Rumor of happenings between Ontario and RAT Cutlery

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I have an RTAK, RTAK II, RAT-7, RAT-7 D2 and several other Ontarios that I have used for years. I was going to get a Retrubution folder (ugly recurve), but not now. In my view, Jeff and Mike created a line that even Becker lovers respected. I do hope they will withdraw this suit.
 
Thanks HD. You have been a long time user of our stuff and we truly appreciate it. If we have anything to do with it, we'll be discussing knives with you for many years to come.

Thanks,

Jeff
 
R.A.T. said:
Thanks HD. You have been a long time user of our stuff and we truly appreciate it. If we have anything to do with it, we'll be discussing knives with you for many years to come.

Thanks,

Jeff
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I am very impressed with your new RAT Cutlery line, Jeff. Once you get through all this unfortunate mess, I'd like to see something similar to the old Ontario Survival Bowie with pretty handles and the quality that RC has. That's my idea of a camp knife. Looking forward to that SERE knife. I have Al Mar's versions, but I'm thinking yours will be more robust.
 
Well, Ontario screwed the pooch IMO. The RC and RAT knives are complimentary to one another so far, not mirror images of one another.

I could have easily seen Ontario cutting a deal with RC to continue providing the "basic line" that serves the mass market and high volume NSN buys while RC catered to the enthusiasts and small run NSNs and purchase orders.

Friggin' morons in Franklin. In business it's 99.999% of the time far more lucrative to deal than to litigate.
 
Boats said:
Well, Ontario screwed the pooch IMO. The RC and RAT knives are complimentary to one another so far, not mirror images of one another.

I could have easily seen Ontario cutting a deal with RC to continue providing the "basic line" that serves the mass market and high volume NSN buys while RC catered to the enthusiasts and small run NSNs and purchase orders.

Friggin' morons in Franklin. In business it's 99.999% of the time far more lucrative to deal than to litigate.
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:thumbup: Well said...I agree !
 
You know, in looking at all of this (And I completely support Jeff, Mike, and RAT Cutlery) I followed the link to the Ontario page and in the second paragraph found:

The Randall's Adventure & Training knives have a full flat grind and 57-58 Rc hardness. The handles feature Micarta ergonomic handle slabs for increased grip when wet. The handle slabs are attached to a full tang and secured with stainless steel screws. Each knife also features an extended pommel with lanyard hole.
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The statement in bold seems to say it completely:

THE Randall's Adventure and Training knives - it seems they acknowledge:

1. RAT belongs to Randall's Adventure & Training

and

2. The knives belong to Jeff and Mike - including the designs.

Their site says they entered into a "exclusive collaboration" - details which are in the contract and it seems that RAT went into it with their designs and mass produced by Ontario.

Also:

The RAT-7 knife was developed by the Ontario Knife Company in collaboration with its designer, Randall's Adventure and Training, a professional survival team, and is not associated with any other knife manufacturer.
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I think if this ever sees a jury or a judge for a summary judgement finding in favor of RAT, the reasonable person should clearly see this.

I support RAT Cutlery!
 
There is no denying that Ontario does not own RAT simply due to our prior commerce in the cutlery industry with that name. There is no denying that we own the names and designs.There is no denying what's written (and signed) on paper in our contract. And, as stated above, the statements on their web site, and other places, even make the name and knives possessive to us.

As a side note to all of this, we have let no less than 6 lawyers read our contract (including our own lawyers) , and all of them have plainly stated that we're in the right and for us to go forward with our business.
 
Boats said:
In business it's 99.999% of the time far more lucrative to deal than to litigate.
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(edits mine) That's 99.999% true. ;) I sold hardware for seven+ years, for a company based in Europe, and several times a year patent or copyright issues would come up on various products. Both in the EU and the US, more often than not the situation was resolved as soon as someone mentioned that compromising was a lot cheaper than losing, or winning, for that matter.

After reading all of this, I think Ontario's shootin' themselves in the foot. I wonder how many folks have read this, and whether they've said so or not, have decided to take their business elsewhere. I wonder if anyone at Ontario is thinking of the business they're losing, as opposed to what they think they'll gain from this nonsense.

:thumbup: JEFF, I JUST WANT TO SAY I APPRECIATE THE WAY YOU & R.A.T. ARE HANDLING ALL OF THIS. :thumbup: Considering the way some of these things turn into nasty flamewars here, you've dealt with this in a very mature way. One day I'd like to meet all you folks personally.

thx - cpr
 
boring said:
So has Ontario dropped its litigation?
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We have heard nothing. Received no letter. Nick said on the phone that he would have his lawyers send the letter to us but so far, nada. Maybe they're talking their time drafting this thing. Who knows.
 
The "new" owners at Camillus ran that company into the ground. Wonder if we're starting to see the beginnings of a similar money grab at Ontario. I hope not.

Some folks have forgotten the meaning of a handshake. And of honor.
 
Hmmm, doesn't sound like there is much litigation. Just a long-expired contract. Then, since the contract is expired, an attempt steal all the names quietly. Maybe the "letter on the way" is just a delay tactic?

Jeez....
 
Who knows. I don't take well to threats. If you're going to threaten me then you better pull the trigger and drop the hammer.
 
R.A.T. said:
Who knows. I don't take well to threats. If you're going to threaten me then you better pull the trigger and drop the hammer.
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I think Ontario are the ones with something to worry about, it sounds more like RAT Cutlery are the ones who could tell THEM to stop using the name, rather than the other way around.
 
I don't post much any more but this makes me really mad.The only reason I have ever bought anything from Ontario is because of the Rat line.Most of the other stuff they sell is butt ugly.If they try to screw you guys they will pay BIG for it.
 
Blue Sky said:
I think Ontario are the ones with something to worry about, it sounds more like RAT Cutlery are the ones who could tell THEM to stop using the name, rather than the other way around.
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Ya know, that's not a bad idea. If this goes through Jeff should push to force Ontario to rename that series of knives -- contract is over, names go home.
 
Actually, the cease & desist letter should be headed to Franklin, New York.

Quit trying to steal our trademark. Quit using our name. Quit making our designs. Account all of our past and current design royalties through the end of the Ontario RAT product runs, which will be no later than April 15, 2008. The balance of the royalty contract is hereby terminated. Any future design infringement on your part will be immediately contested in Federal Court.
 
The way it sounds to me is that someone in the up and up in the Ontario company got a splinter in his ass about something or other and started rumors about a lawsuit knowing it would make its way down the grapevine. Most times when you hear about lawsuits you assume that the person/company being sued has done something wrong, so that could subconsciously create a sort of judgement in an average persons mind about the company being sued, without that person even knowing anything about the so-called lawsuit.

It looks to me like they might be trying to create a bad name for RAT Cutlery without ever going through with any sort of lawsuit (because it seems to me that they don't really have any basis for one). Considering you guys still haven't recieved OFFICIAL word from the prosecuting company's attourney, I'm leaning towards Ontario trying to slander the good name of RAT Cutlery.

Either way, screw Ontario. I'll never buy a product of any kind from them. :grumpy:
 
And by the way, I know this is a serious situation, however I can't help but see a little irony in it. In Ontario's own words, they describe RAT as a "professional survival team."

So, they've decided to try and kill a company that makes its living from surviving... Seems to me like they're in over their heads, deep pockets or not. You know, building a large and loyal customer base should be a survival topic... :p
 
Won't say a whole lot on the air waves but things are happening on our front. Boats, being the attorney that he is, has pretty much nailed it. We have sent notice to Ontario to cease and Desist using our name, making our knives, etc., etc., etc.
 
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