Info on "Collin's Legitimus No. 986" hudson bay head?

300Six said:
Collins must have had an International good reputation which commanded high prices (or demand) in order for them to have gone to all those conniptions with extra names and stamps. Did Plumb, Kelly or any of the other big makers ever suffer through such indignities?
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Starting around 1900 (or earlier), Collins concentrated on exports (instead of the domestic US market), which is how it survived the price war in the US from the 1890s till the 1910s (Kelly slugged it out with AA&TCo and AA&TCo lost); and by 1946, 80-90% of Collins' revenues were from foreign sales; according to this excellent article in Fortune magazine from 1946:

https://www.fulltable.com/vts/f/fortune/az/cv/a.htm




The article is mentioned in another thread about Collins:

Steve Tall said:
Here's a detailed article about Collins from 1946. Collins evidently became more of a machete maker than an axe maker, starting in 1918:

"Collins Co., a $3-million corporation, makes 600 styles of edge tools, of which 400 are types of machetes."
"Collins original stock in trade, and its mainstay for 90 years or so, was the ax. From 1918 on, machetes rapidly became the major product."

At the time of the article (1946), 80 to 90% of Collins' total revenues were from foreign sales, and about 70% of the foreign sales were machetes.

Quoted from Fortune magazine, January 1946
https://www.fulltable.com/vts/f/fortune/az/cv/a.htm

A lot of historical information and photographs can be found in this article. For example, it mentions that Kelly started a price war in the 1890s (that lasted until 1915), bringing down domestic prices in an attempt to put its competitors out of business. Kelly suceeded in breaking the axe 'trust' A.A.&T. and bought up most of the member companies. Collins survived by concentrating on exports.

Also mentioned is that the total domestic consumption of axes (in the USA) declined from around 350,000 dozen annually in 1921, to around 200,000 in 1946. "The Collins Co. is busy in greener pastures. [machetes]"
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Steve Tall said:
. . .What's really at stake here?. . .
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I think the OP deserves a better answer to whether his axe is counterfeit or not.
What's at stake for you?



To BFC members:

The statement "The Collins No. 986 was being made in the 1910s, if not earlier, as shown in an earlier thread." was repeated in posts #4, #14, #16, and #18 (not by me).

I cannot find the specific information in that thread to support that statement.

If anyone can find the statement in the linked thread that the collins No 986 was being made in the 1910s I will:

1.) acknowledge that fact in a post ASAP and never bring it up again.
2.) donate $30.00 to BFC in the form of a Gold Membership (I have no use for the extras included).

This must be specific, not based on an illogical conclusion such as:

In 1912 A&F sold HB style axes
AND
In 1915 A&F sold Collins HB axes
AND
At some unknown point in time A&F sold marked No 986 Collins HB axes.
THEREFORE
The Collins No. 986 was being made in the 1910s, if not earlier.

Bob
 
Nothing illogical at all about the conclusion that the A&F 986 HBs were made in the teens. In fact it is the logical conclusion even if it happens to be wrong. All of the earliest examples of A&F HBs that I have seen are marked that way with the 986. The later ones are not. Abercrombie Camp (David T. Abercrombie Co.) (Same Abercrombie, different company) axes of the same era also have the 986 and Collins Legitimus markings. Just to confuse things further, The even later A&F HBs (late 50's to late 60's "Safari" axe) were different still with different marks and have Norlund characteristics. If you can't come up with a decent timeline of relative age just from your own personal experience researching, collecting and handling axes I don't know how to help you.

Lets say just for kicks that the 986 marked A&F HBs were not sold until the 20's. Who cares? So we missed it by a couple years. When do you think they were made/sold? Or are you saying that until you have a piece of certified documentation you can not have a decent, logical guess? That's a position I can't understand.

Why not just buy the Gold Membership anyway? I guess you don't need it if you are not selling anything but arguments. It seems like you are not "buying" anything either regardless of all the information generously handed out...;)

As to whether or not the OPs axe is a fake Collins, we can only guess.
 
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rjdankert said:
I think the OP deserves a better answer to whether his axe is counterfeit or not.
What's at stake for you?



To BFC members:

The statement "The Collins No. 986 was being made in the 1910s, if not earlier, as shown in an earlier thread." was repeated in posts #4, #14, #16, and #18 (not by me).

I cannot find the specific information in that thread to support that statement.

If anyone can find the statement in the linked thread that the collins No 986 was being made in the 1910s I will:

1.) acknowledge that fact in a post ASAP and never bring it up again.
2.) donate $30.00 to BFC in the form of a Gold Membership (I have no use for the extras included).

This must be specific, not based on an illogical conclusion such as:

In 1912 A&F sold HB style axes
AND
In 1915 A&F sold Collins HB axes
AND
At some unknown point in time A&F sold marked No 986 Collins HB axes.
THEREFORE
The Collins No. 986 was being made in the 1910s, if not earlier.

Bob
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Bob, I'm surprised that you're still re-hashing this. My previous response still applies:

I laid out the evidence I had, and stated that my conclusions seem reasonable to me. I get it that you don't agree on this point, but so what? What's really at stake here?
The overall conclusion I was making was about whether Collins' production of Hudson Bay axes could have had some overlap with the problems they had with fraudulent copies. We don't need to know the exact dates to come to this conclusion.



rjdankert said:
I think the OP deserves a better answer to whether his axe is counterfeit or not.
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Then give him a better answer, why don't you? Then the OP will have more evidence to consider. If you find something that refutes what I concluded, I wouldn't get up in arms about it.


rjdankert said:
What's at stake for you?
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Moving on to other matters, since my conclusion seems reasonable: Collins made Hudson Bay pattern axes (presumed to be pattern 986) during part of the time that they were reportedly having trouble with counterfeits.
 
rjdankert said:
Still no link.

Bob
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Haha, I might have to reconsider my previous assumptions.


Steve Tall said:
I'll assume that this isn't trolling, and address the additional questions/comments.

As previously clarified, YES that link to another thread was the correct link. And YES that linked thread actually DID have additional information not included in this current thread (I added this information to the current thread AFTER the question about whether there was another link):
(a) 1912 mention of Hudson Bay axe from Abercrombie & Fitch
(b) 1915 mention of Hudson Bay axe made by Collins for Abercrombie & Fitch.
(c) Auction listing for Abercrombie & Fitch axe stamped "Collins Legitimus No. 986"

As previously explained, that additional information (a), (b), and (c) was the basis for my statement that "The Collins No. 986 was being made in the 1910s, if not earlier, as shown in an earlier thread." This information did NOT appear in this current thread (as claimed) until after the initial question about the link.
...
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Square_peg said:
This thread is getting really boring.
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Only temporarily I hope. We have learned that counterfeiters abounded 100 years ago and that the Collins response of adding the Legitimus trademark didn't even slow down the fakes. As it stands any "Collin's" (with an apostrophe) is impossible to be a genuine "Collins" irregardless of how many points on the accompanying legitimus crown.
 
And I don't know for a fact that Collins ever used a 7 point crown. If they registered a trademark with 5 points then why would they ever issue a 7 point crown to confuse things? Are we certain that AF was above using a counterfeiter 100 years ago?
 
Square_peg said:
And I don't know for a fact that Collins ever used a 7 point crown. If they registered a trademark with 5 points then why would they ever issue a 7 point crown to confuse things? Are we certain that AF was above using a counterfeiter 100 years ago?
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It would be hard for me to imagine A&F doing that. In the early years, everything they sold was the best that they could obtain and they built a reputation based on high quality. I believe going around the Collins folks to save a few bucks would not have been worth the risk of damaging that reputation. If the quality of counterfeit axes were sub par they likely would have heard about it from their customers and since they already had a relationship with Collins, you would think Collins might get down wind of the idea as well. Just does not make sense to me but who knows?

If the quality of the counterfeits were just as good as the originals only they could be obtained cheaper, I would think they would have to be EXACT copies of the original and it appears that they were not. Seems to me I remember seeing several adds in old catalogs that pictured Collins Legitimus axes with labels on the handle just below the head. Those labels would have to be accurately reproduced/faked as well.

I don't get the 7 point crown thing either, that seems like a major change in terms of a logo.
 
There could have been a middleman or distributor between Collins and AF who made the switch. Or a disreputable middle manager at AF. We have those now. We could have had them back then. Heck, in our current corporate culture it's encouraged religiously to be disreputable, especially at the highest levels. A million ways for AF to have marketed bogus stuff.
 
Square_peg said:
There could have been a middleman or distributor between Collins and AF who made the switch. Or a disreputable middle manager at AF. We have those now. We could have had them back then. Heck, in our current corporate culture it's encouraged religiously to be disreputable, especially at the highest levels. A million ways for AF to have marketed bogus stuff.
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Due to some "recent developments" I am about ready to believe that you are right on target with this idea. Unless it can be shown that the apostrophe in the "Collin's" and the seven point crown is an actual Collins mark (possible but not likely I think) It seems there was shady business going on. On the upside to all this, I suspect the quality of the suspected fakes are good and they have an appeal all their own from a historical standpoint.
 
an interesting note, Herters sold an axe like that back in the 60s maybe before as a Hudson bay axe. The was a note that there were many accidents, cut legs so they changed the head. They ground of the lower point of the edge so it was cut off. For some reason that eliminated the accidents they didn't say why they happened
 
kokoek9 said:
an interesting note, Herters sold an axe like that back in the 60s maybe before as a Hudson bay axe. The was a note that there were many accidents, cut legs so they changed the head. They ground of the lower point of the edge so it was cut off. For some reason that eliminated the accidents they didn't say why they happened
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I have two of the Herters Hudson Bays and they both match up to the True Temper Hudson Bay/Montreal patterns. The heads were painted red with the bit unpainted and not stamped but the handles are Herters marked. I have seen the version that you mention with the flat lower edge but always thought it may have predated the others since the heads were stamped with the Herters mark. Where did you hear the story about the injuries leading to a change in design, it is interesting and I had not heard that before?
 
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If forgery really was a major headache for Collins business concerns (Collins and especially their Legitimus logo (which was created to counter innocuous and/or deliberate fakes since there were numerous old time tool makers with last name Collin/Collins/Collin's) apparently was viewed as 'blue chip stock' with regard to global annual sales of machetes) then surely there were detectives and investigators out there actively looking for makers of fakes. There must be written records about all this somewhere.
Upscale Abercrombie & Fitch (with it's well-heeled clientele) for instance would have been subject to the intense scrutiny of public outcry, press, politics, police and lawyers within days of someone becoming suspicious about the origin of Collins goods on their shelves and heaven knows it's easy enough to track purchase orders, cancelled cheques and way bills right back to the source even 100 years ago.
I'm enjoying this thread and it's really opening up my eyes to the sordid world of unscrupulous business interests. We know from direct quotes in this thread (thank you Steve Tall and rjdankert and others) that Collins had been concerned enough to alert the public in print regarding fakes and we now have some photographic evidence to substantiate this.
Collins under no circumstance would have put an apostrophe in their name. That would have been akin to Stanley Tools suddenly omitting the 'e', or Winchester changing their script.
 
Well, if the apostrophe in the name means a fake then indeed, A&F was selling fakes.

Whether A&F knew they were doing it is another question. It seems that many of the fakes were coming out of Europe and A&F certainly had connections and other merchandise being imported from London and Germany. If A&F was having them imported they would have to know they were fakes. If there was a middleman involved then perhaps they would not be aware of the fakes. The whole thing stinks really and I would love it if someone could prove/show that that apostrophe could be a real Collins mark.
 
carcdr said:
Thanks for the info. I'm going to make the handle myself - I have a lot of ash trees available, the tools, and (usually) the patience. I'll try to follow these guidelines.
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In going back through this thread I did find this from the original poster. Sort of become lost as this thread has been unfolding but I thought I'd answer. H-Bs have an inherent design flaw via their short eye and long head. This contributes to premature loosening of heads whenever they get hard use (especially if used for splitting) so if you're going to the trouble of fabricating a handle get the least compressible/most durable wood that you possibly can and fit everything to very close tolerances. White/Black/Red or Green Ash ought not be your first choice. Can you get your hands on Hickory, Rock Maple, Black Locust, Hop Hornbeam, Rock Elm or White Oak?
 
grafton said:
Well, if the apostrophe in the name means a fake then indeed, A&F was selling fakes.

Whether A&F knew they were doing it is another question. It seems that many of the fakes were coming out of Europe and A&F certainly had connections and other merchandise being imported from London and Germany. If A&F was having them imported they would have to know they were fakes. If there was a middleman involved then perhaps they would not be aware of the fakes. The whole thing stinks really and I would love it if someone could prove/show that that apostrophe could be a real Collins mark.
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I went back through the entire thread and the A & F Hudson-Bay photo depicts a proper COLLINS (no apostrophe) stamp accompanied by a 7 point crown. Yesteryear Tools website shows a 6 point crown on one of it's Collins Legitimus depictions but all the other facsimiles are 5 point. Would Tom, the author of this hugely informative site, still be active and could he be consulted on this?
 
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