Axe steel choices, why are most low carbon?

bigsurbob said:
Council Velvicut line uses 5160 at 52-56 HRC.
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And it should be at 57-58 or even harder, in my opinion. Their standard is 1060 and that handles 57 no problem. The steel serves little benefit over 1060 in that hardness range. If taken harder it could support a thinner geometry than 1060 without becoming brittle. At 52 it'll be indistinguishable from 1060.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Andy it should be at 57-58 or even harder, in my opinion. Their standard is 1060 and that handles 57 no problem. The steel serves little benefit over 1060 in that hardness range. If taken harder it could support a thinner geometry than 1060 without becoming brittle. At 52 it'll be indistinguishable from 1060.
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I'll be danged. Bummer. They're not giving those Velvicuts away either, and I got 3. Still like em though. 20220304_095101.jpg
 
Working on an old Stanley hatchet at the moment. Put it in my vise and got a fairly aggressive bastard file. Woops! File just skated over the surface. Off to Plan B: Work Sharp belt system with the Green/Coarse belt. Almost have an edge but not quite.

I'll post a pic when done.
 
It's worth noting that while some antique axes are genuinely too hard to file, it's often a case of either black oxides on the surface preventing the file from biting (scrub it a little with a stone and the file will then bite), a soft or blunt file, or both. Truly "too hard to file" axes are much less common than folks first believe once you take all of those cases out of the equation.
 
This one was pretty hard all the way through. By far the hardest steel I've ever tried to sharpen. Wore out not one but two Green/Coarse belts before I finally got an apex. Then switched to Red/Medium and finished it off. It's now shaving sharp. I probably spent 1- 1 1/2 hours on this thing. Most knives and axes take 10-15 minutes, tops.

Now I definitely need to get a Brown or Epstein leather sheath for it.
 
I find Worksharps underpowered for axe refurbishing, myself. I usually find they take a bit of stock removal on my 2x72 before they're sufficiently thin again.
 
I was very tempted to take it to my 2x72 as well but decided to stick with the tortoise method. My first hatchet wasn't nearly as hard nor took nearly as long. But it's a cheap china-made POS.
 
Lots of good info in this thread, THANKS!

So, where and how do I find a good 5160 axe that bites and cuts really well? The German axes I have sharpen and tune up easily with a Lansky puck which is super helpful in some hard to access places but, I would rather deal with a hard to sharpen axe in the field than constantly reaching for a Lansky puck to deal with a dull edge.

Or, would I need to buy one of the Council Tool 5160 axes and then send it off for a secondary heat treat and rehandle?

In terms of cost, with the Scandanavian options running ~$150 on average and the German options I have all being ~$120, I'm not really trying to use the common hardware store "1060" axes which I find to have poor shapes for what I want to do. Specifically, I am NOT looking for a single axe to cut and split.

The Ochsenkopf Iltis (https://www.ochsenkopf.com/en-de/myth-ochsenkopf/high-performance-axe-iltis) I have cuts really well but, is so soft! Something similar that is really hard runs the risk of chipping out but, I'm not using it on frozen wood, and it is on me if I hit a metal post or rock. Buried nails and similar things are not something I have run into yet.
 
I'd not worry about 5160 specifically. Again, your issue is chiefly with the heat treatment not being as hard as you want. I already mentioned a number of good hard axes, but if none of those tickle your fancy go ahead and just have someone re-treat the head of your choice and you'll be good. So long as they know the steel grade they'll be able to heat treat it appropriately to the hardness you want.
 
Square_peg said:
The eye of an axe can't be terribly hard or it will split on impact or even during hanging - I've done it. The bit can be harder up to a point. It's an impact tool and has to balance toughness with edge holding ability. It has to be sharpenable with simple tools as one might have on the farm or at a logging camp.

Since at least the 1700s it's been common to see axe bodies made of softer material with high carbon bits forge weled and later electro-welded to those softer axe bodies.

Some makers even used very high carbon 'razor steel', which back then usually meany at least 100 points of carbon but could range up to 120 or even 140 points of carbon (i.e. - 1.4% carbon). Hurds advertised their 'Razor Axe' as having the finest steel available for an axe bit. Sear Roebuck's Fulton brand also marketed an 'Razor Axe' with a very high carbon steel. I imagine these must have been well tempered back to avoid cracking and chipping but would have retained excellent abrasion resistance.
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One of the current straight razor manufactures uses a .60 carbon steel and probably always has.

I think the Sheffield Silver Steel was 1095 equivalent.

Types of Metals Used for Straight Razors

straightrazors.com straightrazors.com


There are many types of carbon steel used in the manufacturing of Straight Razors. Here are a few:

  • O1
  • 1055
  • 1060
  • 1070
  • 1080
  • 1095
  • 5160


Much like axes no need for anything crazy for straight razor steel. Just a RC in high fifties to low sixties and they are good to go.
 
bigsurbob said:
Council Velvicut line uses 5160 at 52-56 HRC.
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Not really directed at you Bob so please don't take it that way.

Why is there such a big range here, 52-56 RC, really?

No way are they producing axes like that with modern heat treating methods. Do they have a blind guy under the dim light of the forge judging colors?
 
garry3 said:
Not really directed at you Bob so please don't take it that way.

Why is there such a big range here, 52-56 RC, really?

No way are they producing axes like that with modern heat treating methods. Do they have a blind guy under the dim light of the forge judging colors?
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None taken!

I got that info straight from Council's website.

  • Forged from 5160 grade alloy steel. “Council” is displayed on one side of the head, and the other is proudly marked “USA”.
  • Bit and poll is heat treated and quenched approximately 1 in. from the cutting edge, then tempered for maximum edge holding and toughness. Final hardness Rc 52-56.
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Disappointing.

Are they on Bladeforums? Can they explain themselves?
 
It has to do with variations in temperature based on the specific head's location in the heat treatment ovens, both in initial heating/quenching and in tempering. Not all spots in batch heat treatment set ups are a uniform temperature, and it seems like Council's current equipment is more variable than one might hope. However, such equipment is very expensive so while it would be ideal for them to upgrade it to bring that variability down, it's not as easy as popping down to the local hardware store and picking up a new rig.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Most companies have a hardness range of 2-3 points scattered around their target hardness, so while their range is larger than typical, it's also not by much.
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That is their premium axe with the biggest swing in the industry? And there is quite a difference in four points of RC hardness.

Their regular line...

"Council Tool internal standards call for tempered bit hardness of Rc 48-55 and we target 1-1/4 inches from the cutting edge."


Did GB soften their axes. This is what they used to say.
"The hardness of the bit is measured, 57 Rockwell C, and every single head is tested by a smith who, with a big hammer, strikes on the edge’s corners. If the blade does not break the head is good."

Helkjo--The blade edges are hardened to approximately 53-56 HRC


Wetterlings listed their axe at 57 RwC.

I don't know about HB and the only axes of theirs I own are vintage.
 
garry3 said:
That is their premium axe with the biggest swing in the industry? And there is quite a difference in four points of RC hardness.

Their regular line...

"Council Tool internal standards call for tempered bit hardness of Rc 48-55 and we target 1-1/4 inches from the cutting edge."


Did GB soften their axes. This is what they used to say.
"The hardness of the bit is measured, 57 Rockwell C, and every single head is tested by a smith who, with a big hammer, strikes on the edge’s corners. If the blade does not break the head is good."

Helkjo--The blade edges are hardened to approximately 53-56 HRC


Wetterlings listed their axe at 57 RwC.

I don't know about HB and the only axes of theirs I own are vintage.
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I'm not sure what your point of confusion is. The info you posted confirms my statement. I agree there's a big difference in 4 points of hardness. When I said "not by much" it's reference to how much larger their spread is compared to others in the industry, that being a 4 point spread as opposed to the more typical 3 point spread. The stated hardness for Wetterlings is target hardness, not the hardness range.

Regarding the 7 point spread of hardness for the standard line, that's not saying that's what the actual tested hardness range is, just what they consider as "within standards". As in if it is considered as faulty or not.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
I'm not sure what your point of confusion is. The info you posted confirms my statement. I agree there's a big difference in 4 points of hardness. When I said "not by much" it's reference to how much larger their spread is compared to others in the industry, that being a 4 point spread as opposed to the more typical 3 point spread. The stated hardness for Wetterlings is target hardness, not the hardness range.

Regarding the 7 point spread of hardness for the standard line, that's not saying that's what the actual tested hardness range is, just what they consider as "within standards". As in if it is considered as faulty or not.
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Not confused at all. I was just saying....
 
garry3 said:
There are many types of carbon steel used in the manufacturing of Straight Razors. Here are a few:

  • O1
  • 1055
  • 1060
  • 1070
  • 1080
  • 1095
  • 5160
Click to expand...

But that wasn't always the case. 100+ years ago razors were made with very high carbon steels with 100 or more points of carbon. At least one maker was still making razors recently with 135 points of carbon.
www.badgerandblade.com

Theirs Issard C135 steel v. Historical forgings steel

After my 6/8 DIW TI in C135 steel has arrived it fairly quickly convinced me to get another Theirs Issard razor (untreatable stage of RAD). Does anyone have any experience with TI Historic straight razors such as: http://www.rasurpur.de/english/shop/shop.html? How do they perform in compressing...
www.badgerandblade.com www.badgerandblade.com
 
garry3 said:
Not confused at all. I was just saying....
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Ah. You phrased it as a question, and that threw me off. :)

Square_peg said:
But that wasn't always the case. 100+ years ago razors were made with very high carbon steels with 100 or more points of carbon. At least one maker was still making razors recently with 135 points of carbon.
www.badgerandblade.com

Theirs Issard C135 steel v. Historical forgings steel

After my 6/8 DIW TI in C135 steel has arrived it fairly quickly convinced me to get another Theirs Issard razor (untreatable stage of RAD). Does anyone have any experience with TI Historic straight razors such as: http://www.rasurpur.de/english/shop/shop.html? How do they perform in compressing...
www.badgerandblade.com www.badgerandblade.com
Click to expand...
And then we realized it wasn't at all necessary. From what I can tell the C135 is mostly marketing playing off the false notion that more carbon is inherently harder/better. I suspect, in fact, that if there was any advantage to be had in the use of extra high carbon content it was probably because of inserted bit construction requiring raising the steel to welding heat, and the extra carbon ensuring it didn't lose too much through burning off. But otherwise plain medium carbon steels are able to achieve hardness that's actually excessive for the tool. Steels with more than 0.8% carbon at the time of heat treatment are more finicky to heat treat correctly so for most tools 1080 or less is better to minimize failure rate.
 
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