity? How many knives do you all think Strider puts out each year? This is where I think a lot of murkiness enters the picture.

We all know the rules of commerce. The more material you can buy at once, the better the deal you get.

*raises hand*

I know how much S30V, titanium, heat treating, hardware, belts, and labor cost!
about $160 for a Skirmish, online retail
What do I win?

Hardheart, that's a great point. I guess I can send you my Skirmish if you really want to win something. It's #303 out of the first 1000 ever made. I warn you though, it's been used.

Actually the BM Skirmish is an excellent example and he makes an excellent point. But any BIG company with the ability to mass produce is going to be able to set a better price point. Economics 101 taught us that on day 1. A small knife company will never be able to compete with the price point of a large company like BM or Buck, (especially the companies who use over-sea's labor and/or parts). That's elementary. But even with a big company like Benchmade, you are still looking at $160 - not $10 or $20....

I just got done ordering some damascus and other supplies last week. For the time being, I can't afford to order in any kind of bulk whatsoever, so I for sure can't get optimal pricing on things. Hopefully things will change, but until they do, I am stuck at a certain price point for anything that gets produced. It's a sliding scale according to quantities.

Does it cost less for Strider to make a knife then what they sell it for? OF COURSE. Just like you and me they have families and bills. They also have the overhead of the shop, their employees, etc. Add onto that the military/leo discounts and donations to the tune of thousands of dollars every year. I challenge you to find me a bunch of knife companies out there that charge the cost of materials only for their knives. They don't exist.

As it stands, just another opinion from a source of unknown expertise

Thanks again for your reply Mr. Linton. I'm not sure why you felt a need to be so condescending in your reply, but that's okay. Maybe someday you will know that I am not a source that is totally "unknown" .... unless of course you don't.

Regardless, I think you know as well as anyone else here that the statement of these knives costing $10 to make was ridiculous and unfair.

Thanks to hardheart and others who debate these issues in a friendly and productive manner. It makes it more interesting.

Apologies in advance for any and all typos or misspellings.

m1

 

[Thomas Linton]

Dear Mr. Linton,

The original post by the person who claimed how ridiculously inexpensive Strider knives could be made for never specified "fixed" blades. And if you would like to get nit-picky sir, yes, in fact, Ti has been used in some Strider fixed blades - alone, and also press-fit with other materials like Stellite. I own a dagger in fact with a Ti guard. These are customs of course, but if you want to play semantics, I'll play.

Michelle, M40's original post (Post 434 in this thread) talked about a knife and its sheath. In contrast, M40 said nothing specific to a folder (nothing about scales, clips, locks, for example). If he meant Strider folders, I admit that I misunderstood his position.

As for the rest, I simply asked a question so that those with more information could enlighten. If that offended, I apologize.

As I'm sure most people here figured out, my questions were rhetorical. But for your benefit, I do in fact know what these things cost, and also how unbelievably expensive titanium has gotten over the last 12 months or so.

Again, I asked a question not understanding you were being "rhetorical." I thought you were making a point about a relatively expensive raw material, Ti. Sorry. Hurt feelings do not advance discussion.

Thank you for pointing out my typo.

I would be the last person in a position to do that. I was unclear. I simply didn't know that Strider fixed-blades came with scales. I thought they were cord-wrapped -- at least that is the image in my imperfect mind. Not all of us match the knowledge of those who are enthusiasts of a given brand, including Strider. That is why we need such persons in a discussion of those products. Look how a more knowledgeable person was able to clear up the "paint" issue.

Thanks for that. After working in law for 9 years . . .

You have made a good start. The saying goes that lawyers "practice" law, and much practice is needed. (Does Welsh apply in your state?)

I didn't need the definition, but it is good for others to know. The issue is not with profit margin. It is with inaccurate disemmination of information regarding the cost and quality of the materials used to produce a certain product that is at issue.

I quess we disagree about what has in fact been said and whether it is relevant or not. Such things happen here.

The point I'm trying to make, which you are missing because you are too busy trying to demean/make fun of me, is that m40's statement that their knives cost $10 to $20 to produce is ridiculous.

Truly, I was not trying to make fun of you. (I have had many lessons on how that effort is made here at BF.) I merely take the position that your point, which I could hardly miss, it having been made several tiems, MAY be well-taken -- or not. M40 may be incorrect -- or correct. I would like some information -- facts -- on that matter to supplement the denunciations and unexplained opinions that M40 "must be" a couple of quarts low.

And here is the crux of the matter.... the term "large scale production". Who deems what is "large scale"? Is there a specific number that qualifies for "mass production" or "large scale" quantity? How many knives do you all think Strider puts out each year? This is where I think a lot of murkiness enters the picture.

IMHO, what it costs to make a Strider knife is not determined, if it ever could be, solely by defining what "large scale" is. As I have argued, consistent with accounting practices, "cost" of a product is not only a summing up of incremental expenses (such as 6Al-4v Ti at @ $239.00 per .125 x 6 x 6" piece ) but also involves a fair allocation of non-incremental costs (such as the cost of the machinery and any debt service). So I respectfully disagree that we will ever find out if M40 is correct primarily by defining "large scale" and deciding if Strider is "large scale."

Certainly, the number of pieces produced impacts allocation of non-incremental costs and may impact what Strider pays for materials (or not if the company has the resources to buy in large quantity in advance of short-term need).

Actually the BM Skirmish is an excellent example and he makes an excellent point. But any BIG company with the ability to mass produce is going to be able to set a better price point. Economics 101 taught us that on day 1.

If there a company that makes heavy-duty knives of comparable materials that you DO feel is comparable in size to Strider?

Thanks again for your reply Mr. Linton. I'm not sure why you felt a need to be so condescending in your reply, but that's okay. Maybe someday you will know that I am not a source that is totally "unknown" .... unless of course you don't.

I respectfully suggest that your interpretation of what I posted is . . . your interpretation, not my intention. As for you're being a "source," I have no reason to know one way or the other. I do not start from the assumption that you are clueless any more than I assume that about M40. Knowing of no other way, I am stuck with trying to decide what weight to give to your contributions based on what I (think) I know, what I can discover in the process of deciding (including from others I have decided are "experts"), and the internal logic of your statements.

Regardless, I think you know as well as anyone else here that the statement of these knives costing $10 to make was ridiculous and unfair.

I suspect $10.00 is low, but I do not believe that M40 is wedded to $10.00 any more than I suspect that all loyal buyers of Strider would be happy with five times that number -- or ten.

 

[dpimpc]

I respectfully suggest that your interpretation of what I posted is . . . your interpretation, not my intention. As for you're being a "source," I have no reason to know one way or the other. I do not start from the assumption that you are clueless any more than I assume that about M40. Knowing of no other way, I am stuck with trying to decide what weight to give to your contributions based on what I (think) I know, what I can discover in the process of deciding (including from others I have decided are "experts"), and the internal logic of your statements.

I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure Michelle is the same Michelle (or M1) from the badlands forums who works at Strider, so she might have a fair idea of how they do things. Not supporting or dissing anyone, just to clarify.

 

[JimConvex]

Anyone who thinks that Strider, or Specialty Companies like his are Large Production Companies is Sadly Mistaken.

Making a Few hundred knives a week gives you no price advantage on Materials, Outside Services or Labor.

Costs will be high compared to a genuine Production Company like Buck or Benchmade.

You don't have to be in the knife business to figure any of that out.

Saying that a Company of that size could make a knife for $2.00 or $20.00 or even $40.00 is showing a total lack of knowledge of Specialty Manufacturing.

I believe these prices were used purposely and I interpret them as an willful attack.

Nobody could think a knife made from over a pound of $25.00 a Pound Steel could have $2.00 in the knife.

I don't have a Strider but I do know attempted Slander when I see it.

Jim

 

[hardheart]

So, consuming well over a thousand pounds of steel a month (over a pound each, few hundred a week), they pay as much as I would for a single piece 1/4" x 2" x 12"?

I'd be surprised if materials, profiling (if contracted), and heat treat went north of $50 per, or even got all that close. In-shop labor, I have no clue, but at a few hundred a week, as JimConvex puts it, per unit cost of labor ought not to be crazy.

But hey, how much does some oil paints and a canvas go for? It's obvious these aren't just cost plus priced, and enough people are willing to pay for them.

 

[JimConvex]

From what I know about Specialty Manufacturing,Not just knives, but any Specialty Manufacturing--buying a couple thousand Pounds of Steel will not get you much--if any price advantage.

I guess I could be wrong about that but I don't think I am.

Jim

 

[Thomas Linton]

See, Michelle, JimConvex is a good example. He has apparently only posted here in this thread. He offers opinions about the economics at Strider. What are we to make of those opinions? Are they informed? Who can tell. Maybe you can. It would be better to have the facts, but I doubt that it will happen.


Jim, why is it a "slander" to underestimate Strider's allocated production costs to make the part when Strider makes no statements about those costs and the market dictates price? And when there are so many happy buyers at the asked prices?


Maybe Brother BJORNN is right in principle, but in practice threads don't get locked at BF. They just have to play out.

 

[digdeep]

I am astonished that those who may own one of these knifes may be afraid that their knife may fail the tests (abuse.) Who GAF what they care. The results are sure to be facinating and revealing. Thanks noss4 for revealing the truth. As I have stated previously, I would like to see an Infi blade abused - I'll bet it cannot be destroyed. :thumbup:
I think there are some weenie whinies who "can't handle the truth." (apologies to Jack Nicholson.)

 

[gunmike1]

I like the Busse FBM for it's chopping qualities and INFI for being able to maintain a good enough edge to slice my thumb knuckle cleanly. I'm a superbada$$ and don't cut easily, but INFI seems to razor right on through, no problemo. 440C, S30V, 3V...all that crap just chips when it contacts my appendages.

Not bad, but my little thinned out S30V Native did this:







It's hard to tell, but it split my thumb lengthwise almost the complete length of the thumbnail and went right through the meat, leaving a gaping, gushing, thumb and forefinger with sides that didn't match up so well until I used gauze wrap with a lot of pressure and had the doctor sew me up. No bone contact, though! Went right through a package, then split my fingertips into two gaping, gushing pieces. Just me being dumbass, you know, normal stuff! Don't worry, I'm not trying to imply S30V should even be mentioned next to INFI in a large fixed blade, as it's properties seem the opposite of what you would want in a knife of that sort. Oh wait, what knife was this thread originally about? I was just using my tiny little S30V folder.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

Not bad, but my little thinned out S30V Native did this:







It's hard to tell, but it split my thumb lengthwise almost the complete length of the thumbnail and went right through the meat, leaving a gaping, gushing, thumb and forefinger with sides that didn't match up so well until I used gauze wrap with a lot of pressure and had the doctor sew me up. No bone contact, though! Went right through a package, then split my fingertips into two gaping, gushing pieces. Just me being dumbass, you know, normal stuff! Don't worry, I'm not trying to imply S30V should even be mentioned next to INFI in a large fixed blade, as it's properties seem the opposite of what you would want in a knife of that sort. Oh wait, what knife was this thread originally about? I was just using my tiny little S30V folder.

Yummy!


I am bringing my Native to a zero edge flat to the stone. . .

 

[Redguy]

As I have stated previously, I would like to see an Infi blade abused - I'll bet it cannot be destroyed. :thumbup:

I bet it can, like any other knife.

 

[Liam Ryan]

Cobalt, I am very sorry I berated you for acting childish.
It is quite understandable that you should sheepishly try to save face by going on the defensive and questioning my intentions.
But what you saw as me trying to stir the pot by mentioning busse was actually a legitimate warning,(but mostly a joke, but I know now you are laking in a sense of humour) as I would love to see this thread die rather then go on for 20 more pages, so the last word is yours sir,hopefully you do the right thing with it.

 

[zpaulg]

At the end of the day, costs etc aside, anything is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it!

You like it, you buy it. Whether you paid a good price for it or not is for you to decide!

Keep on spendin' and enjoy..............

 

[gunmike1]

Yummy!


I am bringing my Native to a zero edge flat to the stone. . .

That's what I did, except I had just put on a 15 degree microbevel, polished up to the level of Spyderco Ultra Fines. It was very slightly burred when I later checked it, but it was much sharper than my factory Manix at pushcutting. If you are interested in what I did I have a thread in the toolshed about what I did to the Native, and then myself.

 

[Liam Ryan]

Seems noss is saving the best for last, his ka-bar usmc test video was pretty good, and it got me thinking, could a test video be much better?
Do we really want guys in lab coats and a sterile workspace with a bunch of graphs and torque ratios and other such bull crap? A few do I am sure but noss seems open to suggestions if you want a specific test done, he would probably do it, and there is a good chance he will test a particular blade for you.
I just want to thank noss again for all the time/work/ and money he is putting into this, and remind him that the bulk of the forum is with him in his testing.

 

[zpaulg]

Not to nag but WHERE'S the test, Goddamnit!!!

 

[hardheart]

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4245876&postcount=1

 

[Broos]

I want my knives to be sharp, hold an edge WELL, be ergonomic, and either cut or chop or both well. I can get a bushman sharp, but it does not do very well in the rest of the above criteria. I could care less how many times a knife can be hit with a freakin hammer while being held in a vice, or how many times I can wail the flat of the blade against a vice (WTF?).

I certainly agree that a soft low or mid Rc50's bushman blade will withstand the senseless abuse demonstrated here longer than a S30V Rc59 blade.

What is not apparent is that the force it will take to break the Rc59 S30V blade in brittle failure will be MUCH greater than it will take to bend (then break) the bushman. In other words, when you are not taking any measurements of force, you can easily come to the conclusion that a soft blade that fails in ductile failure is "stronger" or "better" than the Rc59 S30V blade that broke in brittle failure. So the blade that is stronger looks bad, since you are just mindlessly beating them with no standards, no measurements, and no uniformity from hit to hit to hit.

Hand in hand with hardness/strength versus ductility/toughness is usually edge retention. I'll bet you'll sharpen the bushman about 10 times before the S30V blade needs one sharpening in normal use. For my uses of a knife that is important, but I guess it doesn't mean as much to those who use their knives mainly to break rocks and concrete blocks. I use my pick axe and cold chisel for that kind of work.

A real test has these things called measurements. There is a reason no company determines how to actually design or build something by "testing" like this (except for the chinese cold chisel mafia bastards). Because knowing how long it takes for a ding-dong to break a knife tells you ONLY one thing, and that is how long it takes a ding dong to break a knife.

Now if someone did some destructive testing and actually did it even semi-scientifically, and did it without being such a self promoting dweeb, I'd enjoy it and probably would not post criticisms. Or if it was "tested" to failure by throwing it as a spear I would find that somewhat useful, because this is the only feature on this knife that makes it attractive as a BOB knife to me. But what some people have read into these "tests" is just way too much. I apologize in advance for the long post & stirring the pot again. That is all.

 

[C. STORR]

knowing how long it takes for a ding-dong to break a knife tells you ONLY one thing, and that is how long it takes a ding dong to break a knife.

:thumbup: Perfect assessment. If you don't mind I'll keep this quote for future reference!

 

[Barrabas]

Beauty, and Value is in the eye of the beholder.
If something is not worth it to you, that's cool.

We all have different ideas of value about a great many things.
If I shared my wife's perception of value (when speaking strictly of blades), any thing costing more than a Ginsu, would be a waste of $$.

Does that make her wrong? Nope.. That's her opinion. I probably (if I had better economic sense) would share her opinion, but instead, for some unknown reason, I see a value in a Strider/ a Seb etc that makes them worth it to me. I don't care how much it cost them to make their products as long as they meet my needs.

And just to be honest, if it can keep a few more products made in the good ol USA, that means a lot to me.

One last note, in this - If all humans sat around and thought about what the materials/labor vs cost, to manufacture the majority of the products humans buy, I wonder what, if any products would really be worth what we pay?
Not many things would be, even though we know that, the value often is there for us because the time it would take for us to perfect a trade well enough to provide those things to ourselves is of more value than the product, so we would rather give the $$ and save the time for things that are of greater value to us.