Bad SCAM - Ideological Falsehood - PP F&F

[toker]

If this were the case, wouldn’t the mods be shutting down every sale thread that said PayPal FF? There are quite a few. Come to think of it, why is it allowed at all if there is a sticky saying not to do it? I’m confused.

They are referring to PayPal suspending your account.

 

[Peter Hartwig]

I don't know about that. My state(s) would likely be the first in line for this and I've seen literally nothing of the sort. Not saying it doesn't happen elsewhere but I would expect either state I've lived in to have this in place and I've not seen it.

From what I can find-Illinois,Maryland,Mass.,Vermont and Viginia

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

I think the mods are doing a good job and should be thanked more (thank you for all the hard work, mods).

I am glad the mods have not decided to outright ban everything they (or I) might personally find inadvisable, distasteful or dangerous. They have been very principled in their restraint. I also appreciate that the mods have gone out of their way to make sure site patrons are aware of the risks. Seems to me like they have struck a pretty fair balance.

I certainly hate seeing people get taken.

Well said. I find Spark's decision to maintain freedom of choice commendable.

 

[Quiet]

Yup. Same here.

Sometimes, when the sale thread isn't "PPFF ONLY", I will post something along the lines of "I'll use PP G&S though I can take care of your fees". It's then up to the seller what they want to do. If they refuse then cool (though I have to wonder as to why).

It's already been explained to you as to why in several threads, so your insinuation that those all those sellers must be attempting to fraud others is a baseless allegation at best.

Personally, as someone who has sold many knives, using PPFF and have never defrauded a single buyer here, I would love to see Bladeforums' owner ban its use outright. That way, when suddenly no one wants to buy all these knives that are now higher priced* because sellers won't want to take a huge bath on their knives, and no buyers want to buy because everybody wants a smoking hot deal, then the sellers will just stop posting up. Then we can go ahead and finally kill the Exchange completely, and just get it over with. It's already halfway there, with the number of sales threads that sit because no one wants to pay A. the asking prices B. using PPFF or C. all of the above. If you think about it, this is a good thing. The scammers will leave, and only those folks with the few hot item knives will be able to make a sale. It'll be fine. Also, there are additional positives you aren't considering: a lot of people will stop trying to sell knives, which will possibly lead to fewer pictures being hosted on Bladeforums servers. I think it's a win win for everyone. I know Paypal and the IRS certainly appreciate everyone who's gone to bat for them repeatedly in all of these threads, if you contact them, you might even get a free hat!

It's all going to work out, you'll see.

* Because double taxation by the IRS is something that's awesome and everyone loves paying more taxes, and will price their knives accordingly.

 

[Quiet]

Fed may be on hold, but several states have been doing it for years.

Additionally, Paypal's own site claims that the $600 limit to reporting to the IRS started in 2024. So, if there's been a hard cease on reporting, I am not seeing anything other than articles that the IRS claimed doing so. Paypal sure isn't saying that.

 

[Peter Hartwig]

It's already been explained to you as to why in several threads, so your insinuation that those all those sellers must be attempting to fraud others is a baseless allegation at best.

Personally, as someone who has sold many knives, using PPFF and have never defrauded a single buyer here, I would love to see Bladeforums' owner ban its use outright. That way, when suddenly no one wants to buy all these knives that are now higher priced* because sellers won't want to take a huge bath on their knives, and no buyers want to buy because everybody wants a smoking hot deal, then the sellers will just stop posting up. Then we can go ahead and finally kill the Exchange completely, and just get it over with. It's already halfway there, with the number of sales threads that sit because no one wants to pay A. the asking prices B. using PPFF or C. all of the above. If you think about it, this is a good thing. The scammers will leave, and only those folks with the few hot item knives will be able to make a sale. It'll be fine. Also, there are additional positives you aren't considering: a lot of people will stop trying to sell knives, which will possibly lead to fewer pictures being hosted on Bladeforums servers. I think it's a win win for everyone. I know Paypal and the IRS certainly appreciate everyone who's gone to bat for them repeatedly in all of these threads, if you contact them, you might even get a free hat!

It's all going to work out, you'll see.

* Because double taxation by the IRS is something that's awesome and everyone loves paying more taxes, and will price their knives accordingly.

Just a couple comments
Certainly the vast majority of those using F&F are not scammers, but it does alow for the scammers and shady sellers to hide among you. It is their payment of choice.
Not all add G&S fees to their selling price. I don't factor it in my pricing. Price what I think the knife is worth G&S comes with it as well as shipping and insurance- not doing this to make a profit. Which leads to the last
Since I am not making a profit, I won't be paying any taxes, just having to file and keep some records.We will see if filing will be needed, the last 2 years they have dropped it late in the year. Maybe they will again. They have long since spent the money this was suppose to provide.
Certainly some of you are taking a political/tax stand, but my experience is that the vast majority don't even know why they are using F&F, just that others are.
I am sure you are a seller that could be trusted, but I still would not pay F&F on a purchase. I just don't.

 

[Quiet]

Just a couple comments
Certainly the vast majority of those using F&F are not scammers, but it does alow for the scammers and shady sellers to hide among you.
Not all add G&S fees to their selling price. I don't factor it in my pricing. Price what I think the knife is worth G&S comes with it as well as shipping and insurance- not doing this to make a profit. Which leads to the last
Since I am not making a profit, I won't be paying any taxes, just having to file and keep some records.We will see if filing will be needed, the last 2 years they have dropped it late in the year. Maybe they will again. They have long since spent the money this was suppose to provide.
Certainly some of you are taking a political/tax stand, but my experience is that the vast majority don't even know why they are using F&F, just that others are.

This is the problem, and has been explained ad nauseam in other threads since the IRS rule change was announced. This is a hobby, not a bookkeeping exercise for many of us. Also, it all smacks of "If it please the King, might I be allowed to sell an item I paid for? What? I must then prove that I didn't make a profit, or if I did*, then I will owe the King a portion of it, that he might send it to far away lands to aid in foreign pursuits that do not enrich us or provide for us? Excellent, I'll inform my vassals at once!".

The scammers are here because people are leaving their email addresses, or worse, using that email address and a very weak password to their account (and not using 2FI), and just not doing some due diligence to protect themselves or god forbid, take even a moment to request some confirming indicators that the person on the other end of the email is the correct person. An awful lot of people have been up in arms in the past couple of months over the use of PPFF, but the thing is, it's not the issue, it's just a symptom. You can scam people using virtually any form of payment, and it's happened here in the past.

As some of the Admins have stated, a lot of this would be entirely circumvented if people would purchase even a basic membership and utilize the PM capability, but even that has been derided by some of these non-paying members here.

So, for a lot of folks, the easiest thing has been to just stop selling knives (which is why so many few sales threads lately have been from longtime, high post count/participation members). I honestly think it'd be hilarious if Spark outright banned PPFF use (though it would most likely continue in PMs), and we watched participation drop significantly on the Exchange. Not everyone here likes spreadsheets or keeping track of receipts, and the outrage from those folks receiving a 1099 would most likely cause a further drop in participation. But hey! As I've already stated: there'd be fewer scammers, which is the big win, right? That, and all of the moral outrage puffery against people defrauding Paypal and the IRS could be turned to other things. It would be great.





* A rare occurrence for a lot of sales here

 

[stonesell]

Just a couple comments
Certainly the vast majority of those using F&F are not scammers, but it does alow for the scammers and shady sellers to hide among you.
Not all add G&S fees to their selling price. I don't factor it in my pricing. Price what I think the knife is worth G&S comes with it as well as shipping and insurance- not doing this to make a profit. Which leads to the last
Since I am not making a profit, I won't be paying any taxes, just having to file and keep some records.

Exactly, lots of F&F using members are not scammers.
I just try to make the final price of the knife attractive and uncomplicated to buy, with no need to factor in anything that will detract from being a good deal. I try not to lose more than 20% to 25%.

 

[topfuel6]

This is the problem, and has been explained ad nauseam in other threads since the IRS rule change was announced. This is a hobby, not a bookkeeping exercise for many of us. Also, it all smacks of "If it please the King, might I be allowed to sell an item I paid for? What? I must then prove that I didn't make a profit, or if I did*, then I will owe the King a portion of it, that he might send it to far away lands to aid in foreign pursuits that do not enrich us or provide for us? Excellent, I'll inform my vassals at once!".

The scammers are here because people are leaving their email addresses, or worse, using that email address and a very weak password to their account (and not using 2FI), and just not doing some due diligence to protect themselves or god forbid, take even a moment to request some confirming indicators that the person on the other end of the email is the correct person. An awful lot of people have been up in arms in the past couple of months over the use of PPFF, but the thing is, it's not the issue, it's just a symptom. You can scam people using virtually any form of payment, and it's happened here in the past.

As some of the Admins have stated, a lot of this would be entirely circumvented if people would purchase even a basic membership and utilize the PM capability, but even that has been derided by some of these non-paying members here.

So, for a lot of folks, the easiest thing has been to just stop selling knives (which is why so many few sales threads lately have been from longtime, high post count/participation members). I honestly think it'd be hilarious if Spark outright banned PPFF use (though it would most likely continue in PMs), and we watched participation drop significantly on the Exchange. Not everyone here likes spreadsheets or keeping track of receipts, and the outrage from those folks receiving a 1099 would most likely cause a further drop in participation. But hey! As I've already stated: there'd be fewer scammers, which is the big win, right? That, and all of the moral outrage puffery against people defrauding Paypal and the IRS could be turned to other things. It would be great.





* A rare occurrence for a lot of sales here

Stop making sense!

 

[ooitzoo]

It's already been explained to you as to why in several threads, so your insinuation that those all those sellers must be attempting to fraud others is a baseless allegation at best.

Personally, as someone who has sold many knives, using PPFF and have never defrauded a single buyer here, I would love to see Bladeforums' owner ban its use outright. That way, when suddenly no one wants to buy all these knives that are now higher priced* because sellers won't want to take a huge bath on their knives, and no buyers want to buy because everybody wants a smoking hot deal, then the sellers will just stop posting up. Then we can go ahead and finally kill the Exchange completely, and just get it over with. It's already halfway there, with the number of sales threads that sit because no one wants to pay A. the asking prices B. using PPFF or C. all of the above. If you think about it, this is a good thing. The scammers will leave, and only those folks with the few hot item knives will be able to make a sale. It'll be fine. Also, there are additional positives you aren't considering: a lot of people will stop trying to sell knives, which will possibly lead to fewer pictures being hosted on Bladeforums servers. I think it's a win win for everyone. I know Paypal and the IRS certainly appreciate everyone who's gone to bat for them repeatedly in all of these threads, if you contact them, you might even get a free hat!

It's all going to work out, you'll see.

* Because double taxation by the IRS is something that's awesome and everyone loves paying more taxes, and will price their knives accordingly.

I'm not clear on what's been explained, when, and how?

You seem to agree that this has little to do with the IRS and is about the fees instead.

If 3.5% of a sale price is a bridge too far then might I suggest that this hobby isn't for you. I'm not sure what hobby can be done for free (or close to it) but I guess you can let us know.

Maybe you should re-read my post though. I outright suggest that I'll cover the fees (so no one has to go thru the awful trauma of taking a 3.5% bath).

As it relates to the IRS, can they decide 2024 is the year to enact their rule? Sure. Does it matter? Unless you're selling $10s of thousands in knives annually, almost certainly not. The form has a literal check box for "personal property". You don't need to be "a book-keeping service". You can select "personal property sale" and estimate a value. Are taxes generally BS? Yep but I doubt many quit their jobs and go live off the earth just to avoid paying them.

Of course, you can also try selling a CRK garage sale style if you like. I doubt it'll be terribly successful but you can certainly try. Accepting electronic payments isn't "free".

 

[Quiet]

I'm not clear on what's been explained, when, and how?

You seem to agree that this has little to do with the IRS and is about the fees instead.

If 3.5% of a sale price is a bridge too far then might I suggest that this hobby isn't for you. I'm not sure what hobby can be done for free (or close to it) but I guess you can let us know.

Maybe you should re-read my post though. I outright suggest that I'll cover the fees (so no one has to go thru the awful trauma of taking a 3.5% bath).

As it relates to the IRS, can they decide 2024 is the year to enact their rule? Sure. Does it matter? Unless you're selling $10s of thousands in knives annually, almost certainly not. The form has a literal check box for "personal property". You don't need to be "a book-keeping service". You can select "personal property sale" and estimate a value. Are taxes generally BS? Yep but I doubt many quit their jobs and go live off the earth just to avoid paying them.

Of course, you can also try selling a CRK garage sale style if you like. I doubt it'll be terribly successful but you can certainly try. Accepting electronic payments isn't "free".

You state multiple incorrect statements here, and then insinuate that it must be because I'm broke and can't afford the fees. However, your sad baiting tactics, poor logic, and inability to have grasped what I've stated here are a you problem, and nothing to do with me. So, no, I don't agree that it's about the fees, and how you got "less to do with the IRS" when my entire point was concerning the IRS is frankly baffling. 3.5% in fees are irrelevant, and again, your attempt at making an insinuation about my personal financial state is laughable. My knife collection is likely of much larger value than yours.

However, I do enjoy how I just stated "Some of us aren't into bookkeeping" and because you cannot comprehend that other peoples' viewpoints could be valid (nor seemingly, the point I was making), just went ahead with "You don't need to do any bookkeeping, you just need...." and then proceed to describe bookkeepg\ing procedures. LOL Very big smart person moment, polite applause.

Anyway, I've said my piece, and am not interested in arguing with people who have been told things several times, but haven't ever seemed to quite be able to understand. Ah well.

 

[Blues]

This thread has pretty much passed its "use by" date.