umnum test from poland

Cotherion said:
Conclusion:
1) In cases where the tester hyper extends the lockbar then the lockbar is severely affected. I know, I hyper extended my Kershaw Shallot (I was young/stupid:)) cause it seems the lockbar was in very deep (Shallot owners speak up :)) but it was normal. My hyper extension to reduce the travel resulted in something like a slip joint. Tester compares to Sebbie which in normal circumstances is fair but he/she did not previously hyper extend the Sebbie. I know cause he/she had no reason to since Sebbie had no bb for him/her to investigate.

2) BB wearing a groove in the tang is (for now in my assumption) neither a good or bad thing. Though increase wear can create a channel but the increased contact area is also a result. My titanium framelocks have a long life with the soft (softer than bb) titanium so I can expect longer life with Umnum. And instead of carbidizing (spelling?) the lockface, CR incorporates a bb which is smoother and more consistent in contact point/area so to ensure consistency. The gauging (in polish test) does not mean anything since I remember seeing a ti framelock failure (in extreme tests) where the framelock contact area to tang was sheared off in extreme loads/impacts. I prefer a bb induced channel compared ot shearing of lockbar face.

Final Conclusion: I am unsure :(
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1. Does really hyper extension makes some big difference? I mean lockingbar is a spring, a few mm beyond tha basic position should not cause malfunction, spring tension should be so big that without blade, lockbar would travel to the other frame every time.
I don't own a Ti framelock, but all my linerlocks almost all the way to the other frame.

2. In my opinion BB groving a channel or detent in tang face is much worse than titanium lockbar wear. Such wear is gradual, and frame travels a bit more with wear but area of contact is maintained.
With groove or detent, ball will be sliding of the tang face INTO the detent, which causes BP, which lead to more wear and possible damage/failure.
 
on_the_edge said:
Cotherion,
A scientifically proven cause of lock failure on that Umnumzaan may never be a reality, and in all likelihood, it won't. Even knowing without a doubt what the cause of the lock failure was, you may then question whether there are other things that would cause a lock failure, and you may question if you yourself would ever do something to cause a lock failure. Those are all valid concerns at this point, and they are all unknowns. There is a known here though, a guarantee that "should" put your mind at rest:

Get one. Try it out. Play with it. Use it in whatever way you ordinarily use a knife. Maybe try to push its limits a little. See if it instills confidence in you. See if you grow to like or love it. Here's the guarantee part--if you don't want, need, like, or love it, if you have not damaged it, you can sell it for most of your initial outlay. It happens every day on the X and you can do that too if that is your wish. You may be out $40, but you most certainly won't be out $400. Is $40 too high a price for admission, where you can satisfy yourself and make up your own mind?
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Very true. I see Zaans and Sebbies getting resale value of around 80-90% of the original cost. It is reassuring to know that.

There will always be factors unconsidered or left out. But one test is the test of time. Owners of Zaans will sound out if there is something (if any) wrong in the future and these "tests" are the most relevant ones there is.
 
Cotherion said:
...
There will always be factors unconsidered or left out. But one test is the test of time. Owners of Zaans will sound out if there is something (if any) wrong in the future and these "tests" are the most relevant ones there is.
Click to expand...

I agree.

I wouldn't base any decisions on one test. I would be interested in hearing about the collective experiences of owners. These are the people whose uses would be similar to mine. To be honest I don't think I would ever break any knife let alone a CRK and yeah its nice to know what punishment a knife can take but in the end if it will last me 25+ years with the way I use it then it'll be money well spent. JMO.
 
Odds said:
. . . . .but in the end if it will last me 25+ years with the way I use it then it'll be money well spent. JMO.
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Well said.

I was gifted a slipjoint, after my grandfather passed away. The knife is well over 65 years old and still going strong. The Sebbie and Umnumzaan are tanks when compared to the old, trusty slipjoint. I have no doubt my Sebbies and Umnumzaan will outlast me. :D
 
idaho said:
1. Does really hyper extension makes some big difference? I mean lockingbar is a spring, a few mm beyond tha basic position should not cause malfunction, spring tension should be so big that without blade, lockbar would travel to the other frame every time.
I don't own a Ti framelock, but all my linerlocks almost all the way to the other frame.

2. In my opinion BB groving a channel or detent in tang face is much worse than titanium lockbar wear. Such wear is gradual, and frame travels a bit more with wear but area of contact is maintained.
With groove or detent, ball will be sliding of the tang face INTO the detent, which causes BP, which lead to more wear and possible damage/failure.
Click to expand...

1. Yup. It made a difference in my Shallot. Became almost like slip joint.

2. Not so sure. Having a hard enough time visualizing things without one in my hands. Anyone willing to sponsor :)

My opinion regarding this now is a little different. Conventional titanium lockbars which are touching on the tips (like striders) will have increasing contact area over time because of wear.

I like to see what happens in the future when a zaan owner constantly opens/closes. My guess is the bb will eventually wear into tang then the titanium lockbar's turn to wear... becoming a normal (somewhat) conventional framelock. It only a guess at this point.

Only way to truly know is to wait and see/read future comments if it's anything close to what I'm guessing.
 
Cotherion said:
I like to see what happens in the future when a zaan owner constantly opens/closes. My guess is the bb will eventually wear into tang then the titanium lockbar's turn to wear... becoming a normal (somewhat) conventional framelock. It only a guess at this point.
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I don't think the titanium lockbar can reach the tang, it already locks up pretty far with the ceramic ball there.
 
tf8s said:
I don't think the titanium lockbar can reach the tang, it already locks up pretty far with the ceramic ball there.
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When I mean "wear to tang" I mean the bb wears a channel till a point in time when the titanium touches tang. Which is not impossible I think.

I would not put much emphasis on the polish test unless they address the hyper extension issue and...
 
Cotherion said:
When I mean "wear to tang" I mean the bb wears a channel till a point in time when the titanium touches tang. Which is not impossible I think.
Click to expand...

LMAO, i don't think you have to worry about that scenario in this life time :D
 
Cotherion said:
When I mean "wear to tang" I mean the bb wears a channel till a point in time when the titanium touches tang. Which is not impossible I think.

I would not put much emphasis on the polish test unless they address the hyper extension issue and...
Click to expand...

If that happens there will be enough vertical bladeplay you won't likely use it.
 
Well for now I know someone who got a Zaan for a year and a half thereabouts (bigmark408) and has been trying to wear it down. Actually I feel quite ok with it now and will commence my fishing for a Zaan. After my budget recuperates from paying the "Ambitious Folder" (Titanium folder with one piece handle from Italy) that is...
 
Remember that we are not talking about a knife designed by someone who does it as a hobby and starting dabbling last year. Chris Reeve knows more about knives than nearly anyone here, I would think. The bigger issue in the Umnumzaan vs. Sebenza issue is probably just the ergonomics. In other words, almost a repeat of the Classic/21 vs. Regular question. Personally, I think access to the thumblug and lockbar on the Umnu could be more generous, but CR obviously thinks there are merits to that, or he wouldn't have redesigned the original Sebenza to the Regular model, and wouldn't have designed the Umnu as he did. What do I know, I'm just a user :D ;)
 
So someone torture tested a Zaan and it failed, big whoop. How many hundreds of these knives are currently floating around out there.... how many of those have failed? Probably none, because they are being used in the tasks that most people use their folders for: opening boxes, slicing cheese, opening envelopes and cutting the tags off their new clothes. :rolleyes:

Personally I think we should get Lynn Thompson to test it.... now there's a guy who knows a thing or two about testing knives.
 
Buffalohump said:
So someone torture tested a Zaan and it failed, big whoop. How many hundreds of these knives are currently floating around out there.... how many of those have failed? Probably none, because they are being used in the tasks that most people use their folders for: opening boxes, slicing cheese, opening envelopes and cutting the tags off their new clothes. :rolleyes:

Personally I think we should get Lynn Thompson to test it.... now there's a guy who knows a thing or two about testing knives.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't even say it failed. the lock bar was hyper extended, which invalidates the entire test, since the knife wasn't at 100% when being tested.
 
I guess I missed the point of the vid...Someone want to clue me in?
 
Hi guys, I think I might be helpful. If my english will handle it:)

1.Test purpose
Test might seem a bit abusive for many, but the purpose of it was not only to test the knife but mainly to test new solutions used in this design. Of course that most of these knives won't see such kind of use but there is also possibility that such a test can show performance of a knife after years of constant but typical use - and that would show us benefits from innovative solutions.

2. Potential reasons of a lock failure
I will relate to this post by STR:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7691387&postcount=91
Because I personally think that it's the most coherent one and sums it all up pretty well.

Potential reasons for a fail of lock:
-shock of impact connected with mud, water, oil form washers etc. in the lock - well, knife was cleaned, so there was no mud, maybe water and oil - but this and only this can't be a sole thing responsible - Sebenza after such treatment do well, also Tenacious as you can see on a video and so on
-what above + overextension of the lock (being investigated, maybe there would be also some video, personally I don't know), I think that maybe a stopping disk for a frame lock could be helpful and easily prevent overextending

And I'll add two another reasons:
-fail of this one particular knife (being investigated)
-fail of the design - maybe too much wear due to ceramic ball, but it's too early to draw conclusions

3. Further to check
So now when oil & dirt is checked it's about:
-whether only overextension can be a reason
-overextension with oil, water and so on added
That can be checked on other frame locks or as well - another Umnumzaan.
Then it's about one knife accident or a design.

If overextended dirty Umnumzaan will perform good, then it's a time for another round of harsh tests - lock fails similarily - means yours will do that also but, let say, after ten years of use, while Sebbie would have lasted 20+, otherwise it was only an accident and shouldn't be taken into consideration.
I don't know if such tests will be performed and so on, maybe someone from here can also try that - overextend - check - make it wet/use some oil - check. Additional data could be helpful.

4. Present status
BUT - at now procedures are not ended, what you're getting here are some glimpses of what is being done or what has been done in the past and with no proper background these information are useless for you - so please - ignore them. Without reading a thread on knives.pl which is waaay bigger than that one - there is no point. There was NO intention of releasing this info outside on this stage.

There will be given an official (from the forum as a whole) summary and explanation in this thread but in the end when everything will be clear. Till this very moment - everything you may see may be taken out of context and simply useless for you - so please do not judge it lightly as we do not judge lightly Umnumzaan.
 
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