Attention UPDATED EXCHANGE RULES

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craytab said:
That is a dick move. You are essentially dictating how you want a sellers ad to read, removing the choice of the seller to leave the price or not. As it says in the rules, it is the sellers choice. Do that in my sales thread not only will you not get the item. I will ask a mod to remove the price you selfishly quoted.
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All because you don't want people to know what you sold it for.....kind of stupid.
 
Great changes Mods !! It's about time sellers where upfront with costs and will be held responsible for the delivery of the item, not this, once it's out of my hands not my problem BS.
I have never had any issues myself but excellent changes to BF policy. Thanks Mods.
 
Leebotheblue said:
All fair and clear rules.

Seller's who don't take responsibility for delivering the item don't understand the basics of the exchange. I sell an item. You give me money and/or goods in exchange for my item including shipping cost. I'm responsible for providing you the item, or in this case shipping the item. If they don't get the item, the exchange isn't complete. I still owe them the item. I wouldn't buy from someone who didn't promise to deliver what I paid for.

Protection for the seller is easy, signature confirmation and insurance.
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completely agree with this post!
 
Tazz-ab said:
Great changes Mods !! It's about time sellers where upfront with costs and will be held responsible for the delivery of the item, not this, once it's out of my hands not my problem BS.
I have never had any issues myself but excellent changes to BF policy. Thanks Mods.
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I actually think it's a gray area as to liability when the knife is transit - and this is where BF mod's clarification is helpful.

Suppose the buyer sends funds, and then the seller faithfully wraps the product up in nice bubble wrap, puts the correct address on the package, and then pays (and trusts) a delivery service to deliver the package. It seems like both parties have done their jobs.

But any number of things can go wrong, some malicious and some just unfortunate:
(1) Seller could claim to have shipped a package but not done so (and maybe even invented a tracking number)
(2) Buyer could receive a package but claim he didn't
(3) A package could legitimately get lost by the delivery service

How to address these?

Mods' clarification in the rules and earlier in this thread indicate (at least to my read of it) that they hold the seller responsible, so the seller should purchase insurance on all deliveries, and -- in the event of 1, 2, 3, or something else -- is responsible for returning funds to the buyer and dealing with the insurance claims process. In the event that the seller doesn't return funds, the buyer can complain here on BF and seek compensation from Paypal. For any one bad transaction, the delivery insurance or PP's G&S insurance should make both parties whole. In the long term, a scamming buyer or seller should be discovered by the BF community, by PayPal, and/or by the PO and hopefully prosecuted.

Even so, one final bad scenario to contemplate is this: Seller ships with insurance. PO says they delivered the item. Buyer says he never got it (maybe he did and he lies, maybe someone stole it from his porch). Now seller doesn't have a knife, buyer claims he doesn't have a knife, and PO says they did their job by delivering the package and so insurance doesn't kick in. Then what? It seems like someone has to be the default party to pay up, and mods are indicating that it's the seller.
 
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dyavorsky said:
I actually think it's a gray area as to liability when the knife is transit - and this is where BF mod's clarification is helpful.

Suppose the buyer sends funds, and then the seller faithfully wraps the product up in nice bubble wrap, puts the correct address on the package, and then pays (and trusts) a delivery service to deliver the package. It seems like both parties have done their jobs.

But any number of things can go wrong, some malicious and some just unfortunate:
(1) Seller could claim to have shipped a package but not done so (and maybe even invented a tracking number)
(2) Buyer could receive a package but claim he didn't
(3) A package could legitimately get lost by the delivery service

How to address these?

Mods' clarification in the rules and earlier in this thread indicate (at least to my read of it) that they hold the seller responsible, so the seller should purchase insurance on all deliveries, and -- in the event of 1, 2, 3, or something else -- is responsible for returning funds to the buyer and dealing with the insurance claims process. In the event that the seller doesn't return funds, the buyer can complain here on BF and seek compensation from Paypal. For any one bad transaction, the delivery insurance or PP's G&S insurance should make both parties whole. In the long term, a scamming buyer or seller should be discovered by the BF community, by PayPal, and/or by the PO and hopefully prosecuted.

Even so, one final bad scenario to contemplate is this: Seller ships with insurance. PO says they delivered the item. Buyer says he never got it (maybe he did and he lies, maybe someone stole it from his porch). Now seller doesn't have a knife, buyer claims he doesn't have a knife, and PO says they did their job by delivering the package and so insurance doesn't kick in. Then what?
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The new rules set a basic structure how of things should be, they dont dictate fault in everything that can happen in a transaction.

The scenarios you mention are rare occurances and should be treated on a case by case basis. If the two parties cant come to a conclusion then they can state their case in the GBU or to a mod for help finding a resolution.
 
dyavorsky said:
I actually think it's a gray area as to liability when the knife is transit - and this is where BF mod's clarification is helpful.

Suppose the buyer sends funds, and then the seller faithfully wraps the product up in nice bubble wrap, puts the correct address on the package, and then pays (and trusts) a delivery service to deliver the package. It seems like both parties have done their jobs.

But any number of things can go wrong, some malicious and some just unfortunate:
(1) Seller could claim to have shipped a package but not done so (and maybe even invented a tracking number)
(2) Buyer could receive a package but claim he didn't
(3) A package could legitimately get lost by the delivery service

How to address these?

Mods' clarification in the rules and earlier in this thread indicate (at least to my read of it) that they hold the seller responsible, so the seller should purchase insurance on all deliveries, and -- in the event of 1, 2, 3, or something else -- is responsible for returning funds to the buyer and dealing with the insurance claims process. In the event that the seller doesn't return funds, the buyer can complain here on BF and seek compensation from Paypal. For any one bad transaction, the delivery insurance or PP's G&S insurance should make both parties whole. In the long term, a scamming buyer or seller should be discovered by the BF community, by PayPal, and/or by the PO and hopefully prosecuted.

Even so, one final bad scenario to contemplate is this: Seller ships with insurance. PO says they delivered the item. Buyer says he never got it (maybe he did and he lies, maybe someone stole it from his porch). Now seller doesn't have a knife, buyer claims he doesn't have a knife, and PO says they did their job by delivering the package and so insurance doesn't kick in. Then what? It seems like someone has to be the default party to pay up, and mods are indicating that it's the seller.
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This has happened to me a few times over the years with people I knew that was purchasing from me. (all of these transactions were honest) USPS failed to pay any of the claims, no matter what I said or did to prove it. Why should I as the seller have to eat the loss according to BF rules ?, especially if the knife or any other item was several hundred dollars or more. That's a lot of money any seller would lose. I'm sure others wouldn't like it if that happened to them as the seller. Just my thoughts.

For the last few months I've been adding signature confirmation to all packages. I want to see if that helps down the road with USPS if I need to file a claim.
 
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High Standard said:
This has happened to me a few times over the years with people I knew that was purchasing from me. (all of these transactions were honest) USPS failed to pay any of the claims, no matter what I said or did to prove it. Why should I as the seller have to eat the loss according to BF rules ?, especially if the knife or any other item was several hundred dollars or more. That's a lot of money any seller would lose. I'm sure others wouldn't like it if that happened to them as the seller. Just my thoughts.

For the last few months I've been adding signature confirmation to all packages. I want to see if that helps down the road with USPS if I need to file a claim.
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Because of these complex scenarios of package loss, most public forum buyers use PayPal and agree to let them arbitrate. While it’s not always in favor of the seller, it may be better than having two strangers arguing with each other.
 
WatermanChris said:
I always have removed the price because that was how it was done on my first handful of purchases. I figured it was done to prevent people from thinking they could still buy something that was already sold. E.I. If there's a price there, it's for sale.

Many people don't actually read the entire ad and will hastily post or send PMs if they see something they're after with a decent price.

With that being said, I will change the way I do it from now on. I typically post my price (always including paypal fees, insurance and shipping) in bolded red and then update the SPF or SOLD in that font. On future deals, I will continue to do that but I will also put the sold for or asking price (in the case of a multiple knives package) in italics for future reference.

I think the package deals is where it gets complicated as if I have 2 knives posted, one for $150 and one for $250, and I let them go to one buyer for $375 because it saves me having to mail 2 separate packages, what was the "selling price" or "value" of those knives?

People have contacted me in the past and I've contacted others regarding knives sold and everyone has been very open regarding prices so that is always a viable option.

Sorry mods if this is off topic.
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Thanks for the explanation and the offer to change what you have been doing in the past. From what I've seen as a very aggressive buyer these past few months, the practice of removing the price from the ad after the item is sold is simply a habit and that there really is no need to do it. However, it seems the habit is changing and your willingness to do so, is evidence of that.

Change is difficult for some people but, FWIW, I've noticed that this practice has been changing and have seen ads by sellers where they just leave the price for the item (in single or multiple item sales) and somehow shade and line it through w/SPF or SOLD inserted next to the price. Don't know how they do it, but it can be done. Others, as you do, just insert SPF or SOLD in bold or red elsewhere in the ad.

So, change can occur. It just takes a collective will to do so. I'm admittedly new here and have not researched the prior "debate" on this topic but, as it stands, it apparently is the seller's choice whether to remove the listed price or not and, given Mr. Crabtab's objections, I don't think sellers like him would take kindly to being "required" to leave the price in when they want to remove it. So, be it.

However, if more sellers like you see that there is no reason why the price should be removed from an ad, then fewer will do it and a new "habit" will be established that will better inform the knife buying community here. That is/was my only reason for suggesting it here where the moderators who recently changed the Exchange rules could see and reconsider the matter for a possible additional change in those rules.

I too apologize if this matter is considered off topic. I've had my say and have nothing more to say about it. EOM.
 
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High Standard said:
This has happened to me a few times over the years with people I knew that was purchasing from me. (all of these transactions were honest) USPS failed to pay any of the claims, no matter what I said or did to prove it. Why should I as the seller have to eat the loss according to BF rules ?, especially if the knife or any other item was several hundred dollars or more. That's a lot of money any seller would lose. I'm sure others wouldn't like it if that happened to them as the seller. Just my thoughts.

For the last few months I've been adding signature confirmation to all packages. I want to see if that helps down the road with USPS if I need to file a claim.
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It's not a bf rule. Sellers no matter the business are responsible for getting the item to the buyer. Until the buyer has an item it is still owned by the seller. It's your responsibility.
 
High Standard said:
This has happened to me a few times over the years with people I knew that was purchasing from me. (all of these transactions were honest) USPS failed to pay any of the claims, no matter what I said or did to prove it. Why should I as the seller have to eat the loss according to BF rules ?, especially if the knife or any other item was several hundred dollars or more. That's a lot of money any seller would lose. I'm sure others wouldn't like it if that happened to them as the seller. Just my thoughts.
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It's also a lot of money the buyer would lose. Why should the buyer be out money, sent in good faith, and nothing shows up? I agree, that on the surface, neither situation seems fair. Most of us are not big online retailers, but are just fellow hobbyists buying, selling, trading a few knives here and there.
But the seller is the one responsible for delivering the product. He packs the item, chooses the carrier, can purchase signature required or even registered mail options. And he can choose to buy insurance, or self insure.
 
stonesell said:
Because of these complex scenarios of package loss, most public forum buyers use PayPal and agree to let them arbitrate. While it’s not always in favor of the seller, it may be better than having two strangers arguing with each other.
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I agree with you about 2 people arguing. Unfortunately, Paypal doesn't do anything for the seller. I just don't want to see a decline of many great knives for sale for reasonable prices on the exchange if the sellers are forced to keep eating the loss. Time will tell.
 
craytab said:
It's not a bf rule. Sellers no matter the business are responsible for getting the item to the buyer. Until the buyer has an item it is still owned by the seller. It's your responsibility.
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Disagree. If both parties fulfilled their respectful contractual agreement, and the package was lost or stolen, It's not the sellers responsibility to eat the cost.
 
This has become one of the most entertaining threads I've ever read here on BF. I am blown away by some of the post/discussions here with everything from insurance to how we ship to all over the map. The elimination of the net to me/% requirements posted by some sellers
#1 stops the theft of PayPal services by some of our members
#2 offers a great protection policy to the buyer.
#3 F&F has no recourse for the buyer and using it for purchases is theft the same as walking into a store and taking merchandise without paying for it.
If you are so concerned about insurance and making sure the buyer receives the knife just list the knife for an extra $10 add the insurance and require a signature. If you are afraid this will cause you to lose a sell eat the $10 (or less) or add OBRO to your thread.
This subject has been discussed ad-nauseam over the years to a point mods were posting things like "not another PayPal discussion". We as a whole have complained about this for years and when Spark and the mods do something about it we have to dissect it under a microscope just trying to find something wrong instead of being thankful that the problem so many of us have railed against for years has been fixed.
One final thought if I were unhappy with how the Exchange works I simply would not buy or sell there.
I know some of you may be offended by this post but it's my opinion I certainly don't wish to ruffle any feathers but again it's my opinion.
 
craytab said:
It's not a bf rule. Sellers no matter the business are responsible for getting the item to the buyer. Until the buyer has an item it is still owned by the seller. It's your responsibility.
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Yup. People pay for an item, not a trip to the post office. Once you have their money, it's on you to deliver their item. I suspect that's very clear to everyone in this thread if a package from Amazon doesn't make it to them, yet it becomes somehow vastly more complicated when they're the one selling.
 
High Standard said:
Disagree. If both parties fulfilled their respectful contractual agreement, and the package was lost or stolen, It's not the sellers responsibility to eat the cost.
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So... you're saying if you bought, lets just say a toaster, from any online place (Amazon, Ebay, Lowe's, etc. I'm sure you get the idea) and it didn't show up and they say they sent it and show tracking info, that you would be OK with them keeping your money? No way. Nobody would. It's the sellers responsibility, period. Always has been and always will be.
It's your responsibility to buy the insurance or self insure. Just add the price of insurance into the cost.
Now whether the Postal Service pays out on the claim is a whole other story.
 
High Standard said:
Disagree. If both parties fulfilled their respectful contractual agreement, and the package was lost or stolen, It's not the sellers responsibility to eat the cost.
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Just in case you are interested here is the law: https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/rul...-proceedings/mail-internet-or-telephone-order

And before you say "but I did ship the item". That is not what "ship" means in this instance, it means the act of getting the item to the buyer. Remember, the language is from 1975.

You as the seller hire a shipping service to deliver your item. The shipping service is your representative. If the shipping service that is representing you loses the item, you have lost the item. Therefore, do everything you feel the need to protect yourself when dealing with a representative shipping service. Or, I guess you could hand deliver the item.

So again, this is not a BF rule. It is federal law. And to go further, if you use paypal goods, you now agree to abide by their terms which absolutely make the seller responsible for getting the item to the buyer.
 
craytab said:
Just in case you are interested here is the law: https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/rul...-proceedings/mail-internet-or-telephone-order

And before you say "but I did ship the item". That is not what "ship" means in this instance, it means the act of getting the item to the buyer. Remember, the language is from 1975.

You as the seller hire a shipping service to deliver your item. The shipping service is your representative. If the shipping service that is representing you loses the item, you have lost the item. Therefore, do everything you feel the need to protect yourself when dealing with a representative shipping service. Or, I guess you could hand deliver the item.

So again, this is not a BF rule. It is federal law. And to go further, if you use paypal goods, you now agree to abide by their terms which absolutely make the seller responsible for getting the item to the buyer.
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This post and that link should be required reading for anyone to sell something on this or any other forum.
 
Anybody ever use a third party insurance company for shipping packages? I thought I heard of that in the past somewhere.
 
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