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I'm sure you are aware that the standoffs are designed to replace the stop pin when it's worn and blade develops vertical play, as you mentioned...
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A Long Due Update to a Favorite - Ontario Rat 1
- Thread starter razorburn
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Sorry
Soslan
, I don't, but I've done it once with my old AUS 8 Rat1. As you can see from the below picture, all 5 standoffs are identical and one of them plays the role of stop pin.
All you have to do is to disassemble the knife and replace the current stop pin with any of the standoffs, this should do it if the issue is the stop pin, I'm sure you can examine it and determine if
it's damaged.
Forgot to tell you, the holes on the lock side liner are "D" shaped, also one side of the standoffs have the flat part cut so it will fit in the hole and not spin when the screws goes in.
This was the case with the old Rats, if I'm not mistaking the new production has only round holes, but don't be surprised if you see "D" shaped holes and standoffs, nothing complicated, just match the correct side of the standoff to the correct hole of the liner.
Soslan
, I don't, but I've done it once with my old AUS 8 Rat1. As you can see from the below picture, all 5 standoffs are identical and one of them plays the role of stop pin.All you have to do is to disassemble the knife and replace the current stop pin with any of the standoffs, this should do it if the issue is the stop pin, I'm sure you can examine it and determine if
it's damaged.
Forgot to tell you, the holes on the lock side liner are "D" shaped, also one side of the standoffs have the flat part cut so it will fit in the hole and not spin when the screws goes in.
This was the case with the old Rats, if I'm not mistaking the new production has only round holes, but don't be surprised if you see "D" shaped holes and standoffs, nothing complicated, just match the correct side of the standoff to the correct hole of the liner.
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Appologies for the intrusion, I was reading the previous pages of the thread, but this is not necessarily correct comparing, IMO.
The only Civivi model that is close to the Rat1 blade length is the Praxis, but good part of the blade is dedicated to a useless finger choil.
Praxis is roughly twice the price of the D2 Rat1 and uses 9cr18mov, I'm not going to mention the grind, which have nothing to do with the true flat grind of the Rat1.
Titanium frame lock maybe cool for city use, not so suitable for outdoor knife as the Rat1 was originally designed.
Hogue Deka in Magnacut is great knife but again - have nothing to do as design, compared to the Rat1, just look at the elements of the handle.
See, people like the Rat1 because it is designed to be a working, mostly outdoor knife, size and shape of handle,
size and grind of the blade, angle of the blade to the handle and locking mechanism,
this, along with the price makes the Rat knives desirable for people that are using those, primarily outdoors.
Right now Rat1 in D2 is $40 in BHQ, why would I go for any other brand or model, or steel for this matter if I can get hard to kill beater for this price ?
I've being using the D2 version of Rat1 since they released it and never had issues with edge retention or rust, it's just a great working model.
Chronovore
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Looking at Blade HQ, the Rat 1 has a listed blade length of 3.625".
While none of the S35VN models from Civivi get close to that length, several other current models are close or even longer. Here are most of them by length.
3.5" Baklash, Brazen, Brigand, Chevalier, Dogma, Elementum (Button Lock), Keen Naddler, Riffle, Vexer, Teraxe
3.625" Asticus
3.7" Sinisys
3.75" Shredder, Picaro, Governor, Conspirator, Praxis
3.8" Bullmastiff
3.875" Mastodon
Sure, some of those have sizable choils but so what? It's not like the entirety of the Rat 1 blade is usable either. Blade HQ lists the "cutting edge" of the Rat 1 as 3.25", which is actually smaller than it is for many of the Civivi models listed above. At the end of the day though, will the difference in blade length between any of these make that big a difference in use?
The Rat 1 in D2 goes for $39.95 at BladeHQ. The Praxis in 9Cr18Mov goes for $42.50-$46.50 depending on the handle material.
Also, their 9Cr18Mov is a great EDC steel in this price range.
I don't recall which models have flat versus hollow grinds but how much of a difference does it make? How special is "true flat grind" and how many other knives have that?
Is this true? Exactly how different are liner locks versus frame locks in suitability to outdoor use?
Recon1 also uses S35VN and is even bigger and has better lock, and is around same price.
S35VN is not that much better than AUS8 and D2 to justify such price increase.
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Well... Their choils are useless by design. If you compare it to Spyderco's choils, you'll know why.
And yes, the full length of Rat's edge is usable and don't have finger choil. Your other comparisons are basically apples to oranges, I'm sorry.
Civivi website is the one I was referring for price, the steel they are using in Praxis isn't better than Rat's D2, and even the price you've mentioned is not better than Rat1, considering size, design and blade steel.
Ergos on the Chinese handles are in most cases laughable for work, thin at the spine blade in FFG is much better slicer compared to the grind the named Praxis and most other Chinese models are,
it's just too much to go over every detail comparing Rat1 to a Chinese knife, and it's waste of time really. If you had worked with a Rat1 you would know.
People buy those for a reason, not for objects of conversation. I personally don't care how much you like Chinese knives, but if you like to compare one of those to the Rat1,
compare a knife with relatively the same grind, same blade and handle length and same or better price, it's that simple, all your examples are off, apples to oranges.
Yes, they are Chinese knives that are attractive and decently priced but you can hardly find something even close to the Rat1, if it existed, I'd certainly know about it and probably have 4-5 of those too,
I'm not prejudice, at the time I specifically found a Chinese knock off of Rat1, called Model3, tested it and it's crap, I can go in details if you're interested...
Chronovore
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If you look at my last post, I directly disproved a few of your claims and that stands. Also, I have plenty of experience with both the Rat 1 and Rat 2 (albeit only in AUS-8).
The value or usefulness of choils feels like a separate topic but I wasn't wrong about blade length and/or length of cutting edge.
Speaking of apples and oranges, don't compare the street price of one knife to the manufacturer's website on another. Compare prices at the same dealer, like I did with BladeHQ. You said one model was double the price of the other when in reality, the difference was comparable to the cost of a cup of coffee.
As far as steel, WE does an excellent heat treatment on 9Cr18Mov. I'd put it up against any D2 from China (or Taiwan) any day of the week. Seriously, get both, sharpen them the same way to the same angle, sharpen a few times to get past any issues with factory grinding, and go to town. If you get significantly better edge retention on the D2, I'll buy you that cup of coffee.
Your claim here that the "ergos on the Chinese handles are in most cases laughable for work" is ludicrous. The class of just Civivi knives offers an incredible diversity of ergonomics. Forget Chinese knives in general! Even if the Rat 1 had as good of ergonomics as you seem to think it does, lots of Chinese knives probably have better ergonomics just due to the size of the comparison class.
It's weird that you then want to be super-exclusionary on the comparison class for the Rat 1. Are there any knives from any country that could be compared to the Rat 1?
You seem to put a lot of weight in one youtube channel's results. Pete from Cedric and Ada has tested multiple examples of Civivi 9cr18mov and also D2 from Ontario and got the opposite results as Outpost 76. Same with the Ontario AUS8 vs D2 where Pete's results are pretty much opposite to Outpost76(Pete got significantly better results with D2).As far as steel, WE does an excellent heat treatment on 9Cr18Mov. I'd put it up against any D2 from China (or Taiwan) any day of the week. Seriously, get both, sharpen them the same way to the same angle, sharpen a few times to get past any issues with factory grinding, and go to town. If you get significantly better edge retention on the D2, I'll buy you that cup of coffee.
FWIW, I don't care too much about youtube tests other than being a somewhat questionable point of reference. Not useless exactly, but not gospel either. Maybe Outpost deburred better on the 9cr? Who knows....
I don't own any 9cr18mov, but can say the D2 on my Rat 2 has been very good for holding an edge. I'm sure 9cr18mov would also be very good for what it is as well.
Chronovore
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Not necessarily. His results have largely been in line with my own experiences. Of course, my own use is probably better modeled by cardboard than rope.
That's an important thing to remember with tests. They are only testing what they are testing under a particular set of conditions. I like Outpost76 because he sharpens to 15dps via the same stone progression on a KME, tests multiple edges, tries to control for issues in factory grinding, differentiates fine versus working edge, and also offers commentary on things like deburring.
One reasonable issue with his results is that he takes all these steels out to 1200 grit or wherever he does for testing. While this creates common ground for different steels, and can nicely demonstrate differences in heat treatment on the same steel, how often do you take D2 out that far?
The point you are ignoring is that you can use his results or your own use as separate data points, but declaring one steel to be superior based on that is just missing the big picture, especially as there are other data points that contradict your own.Not necessarily. His results have largely been in line with my own experiences. Of course, my own use is probably better modeled by cardboard than rope.
That's an important thing to remember with tests. They are only testing what they are testing under a particular set of conditions. I like Outpost76 because he sharpens to 15dps via the same stone progression on a KME, tests multiple edges, tries to control for issues in factory grinding, differentiates fine versus working edge, and also offers commentary on things like deburring.
One reasonable issue with his results is that he takes all these steels out to 1200 grit or wherever he does for testing. While this creates common ground for different steels, and can nicely demonstrate differences in heat treatment on the same steel, how often do you take D2 out that far?
I'm sure finishing grit, deburring and a multitude of other factors will change the results. Long story short, what you or someone else experiences with this knife or that knife or steel doesn't make it hard fact across the board.
Chronovore
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Sure. At the same time though, there are places where we can generalize. I think it's very safe to say that the budget D2 from Asia overwhelmingly falls short of expectations based on the D2 in more expensive American knives. I think some people count on more edge retention than it will ever deliver when discussing it in the community. I also tend to see 9Cr18Mov being underrated in general and the WE stuff really is excellent for the part of the budget spectrum where it exists.
Of course, that's edge retention. Corrosion resistance is more definitive but whether or not it matters to a person depends on their circumstances.
If you want to compare the D2 from China vs more expensive American stuff, I'm not sure there is much to say. There is conflicting info out there about the D2 in the Rat series but I'm happy with mine.
Chronovore
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Don't get me wrong. It's not like the Chinese D2 is terrible. It just doesn't have anywhere near the edge retention people often expect based on the reputation or looking at charts for "D2". I've had plenty of knives in Chinese D2 from different companies. On edge retention, it gets into the ballpark with steels like 9Cr18Mov, 14C28N, and VG-10. Who will win a game in that ballpark can depend on a lot of factors. Also, there are other reasons to choose among those steels such as corrosion resistance, ease of sharpening, response to stropping, etc.
I don't have personal experience with the D2 rats. Where they get their D2 is a mystery but I haven't seen anything that really sets it apart from the Chinese stuff. One thing that I do think we can say from various testing is that they do a surprisingly good job with their AUS-8.
That's the thing though. You can try to quantify or promote certain edge retention tests and compare different results, but the thing is that they are in the same ballpark, both in price and performance. I'm never going to choose a knife in this category based on the mixed opinions and generally small differences in performance that these steels might give. I'm going to choose a knife that I like. The type of steel is going to be low on the list of priorities for me in this instance.
I'd like to think most people who are doing even a small amount of research are going to know not to expect premium heat treatment etc. on most production D2 and other steels, especially the budget Chinese stuff. It's not like you are paying a premium. I only have one Chinese knife (QSP Snipe in D2) but haven't used it enough to have made a judgement on edge retention.
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Well, you really didn't. Look at the list with knives you gave as examples, it's a mixture of framelocks and linerlocks, different steels and blade grinds.
None of them even remotely resembles Rat 1' elements.
Maybe, I didn't say anything about it but it is inferior to D2 steel when both are done correctly. I was using my Taiwan made D2 Rat to scrape grout and such work and it holds excellent edge.
I don't look at YT "tests" as anything else but entertainment and maybe some reference material. In vast majority they are not standardized and with all due respect for the mentioned names,
their findings mean only what they found about specific example of a model, steel, bevel angle and type of material they cut.
They are too many variables to say "this steel is better than that steel" because this or that youtuber did some tests.
I don't disagree, never did. Just they don't offer anything close to the Rat1 knife, it's an obvious fact, as design and as price point.
I'm not aware of it. They purposely collected elements for a knife that should be used in specific environment. The result was a knife, very useful also for other "city" tasks,
that's why the Rat is so popular. Rat1 is unique design, reminds me the process Gail Bradly went trough when designing the GB1, another unique and very successful "working" knife.
When you are talking about ergos and Chinese knives - give me example of a Chinese knife that will sort of retain your hand in the handle when pushing forward or pulling back ?
Look at the Rat's handle, there are "guard" up front and "hook" at the pommel that will hold your grip in between, helps if your hand is dirty or wet or whatever.
No Chinese design like this, at least not with blade without choil and for this price point.
When you're talking about why framelocks are not suitable for such work - Ontario created a beautiful blade, absolutely suitable for working in the elements - the Avispa.
It was great "kephard" geometry on the blade, almost identical to the Rat1 geometry of the handle and it was a framelock.
Problem was - they had the bright idea to place the clips over the lock bar and in most cases the knife was absolutely useless, you wouldn't open it onehanded in any case...
Where is the talk about the Avispa now ? People bought it, few installed clips that will not hit the lock bar and used it, but its not a popular knife, nobody mention it anymore.
The smaller size - Zankudo is still frame lock but it is much smaller knife to be taken seriously, not even close comparison with the smaller Rat2 model.
I own and used all of the models I'm talking about.
So the "problem" with framelocks and "bushcraft"( I hate the word) use is not like you cannot use it, of course you can use a framelock out in the elements
and tons of people are doing it very successfully. The problem is redundancy. A framelock is finicky, not everyone does it well as Hinderer in example.
You drop the knife on a stone and you have no guarantees that you won't damage it... Simple liner lock is "protected" more or less and does not have bare metal to touch your skin,
the scales of your choice will give you better grip under any conditions.
Again, IMO you are not comparing correctly your Chinese examples to the Rat1, "very good steel" isn't "tool steel" as D2, "diversity of ergonomics" is not a knife with guard and hook at the pommel
as the Rat have purposely, and none of your examples are cheaper than $40.
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This thread has unfortunately already been there, done that... And it looks like it's doing it again.
You make some excellent points about the RAT that people agree with (just check the likes on the posts), but since it wasn't made by a certain company, it's not going to convince everyone.
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Oh, I'm not trying to convince anyone... I've being using those Rats long enough to convince myself I'm right about some things,
people are entitled of their opinion, I absolutely have no issue with the fact. I have no issue with Chinese made knives,
as long as they are done by legitimate company and are not knockoffs. I have opinion about their designs but we are not talking about this here...
Here are my current Rats, as you can see they are fairly hard used, every one of them, I had probably couple of more, giveaways and such but
from my experience this is a very well designed platform without close analogs and for what they sell those now, one can hardly find better beater for trade work.
people are entitled of their opinion, I absolutely have no issue with the fact. I have no issue with Chinese made knives,
as long as they are done by legitimate company and are not knockoffs. I have opinion about their designs but we are not talking about this here...
Here are my current Rats, as you can see they are fairly hard used, every one of them, I had probably couple of more, giveaways and such but
from my experience this is a very well designed platform without close analogs and for what they sell those now, one can hardly find better beater for trade work.