1095 steel/hardening/quenching

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rockriver

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I have researched this topic over and over, and I know it's got to be a subject that irritates many that see it over and over. But at the risk of being a new guy on the forum getting banned :D, I will go ahead and ask a basket of questions anyway.

First off, I have been making blades for a short while, and thought I had a method for working with 1095 steel pretty worked out. Seems there is a bit of controversy however on quenching, and tempering. I use Canola for a quenching oil. Is this not really adequate for a good blade? I am also reading that 1095 is really a water quenched steel...but kind of risky. Why is this? I have also read about different formulated quenching oils that have been described as "15 second, 25 second" or something similiar. What does this mean? I typically yanked the blade out of the forge and dropped it in the Canola, and swished it around, and called it good. Then I took it immediately to a 550 degree oven and tempered for an hour.

Experience is key, and I am seeking answers from those who have more than me! Educate me please! I do not want to put out a subpar blade.
 
Canola will work. Brine will work better. Water quenching is always risky, because the suppliers are talking about far thicker cross sections than what we are dealing with. You can use canola and get a decent blade, but 1095 needs a super fast quench, if i am not mistaken, it needs to drop to under 1000 degrees in the first second. For someone making a lot of knives, an investment in 5 gallons of Park's #50 might not be a bad idea. Here is some good info off Kevin Cashen's website regarding 1095.
http://cashenblades.com/steel/1095.html

Hope this helps.
 
If you are not going to be be shelling out the cash for proper fast quench oil, you might want to try working with some of Aldo's 1084 instead of 1095.

Please fill out your profile, you could be my next door neighbor but without at least knowing your city nobody will ever know if they would be able to invite you over for a lesson, and we have no way of knowing if you are a 12 year old kid, or a 50 year old machinist.

Hopefully the Count will follow his post with his standard answer for newbies which has a world of info

-Page
 
Welcome to it, let's see a photo of your design



I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions on how to make a knife. I'm sure it will help you too. How to Instructions for making a Knife.

The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V23

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:

Think thin. A paring knife slices, an axe doesn't.
Forget swords, Saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Start with a drawing.
Show it to us, we love to see and comment on photos.
Then make a cardboard cutout template & draw in handles, pins and such
Then make it in wood, paint sticks are free & close to the right size.
Play with that and see if it “feels right”. If it feels right it usually “looks right“

How to post a photo on BF
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/742638-TUTORIAL-Displaying-your-photographs-on-BladeForums

See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, the Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. Google books thread

Bob Engnath Patterns compiled into a PDF


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
Right Click and save link as.
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better for some steels.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.


Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with inlays, machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
Use a piece of known steel, not a file. I just post this as an example of doing it by hand with few tools.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades ,files and other unknown junkyard steels.
For all the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheapest & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 because of HT minimum charges.


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench.
Forget used motor oil, it's toxic and doesn't work that well.

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;

Even grocery store canola oil works well enough for your first knife-if you use the right steel.

Brine and water are almost free, and technically correct for W1 and "water hardening" steels but a fast oil like Parks 50 and Houghton Houghto Quench K are less likely to give you broken blades.
If you use water or brine, expect to have a cracked or broken blade.
Search the work "tink" for more info


Glue – Epoxy

Use a Fresh package of slow setting, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and well as seal out moisture.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive, blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean & no oil including fingerprints. Soap, Acetone & Alcohol, Blasting.
Clamp with moderate pressure= avoid a “glue starved joint” when all the adhesive is squeezed out.
These are well proven.
Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex
JB Weld


Grinder / Tools

In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Files can be made from unhardenable steel, or steel similar to 1095 that needs a difficult HT
Just use 1084 instead of a file.

Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html



VFD Variable Speed made simple

Simplest, and cheapest are hardly ever the same.

Yes you can get cheaper NEMA 1 VFD’s and build your own enclosure
Or you may find them cheaper at other retaillers, but watch shipping.

Wayne Coe
http://www.waynecoeartistblacksmith.com/Motors___VFDs.html

VFD-
KBAC-27D

Motor
3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C, RPM is up to you.
Make sure it has a footed base for the KMG ad NWG, or a C flange face mount for Bader and GIB styles.
I get them on ebay, even with paying $80 for shipping to Canada I save $$$ on a used motor.


Wiring kit
Wiring kit - for 115v VFD includes 8' 14 gage molded cord, 2' 4 conductor wire for from VFD to motor, cable glands, wire nuts and grounding connectors $45.00 including shipping CONUS.


The 1.5 HP combination is the most common setup, as reported by Rob Frink in some thread somewhere
It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.

There are cheaper VFD units like the TECO, but the only VFD I have found that will run a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC27D

It is NEMA4, sealed from metal dust that can smoke the unit.
It has good community and company support, like the manuals, hook-up diagrams, photos and adjustment settings on Rob Frink’s website.

I like the fact that I can buy it from a local distributor in Canada.

Travis W reported being able to run a 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.

Hookup is dead simple-Here's how
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html




Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
Don't believe me? google "Ed Caffrey lung cancer" and see what he has to say about it.

The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.
There are also prefilters that snap over the main filter for longer life.

For beards, pick one of these
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Searching
Search works for ALL users, even unpaid users.
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here

This is a special Google page that searches BF only & works better than the forum search.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

V23 Feb 6, 2012
Added VFD’s made simple

Countavatar.jpg
 
Yeah, it seems like this question comes up about once a week.

There is no absolutely correct way to heat treat 1095 or any other steel for that matter. All there are is opinions, theories and different philosophies. It just depends what you want to accomplish and how you want to accomplish it. Heat treating is simply a means to manipulate the properties of the steel for whatever purpose or concept you choose, not an exact science.

The best thing to do is experiment, test your blades yourself and compare them to other blades of known quality,... because you won't find the answers you're looking for any other way. Don’t take anyone else’s word for it.

Beyond a knife performing well for it’s intended purpose or purposes, it’s all just a bunch of mumbo jumbo and hype.
 
I briefly filled in my bio for all who are concerned about who I am. :D To sunshadow, i have no problem putting up the cash for the appropriate quench. This is why I'm here asking questions. I certainly don't know it all, but I have done a ton of research and reading and this seems to be one subject that has no definite answer. Can anyone throw out any links to manufacturer quenching recomendations? I haven't been able to find any.

Here are my latest two.
twins006.jpg
 
As far as I know, the industry standard for 1095 is "water",... which just goes to show that those types of industry standards may or may not even apply to what you are trying to accomplish. Water is the standard and everything else is alternative.

Facts are easy to find if you just do some searching on the internet, but it's how you interpret, filter and apply them that's the important thing in the long run, and just because such and such works for someone else, it may or may not work for you.

... Don't be intimidated by a bunch of metallurgical gibberish from other knifemakers, which is all most of it is designed to do...

You are correct in that there is no definite answer for everyone, (or every set of circumstances), but you can find the answers for yourself,... what meets your personal prerequisites, what works and what doesn't.

When it gets down to opinions on what is good, better or "best", it becomes more subjective than objective, and less scientific than philosophical.

One person's "good" may be better than another person's "best".
 
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Well I'm a bit of a newbie myself, and I have a ton to learn, but I thought that I would try to help out a fellow minnesotain. Some say that canola will give adequate results, others say it's not fast enough. One thing that I know is that warm oil, say 120 degree, is faster than room temp. The other thing, 550 degree temper seems a little hot, but I might off base here. That should give you a very tough blade, but I would think that it would be at the cost of poor edge holding. Hope this helps, good luck
 
The popularity of 1095 is a bit of a mystery, isn't it?

It's a great steel to learn from... it never lies and it's a stickler for details.

That's why I like it... one of my favs. :)

Long live good old 1095! :)
 
"You are correct in that there is no definite answer for everyone, (or every set of circumstances), but you can find the answers for yourself,... what meets your personal prerequisites, what works and what doesn't."


I messed with 1095 and went thorough all the diffent quench issues, then I got smart and switched to Aldo 1084. For me unless I used brine (salt water) I could not get the blade fully hardend, canola did well but not great. And then there was the cracking issue and some warping. Now a fast quench with 1084 and all is well.

Can I try to snatch the pebble from you hand now???
 
Patrickknives said:
Can I try to snatch the pebble from you hand now???
Click to expand...

Only if your arm is long enough and there's really a pebble to snatch grasshopper... ;)

What pebble???

It's like climbing to the top of the mountain to ask a guru for the answer,... but there is none, just a very large pile of pebbles to sort through. LOL
 
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"One person's "good" may be better than another person's "best"."
 
Good IS "F'n" GRRREAT!

… and the total opposite of bad.

Beyond "good",... it's all just a bunch of mumbo jumbo and hype.

(That's the problem these days, too many people wan't to be great,... but they haven't even learned to be good yet.) :(

I'll settle for "good" any day. :)
 
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I really appreciate all the info given here. I really need to investigate into a better quenching medium it seems. Someone earlier mentioned that I need to research more...I don't know that it is possible. I literally spend hours a day reading about metalurgy..HOURS. To the point that I start to confuse myself. As far as my tempering temp goes, this link is where I got my info from. http://www.m4040.com/Knifemaking/Steel2.htm I have been back and forth over tempering methods too...There are so many methods! I agree with you, Tai Goo...I would love to be "good"
 
There are engineered oils, orgnanic oils, homebrew recipes, water/brine and panther pee-pee.... In the end, whatever gives you the results you are looking for. Just be honest and upfront to yourself, your craft and the customer(if you sell).

For 1095...
-You won't get full hard with a slow oil.
-You'll pay more for an engineered quenchant.
-You run a risk of distortion/cracking with water/brine

Basically, you have obstacles in any direction you go. You need to educate yourself, weigh the options and make logical decisions based on what you've learned up to that point. Don't blindly follow any recipe without having at least an understanding of the concepts involved. AND........ Have fun, man.:thumbup:

I would think 550F is waaaaaaaaaay too high of a temper. Do you know what hardness your blades are at?

Rick

ETA: I have so many problems with that site you linked to that I don't even know where to begin.
 
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Rick Marchand said:
I would think 550F is waaaaaaaaaay too high of a temper.

Rick
Click to expand...

I have been back and forth over this too. Did you happen to check out the link I posted? I only posted it so someone could see where my info came from...not that it is correct or not. I'm not saying what I do is right, I'm here to learn. Where are good sources to learn more about tempering temps, and their effects? If Canolais too slow, and there is a better alternative, expensive or not, sounds like I'll be better off to drop the cash. I've had good results with Canola in my limited time doing this, but I I haven't had anything scientifically tested either. I have invested a bit of money and a lot of time learning the hands on way, but what can I compare my results to? I have to lean on those with more experience and knowledge than me.
 
The only useful info on that site is the phase chart. Good Gods!
What are you heating in for your heat treating?

Describe your current process including equipment used and measured temperatures as well as eyeballed temperatures

-Page
 
Are you getting the desired results from your current process?

1095 is pretty straight forward stuff. Heat to 1475F, hold for 10 minutes quench it in a fast enough medium to get it down to 1000F in less than .5 seconds.

-if you don't soak it, it may not get into full solution
-if you don't cool it fast enough you may get a lower "as quenched" hardness
-if you cool it too fast/unevenly you may get distortion or cracking
-if you temper too high you may not get the edge retention you are looking for.

The good news is, that you can still make a decent knife heating in a forge and quenching in canola. It really only matters if it matters.
 
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