Should custom knifemakers act against hype?

It`s weird how these "discussions" always end up with name calling. From the start, Cliff asked a very simple question which was met with an extremely paranoid response from makers without a lot to be paranoid about. This never ceases to amaze me. Cliff simply tests knives to the limits of their capabilities. He draws his conclusions. It seems as though there are makers out there that think we, the knife buying and using public, are just a bunch of poor, "uneducated knife clientele", waiting for Cliff to tell us what to think. We all love it when when he breaks a Mad Dog and everyone can trash Kevin from here to eternity. But when he questions one of "our" claims, well, "How DARE he..?? Who does he thing he IS..?? Some kind of a knife sheriff..??" Where does all this paranoia and insecurity come from?

Believe it or not, there are some makers that actually VALUE Cliff`s data. There are those who, instead of getting defensive, work WITH Cliff in the hopes of learning something new, and, perhaps becoming a better maker.

Then there are those makers who simply post disparaging remarks and don`t have the balls to leave the posts where everyone can read them. They simply leave a cowardly smiley face. It`s too bad. You guys are great craftsmen, and no one can help but respect the work you guys do. So why all the insecurity?

To your knifemaking abilities, I take off my hat. But to you guys as men, I put my hat back on. Seriously, grow up. We`re not curing cancer here!
 
Good information and food for thought here, but it is taking a personal twist. My pointed little head is very confused from the last two posts. (one I do not understand and the other is contradictory in the way I interpret it).

Any feedback - email me I will listen and correct my thoughts and actions if applicable. (i.e. for good reasons)
Peace

------------------
" I am continually reminded of the rewards of dealing with custom knife makers and the custom knife community." Jeff J.
 
Steve :

It seems as though there are makers out there that think we, the knife buying and using public, are just a bunch of poor, "uneducated knife clientele", waiting for Cliff to tell us what to think.
Click to expand...

Generally I try not to do much of the "buy this knife" in the reviews, interestingly enough, aside from comments like the above that Darrel has made, the biggest complaint I have recieved is when a makers blade significantly outperforms another and I don't explicitly say to buy that one. I don't do this as how am I supposed to know if that performance is what is critical to you - so generally I just state what the abilities are and let the reader make up their own mind. On the forums I will on occasion recommend one knife over when asked but when I do I try to be fairly explicit in stating why so people can determine if my reasons are relevant to them. Optimally I would just like to state the performance and let people make up their own minds in all cases, however some times the abilities are just so different the tendancy to make an absolute comment is very strong.

As for uneducated users, I have learned more from interaction with those that have read my reviews and discussed them with me than they have learned from me. It should be a two way street unless your reviews are just to preach a viewpoint you are trying to convey (usually for personal gain). When this is compounded many times the information flow can be very dramatic. Many of those invloved in the discussions will not post here, which is a loss, because of similar reactions such that this thread has caused. It does not hinder them from learning as they just carry out the discussions with the makers and other users that are interested in email. Because I am fairly open I am usually included in the the discussions which I am thankful for. The ones that lose out are the rest of the forum members who never get to see it.

Darrel :

The tests and demos performed by companies are most often with thicker stiffer knives that are designed for the purpose of entry, prying chopping ect
Click to expand...

The cutting performance of several of the knives I mentioned is quite high as the geometries are quite acute. The Strider bevels are at about 22 degrees, Busse Combat is significantly lower, the Ontario machete is probably the lowest, about 15, the HI's are probably the most obtuse, they are fully convex and yes are used as fighters (and some are more than 3/8" thick) , as are several of the Striders models and Busse Combat's blades (which have a common edge geometry across most models).

It is a common misconception that the cutting ability has to be quite low to be able to tolerate many of the things you describe, this is simply because it allows overpromotion of low durabilities saying that high cutting abilities require them. In fact these specific tests are not even that stressful, and there are large differences in performance between the high and low end steels which can allow for huge changes in functional geometries.


-Cliff
 
Steve
I value Cliffs data. I understand he loves knives. But he tries to use posts out of context to intimadate. SORRY NOPE.
If we start digging up posts from Cliff there will be big trouble. It would be easy to make him look really bad if you know what your doing.

1. I dont give free knives to folk who intimadate. I send them for testing to real life users and testers.
2. Cliffs testing would be much better if he understood that all knives are not built to be a pry bar. He tests this type of knife well. Others we feel he dont understand fully.
3. As for insecurty WRONG there is a growing force on these forums that dicounts Cliffs opinion because of his AGENDA and attacks . Some see this some dont. We will not be intimadated by people who we do not respect.
4. The post that Cliff made was for a purpose and he finally answered the question. So he deserves an answer. HIS POST WAS AGENDA DRIVEN. He was trying to start trouble.
We have his MO now and are not going to put up with BS from him. The post should have said (What as a knife community can we do to educate about a knife's use to stop hype). Talk about hype. There is a differnce in the tone.
5. There will be testing standards established. As for the personal attacks well we can work together or apart . If jousting is what he wants then that is what he will get.
WE feel Cliff thinks his word is gold but SORRY it is not. I have never seen him at a show. Does he care about what makers and knife users think. Not enough. He has one agenda. Free knives if he can destory them as he said in his post above. I can destroy a 50,000 car in a few mins. Should I pay for it . YES
Because I am charged for my actions.

Knives are not magic wands. Good ones are purpose driven beyond prying and chopping steel.
Does he ask questions and feel the knives for fit and finish, balance, style, purpose?
Not enough. He doesnt understand this part of knifemakeing.
Does he ask questions of leading knife designers and users ? Not enough.

A Person who claims being a knife tester should know his business. EVERY PART OF IT.

This may not be brain surgery to you Steve but it is to some of us. I invite you come to my shop and make your own knife bring Cliff with ya. Then I feel that you will see the point. Good makers work hard to make a living. It is a labor of love for some of us. There are many intense processes to building a knife.

Knifemaking is more than a bunch of old puddle jumpers hangin out making knives for beer money. We take our profession very personal.

Good day

------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
 
Well, talked (email) with some folks and thought it would be good to reopen this puppy.
(Cliff wrote a long response to you and my 'puter crashed hope you got it, some of it is in here)

Been watching this from the beginning and would like to offer some of my thoughts right or wrong to whoever reads.

I am not a maker, but my answer to the original question is yes. It is a question of integrity.

Testing.
Testing a knife to the limits of what it was designed to do is important to me.

Testing a knife to destruction does not hold as much water, but i do see it's merits. It does indicate the quality of how the knife was made when the test is compared to like knives.

Comparing a fast, light and balanced blade to a heavier thicker blade does not tell me much.

In a knife fight (not a likely thing for me, since I would be more inclined to talk funny, run fast or shoot in that order) I feel I would be better served with a faster balanced blade (us old guys need all the speed we can get
smile.gif
.

When I go to shows, some of the best knowledge that I obtain comes from the exchange between makers when one asks another of their opinion of their work.
The folks whose opinions I value have an ability to point out negative aspects (they are straight shooters) in a way that includes solutions to something they see or feel. They have a consistant style in the way they evaluate a knife and it is important to listen to what is said and not said to get the picture. I do not know of a decent maker who does not react well to respectful analysis of their work.

A tester has a fine line to walk. As far as I am concerned, it takes a while for a reputation to be developed just as it takes a while for a makers reputation to be developed. Respect is the key here and I see more than enough evidence of it at shows to make knives and the people associted with them a part of my life. (I am much better at not making mistakes in judgement, but I sure judge a lot less than I did in my youth)

I feel the post that questions the ABS testing parameters was either made by misinfomation or a sophisticated troll. Sorry if I offended you, but I do not understand how it even fits into the subject of this thread other than the word test and to me I felt it took an unfair shot (albeit an implication) at the combined experience of an organization that has no peer as to it's dedication to the perservation of the art of forging and making knives. (some may call me a brown-nose for the statement
smile.gif
(I suggest doing a little reading before you decide on that)
biggrin.gif


I am not about to get into old the Guild vs ABS routine. Since I also have great respect for both organizations and support them as best I can as a non maker. Now other two organizations have had the positive and every growing influence on all aspects of the knife industry as these have. There have been politics, mistakes and hurt feelings along the way, but that happens in any organization. I have a feeling it happens a lot less than average for knifemaking organizations.

There are other organizations too. The PKA comes to mind.

Any group that promotes this hobby that I enjoy in a way consistant with the ideals that permeate the custom knife industry as a whole is a good thing to me so I do not want to go there. (as far as the who vs who).

These tests were establishied by folks who have practiced the art longer than many of us have been alive. I think that experience speaks for itself and I doubt there are many out there capable of developing tests that are an indication of a makers skill better than what is used. I know personally that the integrity of these people is on solid ground without exception.

Lets learn from this thread rather than pick at each other. Lets also keep in mind that there are many who visit here that have very little or no experience with knives or to a greater degree custom knives.

Thanks you'all

------------------
" I am continually reminded of the rewards of dealing with custom knife makers and the custom knife community." Jeff J.

I edited due to constructive ideas and added to this due to some rants (by email) and some further thought.


[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 06-30-2000).]
 
AGENDA!!!!! really????????? undercurrents!!! honestly????????? presupposed suppositions- absolutely!!!!!!!!
smile.gif
 
Well cliff, I just figured out your logic, it has to be.. if you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance. baffle 'em with BS ...
 
I'd like to add a copy of my Guarantee:

I am a voting member of the Knifemakers Guild. My knives are built of the best materials available and due to the high quality I build into each knife, my guarantee is simple.

If you give the knife reasonable care and do not mistreat it, I will repair ir. I will resharpen, refurbish, or readjust it as needed, free of charge, to keep it in top working order. I reserve the right to make the decision as to whether or not it was mistreated. Remember, a knife is a high quality tool and if properly cared for, should last a lifetime.

You can beat concrete or steel with it, but remember, I have the right to decide if you abused it, not you.

 
All I know from my limited involvement with this forum is that it is taboo to criticize a maker and that they immediately go into the defensive crouch. I have not bothered to even look at the forum for quite sometime as it really did not seem like an open "forum" for which debate was invited. Instead, to me, as a "newbie" it seemed that that it was designed as a promotional marketing tool for makers, and god forbid you should say something remotely negative. I also have concern about the objectivity of makers who also act as moderators on this forum. Maybe if you advertize here, promote your wares openly on threads, you should not act as a moderator with the ability to close threads when you personally don't like the content. The moderator/maker who is so concerned about the welfare of "newbies" shouldn't sell them knives with clips that only have 2 of 3 holes drilled and filled and think that they won't notice. "Newbies" show things to other "newbies" who do notice. Other "newbies" also notice when a custom knife is ordered with a black blade and it doesn't come that way, or when the ordered blade length is shorter, or when the blade has grind marks all over. For all the makers concerned about the "newbies" we give you our whole-hearted thanks.
 
What took you so long RH. There are no makers that moderate this particular forum. Therefore they do not have the ability to close threads here. I have no serious commercial interest in knives other than wanting to see the industry perpuate and grow.

I am just a collector who buys, sells and trades and enjoys a hobby (I buy more knives than I sell). As far as the other co-moderators in the Custom forum you will have a difficult time finding them promoting themselves in an unprofessional manner in any venue.I know them. As far as makers I think most of us enjoy seeing collections and knives by our members (collectors and makers alike). Please show me an example in the Custom Forum of a thread that was locked that illustrates your point by one of the three moderators here now.

I still think you should rethink your decision to not work out problems with the maker. Seems to be a grudge as much as a complaint to me. So far tonight the complaints are not holding much water.

------------------
" I am continually reminded of the rewards of dealing with custom knife makers and the custom knife community." Jeff J.


[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 06-30-2000).]
 
Originally posted by Gus Kalanzis:
Seems to be a grudge as much as a complaint to me. So far tonight the complaints are not holding much water.
Click to expand...

No doubt about it. We've been through all this before...
rolleyes.gif



------------------
Kelly
My Custom Knife Collection
AKTI Member #A000289

Deo Vindice
 
Gus, as I indicated I have not bothered to look at this site for awhile. I basically decided based on my experience that it just was not worth the time. For your information another "newbie" suggested that I take a look again. I was not referring to you in my post--and you should know that. Maybe you can inform us exactly who decides to close a thread and what the role of a moderator should be on the custom forum when a modrator is also a maker who percieves that he or she is being criticized. I took care of the issue of the knife by getting rid of it. If that is what you were referring to.
 
RH the only three people who can close threads in the custom forum are the custom forum moderators. Spark and Mike also have those rights as site administrators.

I think Spark closed on here a while back and I am thankful that he did. The last one I closed was on a question that really did not belong here it was moved. (Even though I played a part in helping the poster get an answer)

The term this forum as opposed the the forums meant somthing quite different to me.
What was the reference. I would prefer to go to email with this, but I can not get in touch with you.

I am by the nature of what we are talking about biased. There are 1000's of makers out there and I only know a couple of hundred. Some of them I am lucky to have as friends. When I see posts that do not reflect the person I know and respect I know something must be wrong maybe a mistake was made, but the makers I have as friends and many others that I have not met or had the time to get to know will drive themselves crazy trying to please a customer up to a point of course. These are people I have known for years.

It is hard for me to take the complaints seriously when I know of the character involved.

At the same time I try to do everything I can to encourage new folks (collectors and makers) that I have gotten to know one way or another. Both here and privately. You would be amazed at how much mail pertaining to this forum hits my box every day. Some of it is total BS some deserves a response.

(Thankfully I have developed software for 20+ years and can type fast.
smile.gif
(Especially when I don't take time to punctuate or check my spelling.))

[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 06-30-2000).]
 
Rosco
My warentee says the same thing as Mr Carsons.
Yes when the apogee first came out I was putting clips on with TWO SCREWS. You asked about this at the table. The apogee was developed as a using knife Rosco. My comment on the clip was it would hold with two screws. Did it break in a normal everyday function? Rosco personally I am not a clip person. You bought that knife off my table. Please once again send me the knife and I will be glad to replace the clip or put the screw in for you.

As for others questions about a damscus blade apogee . I dont know what your talking about.
please once again send the knife . My warentee will cover what ever it is that is eating you. BTW In my specs for my knives ..
most often say that the blade lengths are aprox. Here is the link that says it.http://www.darrelralph.com/forsale.html
I make them one at a time.
Rosco it seems that you will not be satisfied until I fly to NY pick the knife up and fly back and give it to you . I believe you bought this apogee from a dealer who has a 7 day return policy. Did you return it if it was all banged up and scratched?
I have made this offer to you many times .
I will even update it. What more could you ask for.
I will also turn the knife around in one day and have it back to you .
Thanks
wink.gif


As for the Black Blade well I have to admit that I overlooked the the black blade on an order for a fellow. Since that time I have
built him special parts for his knife and done everything I could within my power to make him happy. Rosco when I get an order for a knife I ask that folks email it to me so I dont forget things. I overlooked the black blade on this order.
Shyt happends And I will be the first to admit that I am not perfect.
I get 4 emails per day from
Folks that change what they want or the specs of the knife. I am one man who wears many hats. Please do not take this as a compliant
I missed one.

Senator thanks!

------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 07-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 07-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 07-01-2000).]
 
Kit Sound good to me, most all of the individual makers that have any experience in knives wil give the same backup to their work. Unfortunately there are a few who arn't much good at gaurantees (usually they arn't much good as makers either). You only have to look at the general spectrum of humanity to see that there is a small percentage that arn't worth a crap periode. I like to think that the knife community has a much lower "dung" percentage than the general population. When it comes to indivual makers the bad ones don't stick around long (knife making is work and is an expensive process if its done correctly)economics drive them back to where they came from.

Roscoehound
If what you stated is true,and after Darrels post I wonder. Any maker worth his salt regrets the bad experience you seem to have had with a knife order. I hope you don't judge all of us by the conduct of some one if they, in fact, gave you a raw deal. I would recommed that in the future you get to know the maker (if he is an individual) and check with people who own his product. Be specific as to what you want and make sure he backs up his work. You will get a much better knife.But don't expect something for nothing. That only happens when politicians make promises.

------------------
old pete

[This message has been edited by Pete Peterson (edited 07-01-2000).]
 
Cliff
Thanks for the post. I feel that we will just have to agree to disagree on certain subjects. I know it has to be tough to walk a thin line. I am also surprised with the tone of your post.
At this time I am gathering information on a set of tests for knives. These will include yours and Les's point about extreme testing .
BUT they will also include an abuse waiver for this type of testing. Most good makers stand behind there products. They also test steels and the materaials they use in there knives to the extreme for there records.
I feel it is better to get along than to joust.
Thanks

------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
 
Pete, I have not said anything that is not my belief. I am a "newbie." Don't you think that I should be able to rely upon what a maker tells me at a show without further inquirey? Should a "newbie" have to look into every aspect of a maker's past to determine whether the knife should be bought? Seems to me that would put a damper on knife sales.
 
Old Pete
Rosco bought the knife off my table ,
It was never an order. He asked me about the two screws in the clip at the show. I didnt feel (in that time frame) that three screws were nessasary and I still do not. That is what I told him at the show. My story has not changed one bit.
I have asked this fellow with respect to send the knife to me and I will put the other screw in , update and refinish the knife for N/C in one day and return it to him.
Pete a lesson was learned on my part with this experience. I now have two hole clips. Each hole has a screw.

As for his other complaints I have rectified an order for a black blade that I missed.

The other complaint about a damscus blade being scratched was purchased from a dealer.
I stand behind my product as you do.
I have once again told him to send it to me and I would take care of any problem.

I dont know what the problem is until I see the problem. Rosoco has a differnt set of problems every time he pops up.

So Rosco here is what I will do for you to make you happy. If you send me the knives I will refurbish them and find buyer for them for you . If they were new and you were not happy I would refund your money. But In this case I feel that having them for 6 months changes that somewhat. Im positive I can find homes for them within 30 days and you will be out NOTHING.
In return I feel that you should offer something also? How about just being happy with the situation after that?


------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com



[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 07-01-2000).]
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top