To carry a firearm in a kit or not?

One of the age old controversies for a survival kit s whether or not to include a firearm in the kit, and if so what kind of gun. Rifle or pistol? Large or small caliber? I would guess most answer this by asking what is expected of the kit and where it is to be stored. And where realistically the kit might be used, and by whom the kit might be used.

For a vehicle carried kit, used mostly as normal familial usage (whatever that may be for yourself), camping and hunting trips, etc. What are your thoughts on this subject?

In my truck, 4 wheel GMC 2500 along with various other survival gear (items added and subtracted due to seasons) I carry an S&W Kit Gun, Holster, and ammunition. It is carried in a locked case, not readily available to any passenger in accordance to my state laws, of course interstate rules and regulations would be observed but this is generally not an issue. The reason I decided to carry a weapon is for any number of issues that can be encountered, but it boils down to I would rather have it when needed , than not have it. It would be useful in a true survival situation for food gathering, protection etc. It would also be useful in the case of finding a badly wounded animal. And also I have to admit, I have camped places where the small comfort of it near my bag helped me sleep a bit easier, due mostly to two legged critters. Also, since it is just my wife and myself, I have less worry about children gaining access to the weapon.

The reason I choose a pistol is ease of carry and minimal size impact. Even the smallest of breakdown rifles still is considerably larger. Yes, I know a rifle is easier to shoot, especially under stress than a pistol. But I take this pistol whenever I go to the range and shoot it also no matter what else I am shooting, so I am very familiar with it. Secondly I am very comfortable with a handgun, 90% of my smokeless powder shooting and hunting is done with a handgun. Lastly carrying a pistol when you are moving, especially in rough terrain, or in darkness requires two hands and a slung rifle is still not as convienient as a holstered pistol.

I choose a wheelgun because, well because even though I have and use a number of semi-auto pistols, I am a wheel gun man. I believe they are inherently more reliable.

The reason for the .22 is most of my larger caliber weapons I use for other purposes and do not wish them to be in the vehicle constantly, if I feel the need for something larger I can take it along. Secondly, for food gathering it is a useful cartridge, well able to at reasonable ranges take most North American game, it is after all the most popular poachers caliber. Next is light weight of ammunition. As anyone how has hiked or backpacked can say, every ounce counts.

What do you think?


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Lee

LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
 
V.Oller

V.Oller

Joined
Nov 30, 1999
Messages
423
I tend to agree with you. To me every "survival" kit should be taylored to both an individual and/or situation/area one might likely be in. So a handgun would be fine, since you practice regularly and you are familiar with the weapon.

For a general purpose kit I would personaly go with one of the AR-7's or the Springfield Armory Survival rifle/shotgun combos. Altho Savage makes some combo guns too. You are correct in that a shoulder weapon is easier and more accurate under stress. You are also less likely to waste ammunition that might be hard to replace afterward.

Just my humble opinion.
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Stay sharp and be safe
 
I remember the first backpacking trip I took by myself. I brought a Buck multi-tool, a 5 inch fixed blade, the flavor-of-the-month tactical folder and a mid sized mag light. I had this unreasonable fear of meeting disagreeable people on the trail (a la Deliverance). Well, after much more experience and a lot of time spent in the woods I have never once met anyone even remotely violent. Now days I carry just a Swiss army knife, or maybe the BuckTool. Seriously, you do not need a gun unless you are headed for the Congo or some other remote location infested with para- military Rambo wannabees. And in that case bringing a .22 revolver is just gonna give them one more excuse to kill ya.

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An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
 
I have to disagree with Granite about the need for a firearm. I think it is much better to have it and not use it then to need it and not have it. People do get attacked by two legged as well as four legged creatures while hiking and camping.

One of the guys that works on my PD had a cousin who was attacked by a man while hiking. I think she might have been on the AT. Her and her friend were attacked and one of them was killed. I can't remember which one it was. The man shot at them with a .22 caliber firearm. He may have also used a knife on them as well. If I had been in that situation it would have been nice to know I had the ability to defend my friend and myself.

I would say if you are going to carry a firearm carry something you are going to stay proficient with and not mind lugging around. For me it is my Glock 30 .45. Is it the best gun for all situations? No but I am proficient with it and have no problem taking it where ever I want to go. It also is pretty near indestructable so I am not afraid of damaging it while hiking or canoeing.

Just my thoughts.

Decado
 
I would have to say that the inclusion of any firearm is better to no firearm at all times. I prefer having a larger one as much as possible but of course, this is not always possible.

I did have .22 handguns, but I didn't find any that I liked well enough to rely on for a suvival kit. Among them were a Ruger Single Six, a Lorcin semiauto, and a High Standard Victor. Picky, aren't I?!?
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Of the three, I'd say the Single Six probably would have been the best choice, but I "hate" single actions!

Currently my top choices are Ruger 10/22's as I have an ample supply of them in different configurations. A folding stock makes them compact.

A good bolt action Marlin is a good choice if one did some modifications like shortening the extremely long barrel. Also, having a quick takedown mainscrew is beneficial...This is a project I would like to finish, but don't like the thought of cutting the barrel on my FAVORITE .22!
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Carry whatever you can, but I definitely agree with carrying a firearm in a kit is a good idea!

As others have said, "Better to have and not need, than need and not have!"



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Plainsman :)
primitiveguy@hotmail.com

You use what you have on you, then you improvise! :)
 
Hmmm...First off, I can see the extra security a gun might bring, but on the trail, where are you going to be carrying it? For example, lets take the AT: on most of the trail it is illegal to carry a gun, so if you carry one it would probably have to be hidden. If you hide it in your back pack then it wont do you much good when you meet the bad guy on the trail. And how are you going to hide it on your person when you have the shoulder straps, sternum strap and waist belt of your pack to contend with? It would make it tricky. But lets say you have all that figured out and you have it tucked inside the waist belt somehow. It is still going to be uncomfortable and heavy and even more illegal. Then, if you ever do get into a gun fight you will also have to remember that if he shoots you or you shoot him it's a long way to the hospital. But really, all of this seems foolish to me. If someone wants to rob you of your gear, let them have it, they are going to have to carry it out. And besides that, very very few crimes are commited on the trail. Many more hikers are rescued because of injuries and weather related problems. I really can't believe that those who think they need a gun to defend themselves on the trail do a lot of backpacking. Remember, if someone is after you can always drop your pack and run; hide in the woods. Well, to each his own. I dont feel the need for a gun for self defense, but if someone else does that's their choice.

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An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
 
When I go backpacking I don't take a gun with me. Perhaps if I had a CCW I would, but in all the times I have been out in the woods there is not one where a gun would have be of any benefit, except maybe for some entertainment. However if I were going to I would want a Ti Smith and Wesson 22 airlight revolver.
 
I always carry a firearm on my person so my belief is that, "the best survival firearm is the one you have with you." My personal preference for a "kit gun" would be something in a simple .22 LR, light, reliable, easily maintained and rugged. Sounds like a Ruger 10/22 to me.
 
I feel that as a survival tool, guns are not worth their weight. Active hunting is nowhere near as effective as passive hunting, and it takes away from time I have to do other tasks.

As a defensive tool, you make the choice. Base it on your fears of people and animals, and how much that fear is worth in weight you pack. If I were going backcountry here in Alaska, I would carry a side-arm. And it wouldn't be a .22. Being who I am, it'd probably be a wheel gun, and it would definately have a large enough barrel to fit one of my fingers inside it...
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Stryver, who's been pondering bear-defense weaponry...
 
Oh thats right, I agree without reservation.
Leave all the nasty guns at home, you have no need of them. After all what could happen right? How stupid. Anyone who travels into the woods, backcountry, hinterlands, whatever, without the means to defend themselves is volunteering to be a victim, period.This goes double for those of us who travel alone in the woods. Has anything ever happened to me. Nope. Could it? You bet. I don't have a crystal ball and unless you do, you might consider taking the small effort required to arm yourself for personal defense.When people ask me why I carry a gun most everywhere I go I answer with one word,
Luby's. If that means nothing to you then how about this,do you wait till your home is burning down to purchase fire insurance?Does the concept of self reliance mean anything to you? How about preparedness? I can't fathom how someone reading this BBS would question the utility of a firearm in the wilderness.Amazing!


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"How do I stop this thing?"
 
Granite,
I think you are looking at this too narrowly. There are many other uses for a firearm than self-defense. It beats the heck out of any whistle for signaling distress. It is an excellent source of obtaining food. Gun powder can be used to make fires. (Be careful though.) It's not just the two legged animals that you need to fear either. Have I ever had to use it to defend myself from anything in the woods? No, but I have read enough to know that it is a possibility. A lot of what this forum is about is what to do when the unexpected happens. I grew up around firearms and have always viewed them as a tool. Just like my knife, I would feel like I was ill prepared if I went into the woods without a firearm. I doubt that we will change your mind, but I respect your opinion. Doc Mac, I don't think I could say it any better than your post. What Susan Gratia (sp) said about leaving her gun in the car and having to watch her parents die next to her, spoke volumes.
Anyway, as I have posted elsewhere about survival firearms, I always have my S&W 686 .357 on my hip when I plan a trip into the woods. I bring a mixture of ammo, including shot shells for small game. In my pack I also carry an American Arms P-98 .22 semi-auto. In my car I keep my S&W 645 .45 auto stoked with 230 grain Hydra-Shocks. I live way out in the sticks and it is always below zero around here. When I see someone stranded on the side of the road, I always stop to help. The one precaution I take, is to drive well past them, get out my .45, and put it in my waistband. I do it in a way as to not cause undo alarm. I then drive back and see if they need help. While being illegal, I go by the old adage of judged by twelve rather than carried by six. As with any survival equipment, it's of no use to you if you don't have it. Therefore, a small .22 pistol/revolver or AR7 Explorer (made by Henry now) would be best for out in the backcountry.

Take care, (AND a big knife)
Jim

 
Granite... I really have to disagree with your stance on just giving up your gear simply because it is demanded of you under threat of force. It is a galling enough situation to consider when you are within the confines of civilization. At least there, should you be unharmed, all you have to do is cancel your cc numbers and report it to the police. In the wilderness, giving up your gear could very easily be signing your own death warrant. My personal view is that if someone tries to pull this C#%p on me, we're going to find out just how badly he wants my stuff. As for carrying a gun and getting involved in a firefight, well I think that the possibility is thankfully a rather remote one. However, the maxim of better to have and not need being far more preferable to needing and not having, is a very good one to live by... especially when you are out in the wilderness. Besides personal defense, isn't a pretty universal distress call, 3 shots into the air? A signal like that would carry quite a long way.
 
Granite... I really have to disagree with your stance on just giving up your gear simply because it is demanded of you under threat of force. It is a galling enough situation to consider when you are within the confines of civilization. At least there, should you be unharmed, all you have to do is cancel your cc numbers and report it to the police. In the wilderness, giving up your gear could very easily be signing your own death warrant. My personal view is that if someone tries to pull this C#%p on me, we're going to find out just how badly he wants my stuff. As for carrying a gun and getting involved in a firefight, well I think that the possibility is thankfully a rather remote one. However, the maxim of better to have and not need being far more preferable to needing and not having, is a very good one to live by... especially when you are out in the wilderness. Besides personal defense, isn't a pretty universal distress call, 3 shots into the air? A signal like that would carry quite a long way.

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When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

 
Wait a minute,
First of all, I'd like to say I wasn't trying to make anyone angry- just state my opinion. Also, I agree a gun is a good survival tool in the sense that if I was in a plane crash in the wilderness I would want one. I totally agree that in remote locations where you are going to be hunting for food or planning on staying for any real length of time a gun would be recomended. But I was not talking about any of these situations because I have never been in them or planned for them. The only thing I was writing about was the practicality of taking a gun on a backpacking trip on a trail like the AT. Now, on most of the AT it is illegal and very impractical to plan on hunting for your food, so the only reason I would think for having a gun is for self defense. That was the issue I was addressing. One more thing, since I carry a lighter or metal match, compass, map and SAk in my pocket at all times while hiking I feel that I could give a thief my money and backpack and still survive. I would not be "signing my own death warrent". Ya'll should get out and do some backpacking, read some true stories writen by AT thru-hikers, talk to backpackers on the trail. You will find that almost no one carries a gun, nor have they felt the need for one.

 
I have first hand experience using my handgun and rifle for self defense. It was on the Kobuk river in Alaska a couple of years ago. Some of the local dopers decided to charge a trespass fee to all the float hunters on the river. My partener and I entered the main river about 5:30,and after scouting a long gravel bar we noticed a camp across the river from us.We decided to flaot a few bends down river then make camp. When we went past the above mentioned camp, two men with guns asked us very rudely to stop . When we lifted our rifles in reply , they made a hasty retreat. All in all they robbed at gunpoint 4 different camps, before a state trooper was flown in with an m-14 to arrest them..

[This message has been edited by budman (edited 01-05-2000).]
 
I got this from the May '98 edition of Backpacker Magazine; it's not as off topic as it may seem.

"June 5, 1973. Emma 'Grandma' Gatewood dies at age 85. She started hiking at 65 and did the Appalachian Trail end-to-end three times wearing sneakers and carrying a duffel over he shoulder. About her gear-crazed brethren she commented, 'Most..are panty-waists.' "

There's a lesson here for all of us.

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An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
 
Tools are tools. Small bores are made for killing small game, or for putting holes in paper. Large bores are made for killing large game, or people.

Hunting small game with a fire arm in a survival situation is a time-consuming prospect with less chance of success than, say, setting snares. It is heavier to carry than snare wire, and more likely to fail.

Hunting large game in a survival situation is insane. Long-term primitive living, another question entirely. A large bore pistol for personal protection is a question of personal preference. There are many places where it is illegal, and many where it is not. But taking a large bore handgun with the idea that it can be an all-purpose tool is silly. If you have a gun, you could use it to start a fire, just like you could use the case of a computer for a stove, but I'd carry neither with that idea. Neither would I carry a gun with the idea of using it to signal distress, not that this is an invalid use, merely that it is not a good reason alone to carry a gun.

If you feel unsafe without a gun, then carry a gun, and be aware of the legalities. Many places will be more upset about a gun in the pack than a gun on your waist.

But don't carry a handgun with the idea it will be your ultimate survival tool. It is a good tool of choice to shoot things with, and a poor tool of choice for most everything else.


Stryver, who'd prefer to spend the weight on a camera...
 
For me carrying a gun is a fact of life. I do so every day and fell naked with out one. I am not a gun nut by any means, I only own four, but I am a police officer and a firearms instructor so carrying a gun is second nature to me.

Early in my career I was involved in a situation where I responded with other officers to a scene where a man was threatening suicide with a firearm. At the time I was wearing shorts a tank top and sneakers and had no weapon on me. I had been in the office doing paperwork when I took the call. From this incident it has become my personal belief that it is better to have the gun and not need it then to need it and not have it.

A friend and I were bird hunting one day when we were confronted by a very angry black bear. We spent a minute or so listening to the bear growl at us before it ambled off into the woods. Had it decided to attack I would have much rather shot it with my Glock .45 than with my 12 gague full of birdshot.

These are just two situations I have experienced where I wished I had a firearm on me and was glad I did have a firearm.

To Granite and the others who do not wish to carry a gun I say that is your choice and nobody should be angry with you for making the choice that you do.

Decado (the rambler)
 
I agree that carrying a firearm in a survival kit is a personal preference and no one should be critiqed for carrying or not carrying. I personally favor firearms as a weapon of opportunity. I very often carry a firearm (usually a handgun) when in the woods. I almost always carry completely concealed to maintain low profile. I've had my CCW for 18 years. My purpose in carrying a firearm is much the same as carrying survival supplies: for contingency use as needed.In fact, I view firearms as just another survival tool (albeit,one with much greater responsibility). What I carry is a matter of degree again similar to what survival kit or supplies I choose to carry on any given excursion. Just as I choose to add or detract survival kits based upon the jaunt in question so to do I add or subtract weapons. If taking a quick family hike in a local preserve I don't usually carry any firearm. If I believe dogs(domestic) may be loose or an issue I'll bring pepper spray, a hiking staff and, of course, some type of blade. A longer family hike or camping trip often means a handgun. Now understand that I don't live in a state of constant worry about attack by animals or people, but neither do I worry about being in a survival situation. I just always live by the old Boy Scout motto "Be Prepared" whatever being prepared means for the situation or scenario I may be facing (its funny, but I didn't seem to retain the "Brave, Clean, and Reverent" bit
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). When a firearm is with me it brings along a huge responsibility,Sooo.. I always have the weapon under my control or inaccessible to anyone but me. The guys I camp with sometimes carry and sometimes don't. They all express comfort in knowing that I almost always have something with me for unpleasant circumstances. Now in 18 years of carrying a weapon I have only needed to use one several times and have been comforted by having one with me many times. I have dispatched one car wounded deer and one dying porcupine. I have three times had a handgun with me in close encounters with coyotes where I (and those with me) were very glad I was prepared. I have numerous times shot grouse and rabbit for camp meat because I had a weapon handy when the opportunity presented itself. I and others in my party(ies) have used firearms for signalling more times than I can recount. Lastly, in those settings where it was legal and appropriate, my sidearms have entertained thru plinking. I have children and a non-shooting wife, so my need for safety in carrying and storage is very great and I make
adjustments accordingly. I have sought and received professional training and practice as often as my responsibilities allow. I ALWAYS weigh likely need against responsibility when deciding if and what to carry.

There, those are my thoughts on the subject. That and a $1.50 will buy you a cup of coffee most anywhere in the U.S. (size of coffee may vary)
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John
 
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