Spyderco Manix 2 and Benchmade Griptillian - Next 2 test knives

[tungsten]

I will not be buying ANY Spyderco products now that I've seen Eric Glesser's posts in this thread. It has nothing to do with the products themselves, but the complete lack of understanding of how to deal with the situation. A simple statement saying that the knife failed under stress it's not designed to handle would've sufficed. A "we'll look into it" would've sufficed. But to attempt to discredit and dismiss the results of this test as he has shows the company, or at least someone very high up in the company, doesn't care enough about its consumers and their concerns to even act interested.

And I choose to spend my hard-earned money with companies that at least pretend to care.

EDIT: It's worth noting that this entire thing seems to run counter to Sal's "leave shiny footprints" motto. I know that rose out of an entirely different issue, but it would seem that Eric's responses in this thread are rather hostile when perhaps a cooler head should be involved.

+1, my thoughts exactly.

There's no indication at all that Ankerson is dishonest. He tests one sample of a knife in a certain way an shares the results, most of them pass, some do not.

He surely doesn't deserve all the flak and accusations by Spyderco and their fanboys.

And if overstrikes destroy a Manix 2 (if it wasn't just that single knife, something Ankerson considered possible), it's simply not as solid as the other knives. No big deal, but interesting nonetheless.

 

[jill jackson]

And if overstrikes destroy a Manix 2 (if it wasn't just that single knife, something Ankerson considered possible), it's simply not as solid as the other knives. No big deal, but interesting nonetheless.

Maybe it's the fact that the lock is a spring loaded ball bearing and it's being struck hard repeatedly right under the lock? The lock no doubt is solid and will keep the blade from closing, when you are using the blade. That is normally.
I don't think it has anything to do with solidness of build, but it's just striking that design that hard under the lock causes it to move out of engagement. I've seen liner-locks do the same thing when spine-whacked. They tend to either be forced out of lockup, or the liner will go to the far side. It seems to depend a lot on if the liner is seated in deep or just barely making contact.

 

[singularity35]

Maybe it's the fact that the lock is a spring loaded ball bearing and it's being struck hard repeatedly right under the lock? The lock no doubt is solid and will keep the blade from closing, when you are using the blade. That is normally.

At first, the knife was a lemon or defective in some way.

I don't think it has anything to do with solidness of build, but it's just striking that design that hard under the lock causes it to move out of engagement.

Does this mean that it is the design of the lock that makes it inadequate for the tests?

I've seen liner-locks do the same thing when spine-whacked. They tend to either be forced out of lockup, or the liner will go to the far side. It seems to depend a lot on if the liner is seated in deep or just barely making contact.

And I thought that liner locks were considered by spyderco to be inadequate for an MBC rating. Well, the Emerson's liner lock seems to be stronger than an MBC rated spyderco lock. But I don't have any problems with that if Spyderco mans up to it and most importantly tries to fix it.


And last of all is Eric's treatment of Ankerson. :thumbdn:

 

[jill jackson]

At first, the knife was a lemon or defective in some way.



Does this mean that it is the design of the lock that makes it inadequate for the tests?



And I thought that liner locks were considered by spyderco to be inadequate for an MBC rating. Well, the Emerson's liner lock seems to be stronger than an MBC rated spyderco lock. But I don't have any problems with that if Spyderco mans up to it and most importantly tries to fix it.


And last of all is Eric's treatment of Ankerson. :thumb:

I never said the knife was a lemon or defective. (other than the pivot may have been too loose to start) I don't know anymore about exactly why it failed than you do. I'm just saying maybe it won't pass having the handle struck under the lock hard repeatedly. Not the end of the world to me if it won't. It cut very well and that's what I use a folder for. I don't own a Manix 2 but if I did I'd feel safe using it, the way I use a folder. If you feel you may use a folder so hard as to strike the handle under the lock, then maybe you shouldn't trust it.
Spyderco uses a lot of liner locks and they are well received and considered as good as they get. The Emerson had it's lock move all the way over and stop. I've seen cheap knives do the same thing, when spine-whacked. If the lock is in fairly deep on the blade tang it will generally do this. If it's early on lock up it can go the other way and unlock. That could even change over time as an early lock wears in and would tend to travel towards the unlocking side under shock..
I can understand Eric being upset. He designed the Manix 2 and I'm certain Spyderco knows the lock will hold and keep the blade from closing when the blade is being used. I highly doubt they even considered striking the handle to test the lock.- As it is he could have just explained why the Manix 2 won't take the over-strikes and let it go at that, if he's found out it won't and why it won't.
I collect Spyderco, mainly because they are desired and have great resell value. I always liked being able to know I can get the money I have back if I need to. I'm not a rabid fan that thinks they are the only knife worth carrying. I have other brands and enjoy them as well. I'm just trying to figure why the Manix 2 failed and maybe that spring-loaded ball lock doesn't stay in lock up when struck like that 5 times in a row. As it is we still don't know what the deal is exactly. The way it's going that's not going to happen.

 

[singularity35]

Ok, Jill.

 

[Buffalohump]

It's amazing that these testing sagas always turn into a debacle of endless arguing and sniping over petty issues that have long ago lost any meaning. Same old Noss4 sh*t all over again.

Sometimes this place make me think of a bunch of old ladies sitting around with their knitting arguing over who was better looking - Clark Gable or Cary Grant.

Get a life and get over it, its old news already! :yawn:

 

[jill jackson]

It's amazing that these testing sagas always turn into a debacle of endless arguing and sniping over petty issues that have long ago lost any meaning. Same old Noss4 sh*t all over again.

Sometimes this place make me think of a bunch of old ladies sitting around with their knitting arguing over who was better looking - Clark Gable or Cary Grant.

Get a life and get over it, its old news already! :yawn:

What's the use to test if you aren't going to determine why something tested failed? Hardly news at all when we don't know why. Maybe you don't care but I'm curious about the ball lock now.

 

[Buffalohump]

So get one of your Manix IIs out and use it hard! Test it yourself, nothing better than that...

But I can guarantee your definition of 'hard use' will differ substantially from Ankersons and the thing will still be right as rain afterwards.

What's the use to test if you aren't going to determine why something tested failed? Hardly news at all when we don't know why. Maybe you don't care but I'm curious about the ball lock now.

 

[jill jackson]

So get one of your Manix IIs out and use it hard! Test it yourself, nothing better than that...

But I can guarantee your definition of 'hard use' will differ substantially from Ankersons and the thing will still be right as rain afterwards.

I don't have a Manix 2. I never really took to the new design of the Manix. I do have a few of that lock design, just not a Manix.
I'm not nearly as big and strong as Ankerson. I doubt I could put it through the same stress.

 

[Buffalohump]

Nor will 99% of tasks that a knife is typically required to perform, whether by you or Jim the strongman.

I'm not nearly as big and strong as Ankerson. I doubt I could put it through the same stress.

 

[LorenzoL]

Some suggested earlier that that particular knife might have been a lemon, I tend to believe that it might have been disassembled by some curious owner, who later forgot to lock the pivot screws properly. Contrary to Jill, I have quite a few Manix 2s, none came with any blade play or loose pivot. None loosened with use. If it were to loosen, all it would take is a Torx bit to fix it.
As for the CBBL design, it cannot fail under normal stress unless the ball is not properly held in place, i.e. if the screws are loose.
I think Eric should not have bothered to comment about this "test", I am not sure but I can't remember Chris Reeve commenting on Noss' destruction tests...

 

[Ankerson]

Some suggested earlier that that particular knife might have been a lemon, I tend to believe that it might have been disassembled by some curious owner, who later forgot to lock the pivot screws properly.

The knife was NIB shipped directly to me from Knife Center, it had never been opened etc before I got it.

 

[Steven Andrews]

Oh well then, it must have been a display knife in the shop.

 

[Jason B.]

The "failure" of the Emerson liner lock was perfect and you couldn't ask it to do better. If you did this test with the Military it would happen in the same way, IIRC cliff stamp spine whacked a millie to destruction, you should look that up. It's what a liner lock SHOULD DO when that much force is applied, you should be happy its not going the other way.

The really sad part about this is that too many are taking the failure of the Manix 2 to heart. I'm also not very impressed by the unprofessional response given by the designer of the blade. You can give numbers all day but have you heard the saying "looked good on paper"? It can be perfect in design but if its not put together correctly you never know what will happen.

In my many years of using a knife I have found out a lot about them. I like mechanical things so naturally I like folders, I also have very high standards of quality so folders right out of the box rarely make grade for me and even ones that do still need tuning. Proper tightening of frame screws and making sure the pivot screw is of proper tension are key factors in making sure the knife functions properly. If the pivot screw is removed a common mistake is to not re-apply thread locker (if there was any to start with), once the bond is broken it cannot be reused.




Eric Glesser, Of all people you should be able to easily tell what went wrong just by watching the video.

It's easy to spot from the very beginning that the knife became loose, most likely due to the lack of thread locker or proper torquing of the screws. Once the knife became loose the test results past that point become void because the lock is no longer in tolerance ranges. The fact that the test continued furthered the problem and ended up becoming damaging to the lock starting with the first spine whack and continuing with every one after. The impact of the spine whacks in total either A) only caused premature wear decreasing the life of the lock B) caused deformation of the mating surfaces to the point the lock needs to be replaced. But again the results of the spine whack became VOID even before they happened.

To repeat this test correctly properly assembly of the knife is the most important factor and hopefully you understand that.

 

[STR]

Not to beat a dead horse because I already have five posts too many in this thread, six now. But I have to add this last thought and then I'm sidelining this one with popcorn. So you can quote me but I'm done here after this.

I really don't believe you can expect to tie in the numbers from the older ball locks like the Dodo, D'Allara, Phoenix, and perhaps one or more others built like that with this new design on the Manix 2. These older locks still referred to also as ball locks are not the 'caged' ball locks and in my opinion the similarities stop at 'ball lock' really. Not only are they designed differently now but the balls are different sizes and it appears to me they are set up only vaguely the same with different size springs and different ways of holding the ball in place, as well as, releasing the lock.

I find myself asking if you can really expect to use those numbers for 'all' ball locks with the new lock design. Seems like a bit of a cheat on the numbers to me to improve the way it looks on paper. Anyway, the other thing that comes to mind is this. I've personally watched I don't know how many ball bearing lock failures on youtube now. One just the other day on a Dodo I was written and asked about as to if I thought I could do something to improve it. Oh, speaking of that, I've owned two Dodos that the locks defeated on myself. I own two now and one of those has a lock that gives all the signs that it will defeat quite easily also because spine pressure moves the ball that way but I am afraid to find out so I just tucked it away leaving it so I don't ruin the pretty picture of it I want to keep in my mind.

Since the Dodo was discontinued I've worked on five Dodo models for customers for lock issues and the reason they sent them to me was because they didn't want to lose the knife and get a store credit toward something Spyderco offers now since the knives were discontinued so in short the numbers don't tell the rest of the story. Five is not many thats for sure but then I'm not the only one that works on knives out there either.

This model of the Manix 2 is new. It has not been out long enough to call it a success or a failure yet. Success in a test, or failure in a test are both events. They are not the designer, or the knife model. They are one event that took place and we need to remember that when looking at the model and the design as a whole. If it were a person going through life and he/she suffered a failure its an event. Not the person. Success is no more the person than the failure. These events can happen to any of us. The knife in question suffered some events that are not very pleasing. It does not necessarily mean the one in your hand will suffer the same way.

STR

 

[Ankerson]

Just finished testing another folder in the Hard Use testing Series.

The weather finally improved so I could do it.


The CS Black Rhino, video will be up later today.

 

[proguide]

I can't read this anymore.

 

[LorenzoL]

Just finished testing another folder in the Hard Use testing Series.

The weather finally improved so I could do it.


The CS Black Rhino, video will be up later today.

Let me guess what the outcome will be...

 

[Ankerson]

Let me guess what the outcome will be...

Watch the video and find out once it's up.:thumbup:

I had already tested the knife before using the old format like the Strider and ZT 0301.

So this is a retest using the new format.

 

[razorburn]

It's easy to spot from the very beginning that the knife became loose, most likely due to the lack of thread locker or proper torquing of the screws. Once the knife became loose the test results past that point become void because the lock is no longer in tolerance ranges. The fact that the test continued furthered the problem and ended up becoming damaging to the lock starting with the first spine whack and continuing with every one after. The impact of the spine whacks in total either A) only caused premature wear decreasing the life of the lock B) caused deformation of the mating surfaces to the point the lock needs to be replaced. But again the results of the spine whack became VOID even before they happened.

To repeat this test correctly properly assembly of the knife is the most important factor and hopefully you understand that.

:thumbup: Of all the folders that were hard use tested this was the only knife that had an extremely loose blade.I still feel it should be retested and not babied in an way.