WARNING: To NYC Residents & Tourists

[john w]

Where I live the law on the opening of a knife, besides autos, is "gravity and inertia" What do they mean by inertia anyway...is that centrifugal?? Im not sure but they might get ya' if it opens at all. This is a problem everywhere. Thanks for the tip on USKTA..did not know they were there.
WOOK

 

[Monocrom]

Okay...so why don't we set up a defense fund for the shop owner? If we could get a sticky on the main discussion board maybe we could take up a collection. (I don't know how the moderators will feel about it though)

I'll PM one of the Mods to see if that would be okay.

 

[Cougar Allen]

Gentlebeings, please forgive me if I sound a little hard-boiled, but this kind of question comes up a lot and experience has shown we have to ask questions before we get swept up in the enthusiasm. So far what we have is a second-hand rant. A former knife dealer ranted to Monocrom about why he doesn't sell knives any more and Monocrom got fired up and came here and ranted to us. Before we let anybody use Bladeforums to collect money we would have to have some really solid facts about exactly what is going on and what the money would be used for, and we would need someone the moderators know to be trustworthy to collect the money and see that it all goes to the cause -- and what cause exactly? To pay lawyers? What lawyers? Do they know what they're doing? Are their fees reasonable and in line with their skills and competitive with other available lawyers? I could go on asking questions all night.... The bottom line is it's not necessarily impossible, but we have a long way to go before we're organized enough to start soliciting donations.

It might be more productive to get AKTI involved, and then if it turns out there's a need for money AKTI might be the best group to raise and handle the money. It might turn out that money isn't what's needed. AKTI has other resources.

 

[Monocrom]

Thank You for taking little time in responding to my question. I understand what you're saying.

 

[tom19176]

I agree with Cougar here. This dealer was arrested along with four other stores in the Queens area, as a result of several slashings/stabbing that had occurred in Queens that week. A few of the underaged Teens had stated they purchased the knives they had in certain parts of Queens ( Jamica and Flushing) and plain cloths officers went to those areas and bought knives. My understanding is the stores that were raided all sold the officers knives that "opened quickly for use as a weapon" as that was the question the DA told them to ask. Three of the stores sold them true switchblades ( Cheap knock offs) and the other two sold them "gravity knives". The stores that sold gravity knives showed the officers how to "flick" them open to be deployed quickly as a weapon. This clearly proved they had fore knownledge the knives they sold could be opened in that manner and it was a fact a selling point for them.

Now I am a knife collector as we all are here, but these aressts where done in response to a condition that needed correcting and the dealers all fully knew their knives could be flicked open and showed their customers how to do it. I wonder how many of their customers were arrested for know having a illegal knife in their possession?
The NY law was not passed to banned any knife that could be flicked open. The courts have allowed that interpatation to stand. I do wish that some one who take on a case in the Court of Appeals regurding this and win a judgement showing that this is not being enforced in the spirit of the law that was paseed in the 1950s. All that said , the dealer in question should have known what the law( as this is how it has been enforced since the 1960s) was and sold his knives in accordance with the law. I would have more concern for him if he did not realize the knives could be flicked open or did not realize they were illegal. Any business is required to be aware of their local laws. I also argee that many other larger stores sell knives that can be flicked open, but they all have strict policies about sales to minors ( which was the real cause for the raid). I wish they would raid Target or Dicks and see if their lawyers stand up for their rights and get a judgement that would help us all, but I think we would see what happened to Walmart in Illionis- they would pay a fine and move on just not offer that product for sale in that area.

 

[Gadgetman7]

As far as the defense fund idea goes, in my experience if a political organization finds out that people are willing to fund a defense for someone who is fighting them the political organization often moves on to an easier target. Having said that I apologize if I seemed reactionary Just a little frustration.

Cougar thanks for taking the time to answer. Actually, I am a member of AKTI but they seem to be reluctant to try to change existing laws, I was told mostly due to a lack of funding. I assume from your comments that the moderators would prefer to allow AKTI and other organizations to handle these issues. If that's so then perhaps a sticky to that effect would help gain members for AKTI and allow funding for some addtional political activities.

Just my 2 cents. Now I'll shut up.

 

[Cougar Allen]

I assume from your comments that the moderators would prefer to allow AKTI and other organizations to handle these issues.

I didn't say that, and I didn't say raising money for that particular dealer's legal defense is a bad idea, either. I'm just saying raising money is not the first step. Some other steps have to come before that.

 

[alphareyx]

just curious, does balisong [butterfly knife] count as illegal in nyc? technically theyre not switchblades nor gravity knives due to the locking mechanism or something. i read that its only illegal when there is the intent to harm another. im just want to make sure

 

[tom19176]

The NYS Courts have five different rulings that have declared these not to be gravity knives. NYC PD still believe them to be designed for use as a weapon and will charge you with either a gravity knife or the "dangerous knife" classification. They will mostly likely be proven wrong in court on the gravity knife charge, but they will most likely win on a dangerous knife charge. The NYPD Academy still teaches recurits that they are illegal.

 

[Monocrom]

The NYS Courts have five different rulings that have declared these not to be gravity knives. NYC PD still believe them to be designed for use as a weapon and will charge you with either a gravity knife or the "dangerous knife" classification. They will mostly likely be proven wrong in court on the gravity knife charge, but they will most likely win on a dangerous knife charge. The NYPD Academy still teaches recurits that they are illegal.

Nice to know that's the sort of garbage that new police officers are being taught. Even a traditional buck model 110 can be opened with proper wrist rotation. Who wants to argue that's a gravity knife or a "dangerous weapon?"

If I jam a tightly rolled up newspaper into the throat of someone I don't like, I guess it's now a dangerous weapon. All the news stand operators better watch out that they don't get raided.

The issue about teens having gone on stabbing sprees is just an excuse. So they bought knives and stabbed people with them. It's not illegal to sell knives that aren't gravity knives. (Which is what a tactical folder like a Spyderco Delica certainly isn't). It's not as though some gun-runners sold the teens a bunch of illegal automatic weapons.

Hmm.... shutting down a few knife shops..... brilliant! Now when teens want to go on stabbing sprees they'll have no place to turn to to buy knives..... with the ridiculously obvious exception of their kitchen drawers, or the local Supermarket. Cause teens aren't smart enough to figure out that they can place fixed-blade knives between their belts and pants, and cover the knife with a jacket.

Just how many LEOs in my city turned in their common sense when they were issued their badges?

 

[tom19176]

Monocrom, I agree with most of what you said. I am just telling the facts that exisit but I do not agree with them. Months ago I said in my years as a NYC LEO if I saw 10 real pocket or hunting knives used as a weapon, it was a lot. I saw kitchen knives, sharpened screw drivers and razors as the most frequently used cutting weapons. There were alot of time you would stop someone who had a knife on them that was by definition "illegal". If they were in a car, I had them put it in the trunk, and explained the law to them and that others might arrest them for it. I remember being called to the Amemeriacn Museum Of Natual History because a 12 year old boy was sitting by one of the exhibits playing with a butterfly knife( this was in the 1980s). His mother was near by when I arrived, and I had the mother put it in her purse and explained that he should not have been displaying it in a public place, and that this knife was deemed by most to be illegal. In todays world, with the new officers that are on the street, they grew up not carrying any knives due to metal detectors in schools, clubs, sporting events and office buildings. They therefore do not believe that anyone should carry a knife. Not good for sure, but true. Just becareful what you carry in NY, and in particaulr NYC.....tighten the pivot screws and peen the blades tight.

 

[jude_061]

monocrom, do you have a reference to an article about that incident? i'd really like to read the particulars and see how the dealer was portrayed in the paper.

by that reasoning ANY knife is a gravity knife.

did they compensate him? at whose directive did the police close the shop? who swore out the warrant to seize the goods? thats absolutely ridiculous. they'll be goose stepping down broadway soon i guess...

 

[tom19176]

Jude....google the Post and Daily news....the article was in both and was still there awhile ago, but this all happened late 2003 or early 2004. The law has been the same for over 45 years, but as with many laws enforcement can be lax at times then come down hard.....the papers showed the stores as in the wrong selling dangerous knives to kids and the cops as heros......

 

[jude_061]

great, thanks. i'll look now. that's the spin i expected.

 

[Monocrom]

Monocrom, I agree with most of what you said. I am just telling the facts that exisit but I do not agree with them. Months ago I said in my years as a NYC LEO if I saw 10 real pocket or hunting knives used as a weapon, it was a lot. I saw kitchen knives, sharpened screw drivers and razors as the most frequently used cutting weapons. There were alot of time you would stop someone who had a knife on them that was by definition "illegal". If they were in a car, I had them put it in the trunk, and explained the law to them and that others might arrest them for it. I remember being called to the Amemeriacn Museum Of Natual History because a 12 year old boy was sitting by one of the exhibits playing with a butterfly knife( this was in the 1980s). His mother was near by when I arrived, and I had the mother put it in her purse and explained that he should not have been displaying it in a public place, and that this knife was deemed by most to be illegal. In todays world, with the new officers that are on the street, they grew up not carrying any knives due to metal detectors in schools, clubs, sporting events and office buildings. They therefore do not believe that anyone should carry a knife. Not good for sure, but true. Just becareful what you carry in NY, and in particaulr NYC.....tighten the pivot screws and peen the blades tight.

I hate to admit it, but you're right. For a moment there, I forgot about the difference regarding how things are, vs. how they should be.

I apologize if my previous post came off sounding as a personal insult. Wasn't meant to be as such. I just find it bizarre that legitimate business owners would be targeted in such a way. I know the owner of that particular shop. He would never encourage his customers to violate the law in any way, shape, or form.

I'm glad to hear that you used your common sense as an LEO, and tried to educate the members of the General public that you came in contact with, regarding knife laws. I just wish there were more guys like you, wearing a badge, in NYC.

 

[doubledown]

The NYS Courts have five different rulings that have declared these not to be gravity knives. NYC PD still believe them to be designed for use as a weapon and will charge you with either a gravity knife or the "dangerous knife" classification. They will mostly likely be proven wrong in court on the gravity knife charge, but they will most likely win on a dangerous knife charge. The NYPD Academy still teaches recurits that they are illegal.

tom19176, I'm interesting in looking those rulings over. Do you know where I might find them?

 

[tom19176]

There are a few listed in Bernard Levine"s posting on this site. I emailed three more to him to add to his posting but I don't think he did it yet. My friend's wife is the head of a law library for a major NYC Law firm so she looked them up for me. I will see if I can post any more info on them, but they mostly all came to the same conclusion that since butterfly knives require additional action to be locked open they are not gravity knives. Be warned that you could still be charged with a "dangerous knife"....

 

[dtownknifekid]

I too am mad about that, but there was one reference I did not see. That reference was the second Amendment, the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Arms means weapons and I'm pretty shure a knife counts as a weapon so technichally by passing such laws they are disobeying our constitution. also doesn't bear mean to carry so by not alowing one to carry knives you are infringing on the constitution. Besides criminals don't care about the laws so outlawing any kind of knife wont do good there are still many switchblades in use where they are illegal. I say no more knife restricting legeslation it has no effect anyway.

 

[linzoy]

Are you sure there is no effect? The murder rate in NYC keeps going down. I want to go to college in NYC and I'm not looking forward to walking around defenseless, but I feel pretty safe because right now new york has the lowest crime rate of any american city. It's not right for someone who's been selling pocket knives their whole life to be convicted of a felony but maybe we normal citizens should be grateful for these crazy laws. As long as you keep your collection at home nothing is going to happen.

 

[Dmax]

Are you serious? I don't think you know what you are talking about. Were people getting murdered with knives that could be opened with one hand before stricter enforcement of the state's "gravity knife" law began?

New York City does not have the lowest crime rate of any american city. It may have a lower than average crime rate amongst large cities but that has more to do with the very high average income level of people who live and work there compared to the rest of the country. Moreover, most areas of US experienced a reduction in crime within the last decade.

Stricter knife or gun laws have never been proven to have any crime reducing affect. "Normal Citizens" don't need you to tell them to "keep their collection at home". You can remain grateful for "these crazy laws." I choose to remain outraged.