Info on "Collin's Legitimus No. 986" hudson bay head?

300Six said:
I went back through the entire thread and the A & F Hudson-Bay photo depicts a proper COLLINS (no apostrophe) stamp accompanied by a 7 point crown. Yesteryear Tools website shows a 6 point crown on one of it's Collins Legitimus depictions but all the other facsimiles are 5 point. Would Tom, the author of this hugely informative site, still be active and could he be consulted on this?
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You were right, the photos I was thinking about were not in the thread but they are now. Here ya go. These Apostrophes are driving me nuts. I think just for my own sanity, my new theory is that there was a disgruntled, rogue Collins employee running around putting apostrophes on stuff...;)

s-l1600gh%202_zpszb3abzth.jpg


s-l1600hj_zps3wijikia.jpg
 
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Has it occurred to anyone that someone who would put a false Collin's stamp on an axe might also put a false Abercrombie & Fitch stamp on that same axe?
 
grafton said:
Well, if the apostrophe in the name means a fake then indeed, A&F was selling fakes. . .
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The only mark in this thread that I can find that shows the apostrophe is in the OP. And as far as I can tell that axe does not have an A&F stamp. My own conclusion so far is that A&F is a "red herring" in this discussion. Chasing A&F may be well meaning, but I don't think it gets us where we want to go.

grafton said:
. . . I would love it if someone could prove/show that that apostrophe could be a real Collins mark.
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My thoughts as well.


I believe that this thread is to identify if the OP axe is a legitimate Collins axe, not what was sold by A&F.

The other "red herring" concerns the discussion by Steve Tall and myself (which I think put Square_peg and probably others to sleep :D ) in this thread on when Collins made the No 986 . Regardless of which side one comes out on this, I don't think the date is relevant unless it can be said for certain that Collins did not use an apostrophe.

Bob
 
This is incredible! Two versions of Hudson Bay A & F Collins stamps (with and without apostrophe) and both adorned with atypical 7 point crowns. It's one thing to get involved in deliberate fakery in distant 3rd world markets but it's whole other to offer seemingly New England-made articles at an upscale store in a New England location. To me New York City is within spitting distance of Collinsville, Conn. and affluent sportsmen of the era would have been well attuned to 'prestige' stamps when they were buying things.

We need an infusion of additional information because I (for one) am now at a loss for words.
 
rjdankert said:
...
The other "red herring" concerns the discussion by Steve Tall and myself (which I think put Square_peg and probably others to sleep :D ) in this thread on when Collins made the No 986 ...
Bob
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I'll just say that it tested my patience to deal with the repeated questions regarding this sidetrack (or 'red herring'):

rjdankert said:
...
What I cannot find:
- What year(s) did Collins make HB's for A&F?
- What year(s) did Collins make No 986 marked HB's for A&F? (assuming for the sake of discussion, they did)
...
Bob
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Where did you hear the story about the injuries leading to a change in design, it is interesting and I had not heard that before?[/QUOTE]

It was in the Herters catalog I don't know which one but I think it was in the sixties
 
grafton said:
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Just ran across the ebay listing for those photos ("Hudson Bay Collins Legitimus N0.986 Abercrombie and Fitch Axe New York"). Here are a couple more:
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Starting bid is $200.00. I find the description quite a hoot:

"This is a wonderful useful piece of history. Made from 1912-1915 or thereafter. Hudson Bay style. Known to be used by trappers and those around the campfire. This 24" beauty leaves me speechless. I could find only one of these in my search for Knowledge. It's listed on Worthpoint, but for what, I don't know. For that I'm left in the cold. While I've never seen one before this physically, to see it personally.... There is some cracking on the leather, A crack in the handle that I've taken a picture of. And the butt has been hit a few times which I've t taken a picture of. well... I could go on and on. Take a close look and tell me what you think. A collaboration of Abercrombie & Fitch and Collins Axe Co. No idea who J E P was."

Bob
 
Yeah that's it. I was trying to tip toe about not exposing the auction until after it ran its course but I had a feeling it would be up here soon enough. The listing is what I was talking about when I mentioned "recent developments" in a previous post.
 
Square_peg said:
And I don't know for a fact that Collins ever used a 7 point crown. If they registered a trademark with 5 points then why would they ever issue a 7 point crown to confuse things? Are we certain that AF was above using a counterfeiter 100 years ago?
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We can find a six as well as a four point crown here.http://www.yesteryearstools.com/Yesteryears Tools/Collins Pt. 2.html
But still no seven. Hard to say if we have seen them all. The apostrophe in "Collin's" is for sure off though.
 
300Six said:
..... and affluent sportsmen of the era would have been well attuned to 'prestige' stamps when they were buying things.
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No they wouldn't. They'd be even worse off than today's buyers. They went shopping based on what they heard from a friend or maybe saw in a magazine ad months ago. His buddy bragged about his Collins axe from Abercrombie and Fitch that he paid a whopping $4 for!!!!!!!!!!!! He's so psyched to show his buddy that he found 'the same axe' for only $2.50!!!!!!!!! He couldn't pull his wallet out fast enough.
 
garry3 said:
We can find a six as well as a four point crown here.http://www.yesteryearstools.com/Yesteryears Tools/Collins Pt. 2.html
But still no seven. Hard to say if we have seen them all. The apostrophe in "Collin's" is for sure off though.
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We don't know that those are all verified Collins axes. Might be some fakes there. That 6 point looks goofy - I bet it's a fake. And I still can't figure why a company would register a trademark and then stamp something else on their axes. It just doesn't figure.

They surely used a simplified version of the 5-point crown and arm on their machetes. I have numerous examples of that. The shape and proportions stay close to the axe logo.
 
Here's a Collins trademark that's "different".
Was the artist badly hung-over, or something???

books


This information was provided by Collins in 1889, and says that Collins won 25 lawsuits in England, prevailed in 10 court cases in the US, as well as a number of German lawsuits. The forgeries made in England and Germany were said to have exact copies of the stamps and labels, while the imitations made in the US were similar enough to be deceptive. There is a great amount of detail in this book about the English cases.

books



from
Congressional Serial Set, U.S. Government Printing Office, 1890
 
Square_peg said:
That's a 5-point (points in front).
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Yes it is, yes it is. Five points "front". Not sure what the point (pun intended) is.

5(front) + 1(back) = 6 points showing.

However, regardless of how one wants to count points, the ad shows a variation of a Legitmus mark by Collins, posted "for general info", of a mark not shown previously in this thread.

Bob
 
Looks like 11 points total on the crown (6 in the foreground, 5 in the background) on the Collins trademark application in Great Britain. Some other variations are also shown below.

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From trademark application, Great Britain, 1877
GB500000000013349



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From trademark application, Germany, 1876:
DE500000000010642



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From trademark application, Brazil, 1943
BR500000002320835



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From trademark application, Mexico, 1927
MX501900010500444



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From trademark application, Brazil, 2013
BR500000906485991



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from European Trademark and Design Network tmdn.org
(with access to the WIPO (World Intellectual Property Organization) Global Brand Database)
https://www.tmdn.org/tmview/bookmark?q=tm%3Alegitimus#
 
Holy crap, Steve!

You've just written a whole new chapter in the Collins forgeries book. It baffles me that they would use so many variations. That just invites counterfeiting.
 
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