Why is tool steel not used for chef's knives?

[Danke42]

To be fair I do love the "Use a carbon knife in a kitchen and go straight to prison". It's a dead level tie with "If you have a brown sheath your knife will rust", and "if you plan survive with only a knife it must be a hollow handled model stuffed with sleeping pills; when lost in the wilderness not getting a solid 8 hours of rest is the real widowmaker".

True story.

 

[Aardvark]

You best check your finest atlas. It's just to the South of the Grand Duchy of Inox.

Ah, yes, I see it now, right next to the Opinel Palatinate. Evidently, the company was named after its home country.

Many thanks for your instruction.

 

[Danke42]

Bist du Deutsch?

I've found the regulation number. ISO / EN 8442-1

Can't cite exactly (the official documents are not offered for free) , but I've read from a french (knife steel seller) website that knives used in professional food processing are to contain at least 12% chromium. Even the french regulation is a bit stricter than the european one (13% chromium at a minimum).

All in all, boring stuff. And I'm not a pro chef nor a regulation specialist

ISO standards are a list of suggested best practices; not enforceable laws.

 

[marchone]

I spent 30 years plus working and running gastronomic/high end dinner house restaurants. I own and use quite a few carbon/tool steel knives from 1095 and 52100 to Kigami steel (used in a Makiri fisherman's knife-so much for fear of rust) with everything in between. I have vintage French butcher's knives and others I have no idea which steel was used, heat treat, temper, etc. But they are all easy to sharpen and maintain when used as intended. Slicer? Chopper? Every knife requires care. Carbon or stainless.

 

[Dr. Rayeye]

ISO standards are a list of suggested best practices; not enforceable laws.

In California, local public health officers set and enforce iso standards locally, which are easily met with stainless kitchen knives. Restaurant suppliers stock stainless kitchen knives almost exclusively. In practice, California retaurants end up with stainless knives used for most preparation work--as is done in most of the rest of the world. I somehow suspect you already know this.

 

[Danke42]

In California, local public health officers set and enforce iso standards locally, which are easily met with stainless kitchen knives. Restaurant suppliers stock stainless kitchen knives almost exclusively. In practice, California retaurants end up with stainless knives used for most preparation work--as is done in most of the rest of the world. I somehow suspect you already know this.

ISO is International Standard for Organization. So again it's not law it's a best practice and second much like the World Series isn't the whole world neither is California.

 

[chalby]

ISO is International Standard for Organization. So again it's not law it's a best practice and second much like the World Series isn't the whole world neither is California.

Not trying to argue or anything, but in many places ISO may as well be law. I'm sure there are many examples where this isn't the case, but a lot of food service/production businesses require some sort of food safety program with ISO being by far the most common one. In a lot of the food industry, you can't operate unless you comply with ISO standards and businesses are audited every year or two to ensure compliance.

 

[Forest Ninja]

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[mentalknife]

Because production kitchen knives need to be stainless. Only traditional Japanese knives aren't and the only folks who actually use that outdated shit these days are hipsters. Because lets be real if you're gonna put up with some rusty high maintenance knife, it better bring something else to the table like incredible toughness and edge retention, but nah with outdated traditional Japanese stuff you get high maintenance and pretty low performance (we're talking about steel, right?), they're rusty, and brittle and have no edge retention, yet clearly so many people are convinced these over priced outdated stagnant hipster knives have magical properties. On the bright side, they generally have enough toughness for their intended purpose and the steel is quite hard, while being very very easy for even the most untalented end user to get very very sharp very very quickly. The good ones have excellent cutting geometry and are generally well balanced, with ergonomics melt into an extension of your body.

To answer your question tho, stainlessness is very important in production kitchen knives, but right up there with that is user serviceability which means sharpenability which means easily able to sharpened by end users with normal equipment, which means whetstones which means aluminum oxide, which means you can forget any vanadium dominant tool steels or their stainless equivalents/versions.

There are some tool steels that seem like they could be interesting choices for (CUSTOM) kitchen knives, but manufacturers generally know what they're doing, certainly more than end users do, and they use what they use for a reason... some of that is the burden of tradition, but much of it is modern and very intentional choices. High end production kitchen knives from Europe are still using 4116 steel, and that's fine. On the Japanese side they're using SG2 across the board, and as someone that has tested basically everything that exists that's about as "good" of a steel as you'd ever need in a kitchen knife. It's just as hard as all but the best carbon steels but it will stay sharp in use considerably longer but at the same time it doesn't have so much abrasion resistance that it can't easily be touched up on normal stones, it's properly stainless, and it's actually quite tough despite the hardness, more than tough enough for a kitchen knife. Anything past this point and you're hitting diminishing returns in terms of any potential "performance boost" you might get vs other compromises including price. This is what the whole industry is tooled up to use and I don't expect that to change any time soon. Much more important is everything else about the knife, ergonomics, cutting geometry, blade profile, fit and finish, quality control. Rather than choosing from say the 3 overpriced and terribly designed kitchen knives that actuallyexist on any level (though it would be hard to call them "production ") in some exotic steel like magancut or whatever, you've got literally hundreds of different knives to choose from made from this steel, by dozens of companies.

 

[roaduck]

Because production kitchen knives need to be stainless. Only traditional Japanese knives aren't and the only folks who actually use that outdated shit these days are hipsters. Because lets be real if you're gonna put up with some rusty high maintenance knife, it better bring something else to the table like incredible toughness and edge retention, but nah with outdated traditional Japanese stuff you get high maintenance and pretty low performance (we're talking about steel, right?), they're rusty, and brittle and have no edge retention, yet clearly so many people are convinced these over priced outdated stagnant hipster knives have magical properties. On the bright side, they generally have enough toughness for their intended purpose and the steel is quite hard, while being very very easy for even the most untalented end user to get very very sharp very very quickly. The good ones have excellent cutting geometry and are generally well balanced, with ergonomics melt into an extension of your body.

To answer your question tho, stainlessness is very important in production kitchen knives, but right up there with that is user serviceability which means sharpenability which means easily able to sharpened by end users with normal equipment, which means whetstones which means aluminum oxide, which means you can forget any vanadium dominant tool steels or their stainless equivalents/versions.

There are some tool steels that seem like they could be interesting choices for (CUSTOM) kitchen knives, but manufacturers generally know what they're doing, certainly more than end users do, and they use what they use for a reason... some of that is the burden of tradition, but much of it is modern and very intentional choices. High end production kitchen knives from Europe are still using 4116 steel, and that's fine. On the Japanese side they're using SG2 across the board, and as someone that has tested basically everything that exists that's about as "good" of a steel as you'd ever need in a kitchen knife. It's just as hard as all but the best carbon steels but it will stay sharp in use considerably longer but at the same time it doesn't have so much abrasion resistance that it can't easily be touched up on normal stones, it's properly stainless, and it's actually quite tough despite the hardness, more than tough enough for a kitchen knife. Anything past this point and you're hitting diminishing returns in terms of any potential "performance boost" you might get vs other compromises including price. This is what the whole industry is tooled up to use and I don't expect that to change any time soon. Much more important is everything else about the knife, ergonomics, cutting geometry, blade profile, fit and finish, quality control. Rather than choosing from say the 3 overpriced and terribly designed kitchen knives that actuallyexist on any level (though it would be hard to call them "production ") in some exotic steel like magancut or whatever, you've got literally hundreds of different knives to choose from made from this steel, by dozens of companies.

Very well put M mentalknife ; I totally concur.

4116 stainless steel is more than acceptable for the vast majority of knives so is Sandvik 12C27 and 14C28N.I have even seen workable knives made of 18/10 ; there`s no need for VG-10 or AUS-10 for many kitchen knife users.

A lot of people just want a low maintenance stainless knife made out of a balanced steel that isn`t too expensive.

I have a few carbons because I lived in the Far East and I`m traditional in my steel choice because I like the look and feel of it.It is only very recently, literally in the last couple of years that I have discovered good mid-range stainless knives because my girlfriend won`t touch carbons.I have one RWL-34 bespoke caidao which used to be a supersteel years ago.

For example I flogged very expensive custom discrete active hi-fi`s years ago and I have heard one mono valve amp / horn speaker combo sound huge and realistic and three dimensional.
Like Phil Spectre`s wall of sound recordings from the sixties.

I have heard a 3-box cd system with a 14 box amp digital system that sounded impressive and analytical like in a studio with monitors but it wasn`t really natural and enjoyable.

It`s like class "A" transistor and tube amps have gorgeous midrange but are huge, hot and expensive.

Now it`s all switching power supply class "D" amps which are small, cool and cheap.Some sound very good indeed but not "live"

A good recording should sound live even if it`s a studio recording.

I told customers to put the news on or put solo piano on and go out of the room and shut the door and from outside the listening room I asked them if it sounded like there was a real person talking in the room or a real piano playing in the room behind the closed door.That is the difference between music and hi-fi.

It`s all about acceptable compromises.

I cook voluntarily most days and I hammer my knives because I`m prepping 100 lb of produce some days for countless hungry homeless souls - God bless them.

I need a knife that is tough but not a traditional German or French design because I hate bolsters and can`t stand the geometry.But that`s just my preference.

Living in Hong Kong I used a Chinese chef`s knife (vegetable cleaver) for every job in the kitch; I still do.

My girlfriend likes fancy Japanese handmade specialist knives as long as they`re stainless haha!

 

[Dr. Rayeye]

Because production kitchen knives need to be stainless. Only traditional Japanese knives aren't and the only folks who actually use that outdated shit these days are hipsters. Because lets be real if you're gonna put up with some rusty high maintenance knife, it better bring something else to the table like incredible toughness and edge retention, but nah with outdated traditional Japanese stuff you get high maintenance and pretty low performance (we're talking about steel, right?), they're rusty, and brittle and have no edge retention, yet clearly so many people are convinced these over priced outdated stagnant hipster knives have magical properties. On the bright side, they generally have enough toughness for their intended purpose and the steel is quite hard, while being very very easy for even the most untalented end user to get very very sharp very very quickly. The good ones have excellent cutting geometry and are generally well balanced, with ergonomics melt into an extension of your body.

To answer your question tho, stainlessness is very important in production kitchen knives, but right up there with that is user serviceability which means sharpenability which means easily able to sharpened by end users with normal equipment, which means whetstones which means aluminum oxide, which means you can forget any vanadium dominant tool steels or their stainless equivalents/versions.

There are some tool steels that seem like they could be interesting choices for (CUSTOM) kitchen knives, but manufacturers generally know what they're doing, certainly more than end users do, and they use what they use for a reason... some of that is the burden of tradition, but much of it is modern and very intentional choices. High end production kitchen knives from Europe are still using 4116 steel, and that's fine. On the Japanese side they're using SG2 across the board, and as someone that has tested basically everything that exists that's about as "good" of a steel as you'd ever need in a kitchen knife. It's just as hard as all but the best carbon steels but it will stay sharp in use considerably longer but at the same time it doesn't have so much abrasion resistance that it can't easily be touched up on normal stones, it's properly stainless, and it's actually quite tough despite the hardness, more than tough enough for a kitchen knife. Anything past this point and you're hitting diminishing returns in terms of any potential "performance boost" you might get vs other compromises including price. This is what the whole industry is tooled up to use and I don't expect that to change any time soon. Much more important is everything else about the knife, ergonomics, cutting geometry, blade profile, fit and finish, quality control. Rather than choosing from say the 3 overpriced and terribly designed kitchen knives that actuallyexist on any level (though it would be hard to call them "production ") in some exotic steel like magancut or whatever, you've got literally hundreds of different knives to choose from made from this steel, by dozens of companies.

Because production kitchen knives need to be stainless. Only traditional Japanese knives aren't and the only folks who actually use that outdated shit these days are hipsters. Because lets be real if you're gonna put up with some rusty high maintenance knife, it better bring something else to the table like incredible toughness and edge retention, but nah with outdated traditional Japanese stuff you get high maintenance and pretty low performance (we're talking about steel, right?), they're rusty, and brittle and have no edge retention, yet clearly so many people are convinced these over priced outdated stagnant hipster knives have magical properties. On the bright side, they generally have enough toughness for their intended purpose and the steel is quite hard, while being very very easy for even the most untalented end user to get very very sharp very very quickly. The good ones have excellent cutting geometry and are generally well balanced, with ergonomics melt into an extension of your body.

To answer your question tho, stainlessness is very important in production kitchen knives, but right up there with that is user serviceability which means sharpenability which means easily able to sharpened by end users with normal equipment, which means whetstones which means aluminum oxide, which means you can forget any vanadium dominant tool steels or their stainless equivalents/versions.

There are some tool steels that seem like they could be interesting choices for (CUSTOM) kitchen knives, but manufacturers generally know what they're doing, certainly more than end users do, and they use what they use for a reason... some of that is the burden of tradition, but much of it is modern and very intentional choices. High end production kitchen knives from Europe are still using 4116 steel, and that's fine. On the Japanese side they're using SG2 across the board, and as someone that has tested basically everything that exists that's about as "good" of a steel as you'd ever need in a kitchen knife. It's just as hard as all but the best carbon steels but it will stay sharp in use considerably longer but at the same time it doesn't have so much abrasion resistance that it can't easily be touched up on normal stones, it's properly stainless, and it's actually quite tough despite the hardness, more than tough enough for a kitchen knife. Anything past this point and you're hitting diminishing returns in terms of any potential "performance boost" you might get vs other compromises including price. This is what the whole industry is tooled up to use and I don't expect that to change any time soon. Much more important is everything else about the knife, ergonomics, cutting geometry, blade profile, fit and finish, quality control. Rather than choosing from say the 3 overpriced and terribly designed kitchen knives that actuallyexist on any level (though it would be hard to call them "production ") in some exotic steel like magancut or whatever, you've got literally hundreds of different knives to choose from made from this steel, by dozens of companies.

I wouldn't want you to change a word in this reply--even though I know a forum that would probably banish you for this. From a performance/value proposition, Japanese artisan knives are an immediate red flag. The throwback approach to design, with rat tail tangs stuck part way into an octagonal wooden handle, with steel susceptible to rust--even when protected with cladding. All my knives are stainless production knives, including several Ken Onion models that use hard tool steel. Some of them employ advanced technology--like my Shun dual core kiritsuke.

There will always be handmade knives that deserve being called works of art with both carbon and SS steel, at least a level above production knives--and I recognize and appreciate them, but I'm a home cook, and not a collector.

 

[helobite]

Cutco Knives had a team behind a table at the Arkansas State Fair. Their knives were nicely made, balanced well, shiny. I asked what steel they used, and it was 440A. As we know, 440A can be tempered to a reasonable hardness, but not an ultimate HRC in the middle 60's, and it is very rust resistant. It is also easily sharpened. I then asked why not something "more advanced", by which I meant Vg-10, D2, or even 440C. The representatives said, their customer was a person who washed Cutco knives in the dishwasher. Which probably also means, their customer does not have diamond stones or use a belt grinder to sharpen their knives. If you look on their website, send them back a Cutco knife, and they will sharpen it for free. Based on that, I am sure their customer does not have a diamond stone or belt grinder.

Everything I have read by Chefs indicates that they expect all knives get dull. As a general rule they want something that the edge can quickly be brought back to usable with a steel, and when they have to sharpen, they want something easy to sharpen. They don't want to use their valuble time on hard edges. I am sure there are some that are, but overall, Chefs are more about the cooking, than about the cutting knives.

I sharpen free hand, and it still takes time. Those with complicated, three dimensional fixtures, I cannot imagine them going home for the night after sharpening all their cooking knives at the end of the day.

I have no idea of the hardness of this knife. It just looks good, but I don't think it is all that hard.

If this is made from a Chinese Artillery shell, it surely is plain carbon steels. I cannot imagine the Chinese lobbying in VG10 artillery shells.

I will claim that the few Carbon V knives I have used in the kitchen, the cutting edge is very clean, slices very well. I don't let them delibrately rust. So I can't tell a taste difference. I think the smooth edge, ease of sharpening, with decent edge retention, is why so many kitchen knives were 1095. But for today, soft stainless blades seem to be preferred.

 

[KenHash]

I wouldn't want you to change a word in this reply--even though I know a forum that would probably banish you for this. From a performance/value proposition, Japanese artisan knives are an immediate red flag. The throwback approach to design, with rat tail tangs stuck part way into an octagonal wooden handle, with steel susceptible to rust--even when protected with cladding.

Traditional Japanese knives (and swords) are not "Rat Tail Tang". They are 3/4 or Partial Tang. Strong enough to cut armor on the battlefield, no proble, cutting vegetables in the kitchen. For cooking purposes there is absolutely no advantage or disadvantage compared to the full tang western handle. The Gyuto is the Japanese version of a European chef's knife, believe to have been a Sabatier in the mid-late 1800s so they have been around for over 100 years.

The traditional hand forged cooking knives remained with the Wa-handle. And the only place you see them in use in Japan is in traditional cuisine restaurants including "sushi" restaurants. Western visitors to Japan became enamored with the traditional knives and a demamd for the Wa-gyuto, a double beveled chef's knife with a traditional handle was born.

I use full tang western handles for most of my cooking. Main reason is that I prefer the weight distribution over continuous use.
Only when I break down fish and prepare sashimi do my Deba and Yanagiba, singlle bevels see any action. Thet are White 2 and Blue 2 and do not rust because I wipe them dry prompty after use. My western handled knives are powder steel, R2 which is the most common in Japan with SG2 and SRS13 following. They are my preference for their hardness and long edge retention.

Cooking knives, like all knives, is a matter of personal choice. There is no "this is better than that".
Carbon steel fans cite that they can gettheir knives sharper than Stainless. Perhaps yes, perhapsno. I think it depends on the person doing the sharpening.

 

[Dr. Rayeye]

My perspective is that of a wary home cook who was given a Seki Magoroku nakiri 30+ years ago as a gift by a Japanese family in Japan, similar to the one they were using. It was full Tang in an adapted oval wa handle. It's the artisan knives offered today--stylish throwbacks that market themselves to seem "traditional," and avoid any sense of updating--and charge premium prices--that raise red flags for me (as the previous poster explained in colorful language).

The Japanese knives that I especially appreciate in the United States are import knives from the Japanese manufacturer Kai to innovate fusion between Western and Asian concepts under the brand name Shun, just as they already were doing in Japan with my Seki Magoroku nakiri. I have a spectacular Fuji 8 1/2" sg-2 core 161 layer damascus Chef Knife, an interesting Fuji hollow ground sg-2 165 mm damascus santoku, and a dual core 8" kiritsuke--all guided toward cultural fusion. These knives are marketed primarily or exclusively in the US.

 

[KenHash]

My perspective is that of a wary home cook who was given a Seki Magoroku nakiri 30+ years ago as a gift by a Japanese family in Japan, similar to the one they were using. It was full Tang in an adapted oval wa handle. It's the artisan knives offered today--stylish throwbacks that market themselves to seem "traditional," and avoid any sense of updating--and charge premium prices--that raise red flags for me (as the previous poster explained in colorful language).

The Japanese knives that I especially appreciate in the United States are import knives from the Japanese manufacturer Kai to innovate fusion between Western and Asian concepts under the brand name Shun, just as they already were doing in Japan with my Seki Magoroku nakiri. I have a spectacular Fuji 8 1/2" sg-2 core 161 layer damascus Chef Knife, an interesting Fuji hollow ground sg-2 165 mm damascus santoku, and a dual core 8" kiritsuke--all guided toward cultural fusion. These knives are marketed primarily or exclusively in the US.

I had Kai's Seki Magoroku knives 35+ years ago. They were the lowest end knives sold in Home Improvement Centers. The "Shun" brand actually started as a Seki Magoroku series but Mr Endo, President of Kai decided to branch the Shun line off into another series with the specific purpose of challenging Henckels and Wustoff in the US market. That was in 2002. As you correctly point out, Kai's Shun line has evolved into the most "fusion-esque" Japanese knives using German blade profiles. Meantime, the Seki Magoroku line still exists in the Japanese domestic market, from low end up to high end.

The hand-forged knives made in the traditional manner by small shops with sometimes very long histories in various parts of Japan are carrying on a long tradition. Some are shoddy, while others are absolute masterpieces. That there are $6000 Honyakis for sale attests to the fact that there is a market. And those people often turn theor noses up at any factory made knife. To each their own.

 

[Forest Ninja]

Traditional Japanese knives (and swords) are not "Rat Tail Tang". They are 3/4 or Partial Tang. Strong enough to cut armor on the battlefield, no proble, cutting vegetables in the kitchen.
The traditional hand forged cooking knives remained with the Wa-handle. And the only place you see them in use in Japan is in traditional cuisine restaurants including "sushi" restaurants.

.

 

[Taz]

Japanese swords are the 3/4 tang variety typically. Wa tangs on kitchen knives are of the narrowing tang style typically.

 

[Dr. Rayeye]

I had Kai's Seki Magoroku knives 35+ years ago. They were the lowest end knives sold in Home Improvement Centers. The "Shun" brand actually started as a Seki Magoroku series but Mr Endo, President of Kai decided to branch the Shun line off into another series with the specific purpose of challenging Henckels and Wustoff in the US market. That was in 2002. As you correctly point out, Kai's Shun line has evolved into the most "fusion-esque" Japanese knives using German blade profiles. Meantime, the Seki Magoroku line still exists in the Japanese domestic market, from low end up to high end.

The hand-forged knives made in the traditional manner by small shops with sometimes very long histories in various parts of Japan are carrying on a long tradition. Some are shoddy, while others are absolute masterpieces. That there are $6000 Honyakis for sale attests to the fact that there is a market. And those people often turn theor noses up at any factory made knife. To each their own.

"Hand forged in the traditional manner" without updating one's skillset, tool kit, and world cultural awareness can be a recipe for disaster for the Japanese kitchen knife industry. Even small shops can benefit from cad/cam applications and trained workers with computer skills. Kai Shun innovated in many ways to bring new fusion products to American markets, but their impressive new technology product introductions have stalled here. I think many Japanese craftsmen marketing traditional throwback artisan products take pride in that.

Meanwhile, Chinese manufacturing has updated in every way possible in Yangjiang--with computer CAD systems proinently on display, and workers who know how to use them. They've been willing to partner in collaborative roles--from providing components to new product lines--my innovative Japanese Shun dual core came with a Chinese saya. They've also began using steel from both European and Japanese sources--including Boher M390 tool steel (Hezhen), and Hitachi srs13 powder steel (Xinzao). Japanese manufacturers at all levels should be taking the need to educate workers and update tools much more seriously.

 

[KenHash]

"Hand forged in the traditional manner" without updating one's skillset, tool kit, and world cultural awareness can be a recipe for disaster for the Japanese kitchen knife industry. Even small shops can benefit from cad/cam applications and trained workers with computer skills. Kai Shun innovated in many ways to bring new fusion products to American markets, but their impressive new technology product introductions have stalled here. I think many Japanese craftsmen marketing traditional throwback artisan products take pride in that.

Meanwhile, Chinese manufacturing has updated in every way possible in Yangjiang--with computer CAD systems proinently on display, and workers who know how to use them. They've been willing to partner in collaborative roles--from providing components to new product lines--my innovative Japanese Shun dual core came with a Chinese saya. They've also began using steel from both European and Japanese sources--including Boher M390 tool steel (Hezhen), and Hitachi srs13 powder steel (Xinzao). Japanese manufacturers at all levels should be taking the need to educate workers and update tools much more seriously.

I think you are mixing up two different worlds. One is the "Cutlery Industry" as exemplified by factory production, CAD systems, laser cutting, Mass production, etc etc. These are the Shuns, Globals, Zwillings, Wustoffs, Sabatiers and every label out of Yangjiang.
The other is the small shop artisan hand forged traditional makers. Some have histories going back hundreds of years and the atelier is handed down through msny generations from Master to Apprentice. They aren't in the game to compete in the Cutlery Industry..
This is no different than people who prefer Factory Production or Custom knives.
The Japanese kitchen knife "Industry" as seen in Sakai, Tsubame-Sanjo,Seki is just fine. The Artisans are a different story as fewer and fewer young people want to put in the long time and effort to learn under a Master, and very often when the Master retires or passes away, the shop dissappears as well.

 

[jc57]

I am just imagining the bloodbath that this thread would be over on KKF.

Most of my kitchen knives are from Shun. I have a few from several of their product lines: Classic (3), Premier (3), Kaji (2), Fuji (1), and Blue (1). The core steels are VG-MAX for the first two product lines, SG2 for the next two, and Blue #2 carbon for the last. So I guess I have one hipster knife. Add to that a few Zwilling that are probably some 4110 - 4116 equivalent, and some cheap KAI brand Chinese-made knives with the colorful plastic handles and matching blades and sayas, that are a soft steel, 3CR13MOV or similar, for beaters.

Key is knowing how to sharpen and having the right tools to match the type of knives. I use water stones on the Shuns and a honing steel and Arkansas stones on the lower end ones. If you can keep them sharp, even cheap knives are serviceable.