Axe steel choices, why are most low carbon?

jake pogg said:
It's a tricky,loaded term,"cast"...So are many others,as used in advertisement of yore...Just look at that (cool) catalog page alone,at how the word "forged" is used: "Forged"-"Forged steel"-"Forged from a good quality steel"-"Forged from a special analysis steel"-"Hand forged"-there's a topic nearby currently where the emotionally-charged side of "hand-forged" comes out :)-but what does any of it Mean,exactly ?!

Does some/all of that come from Commerce,or does it go further back,to that eternal habit all metalworkers had for Mystifying?

You're right,it appears that "cast" has,of old,this less-than connotation.... However,with the advent of Huntsman,the "crucible steel process,many of the best tools displayed "cast steel" proudly,front and center.

I've tried my best to make head or tail of it all,honestly. White and grey cast iron,ledeburite and malleable,lamellar stucture or...(the other one!:)...All just ended up a hodge-podge in me poor brain.

CAN one make a cast iron axe-head? I can see the eye holding up,but what about the edge? My Vulcan anvil is cast iron,with a steel face cast Into the body,an innovative,proprietary American process that was the state of the art in it's day,so maybe something similar?

And cast Steel head-how exactly would that differ from forged? Why "finest cast steel" is the best,and says so on the most expensive plane-irons then available,but a cast head be somehow inferior?

I'm at a loss,frankly.
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I believe Marion Tool came up with 2 alloys used for casting of their tools: Crecoite and later Crafcoite. FTC complaint page 151 https://www.google.com/books/editio...s+misleading&pg=RA1-PA151&printsec=frontcover
 
Jake, I’ve had cast tools crack or break on me before. Not axe heads, but a $100 rabbet plane I had just bought, walking to my truck and the box wasn’t securely closed. Dropped about 36” onto asphalt and cracked almost clear through. Profanity was uttered, in fact I utter a little just recalling it.

I’ve dropped forged tools like chisels and hammers off roofs and third story balconies, went down and got them with a scratch or scuff.

Maybe that’s apples to oranges. Or maybe there’s fragile and tough cast steel. But I can’t help suspecting that forged tools are stronger/more durable.

Parker
 
catspa said:
Maybe that’s apples to oranges. Or maybe there’s fragile and tough cast steel. But I can’t help suspecting that forged tools are stronger/more durable.
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Well,Yes,and Definitely Yes,let me try to tell what little i understand about cast Iron (not steel) in general:

Iron comes by All kinds of Carbon honestly-when heated to liquidus it grabs it from the CO and CO2 gases that are generated by heating the mix.

It's recommended that one thinks of Iron and Carbon as Tea and Sugar. There's only so much sugar will dissolve in your tea,after which that extra sugar will hang out at bottom of your cup.

Iron can accommodate somewhere between 1.1-1.2% C,after which that extra Carbon will no longer Fit in between the molecules,and that extra C then takes it's place along the Grain Boundaries.
(a reminder that each grain is a perfect crystalline lattice,formed when that alloy has last reached Austenitic T).

Hanging out there at them boundaries the Carbon (in whatever shape,and it can take Many-plates(lamellae),angular grains,needle-like structure and God knows what-all) that C ruins the molecular bonds that basically hold your material together,making that alloy-the object made out of it rather-Weaker.

However-that Weakness that so much C at the boundaries creates is a Good thing,as it allows that material to expand and contract (say Thermally) without tweaking and permanent distortion.

So,engine blocks are cast iron,because they get hot and cold et c. and the alignment of the parts is critical.
Cast-iron pans are cast iron:),'cos so the bottom don't bow as it expands under our flapjack there,under high heat.
In other words that weakness is much like a riveted connection-something that is capable of movement,to prevent distortion.

And that (i think) why plane bodies are cast,it's so the sole remains Perfectly flat,as machined.
(also,they're a complicated shape,probably difficult and expensive to machine out of a solid,or forge,God forbid...).

The Definition of Cast Iron i believe is around 4-5%,but that's where the similarities end-the exact shape of C particles apparently makes All the difference in the world......
 
crbnSteeladdict said:
https://www.google.com/books/editio...=crecoite+alloy&pg=PA1217&printsec=frontcover
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Wow!

Now i'm Properly lost!:)

The competitors brought a suit against Marion saying that Crecoite was not Steel...And Marion defends itself saying that it's not Cast Iron,nor Malleable Iron,nor Malleable (Wrought) Iron,and so,the definition of Ferrous Alloys including only those 3 plus Steel,theirs must then be Steel as these preceding 3 "having definite characteristics differentiating these from the respondent's product"! :)

That's Way cool,and i thank you as always for your research,CrbnSteeladdict!
 
catspa said:
a $100 rabbet plane I had just bought, walking to my truck and the box wasn’t securely closed. Dropped about 36” onto asphalt and cracked almost clear through. Profanity was uttered, in fact I utter a little just recalling it.
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I hear that,and grieve along with you,it absolutely blows to loose a tool for some unnecessary,ridiculous reason...:(

I don't know if these academic discussions` on the nature of cast iron/steel help any...Probably not.

If perchance you still have that plane body,it's possible to have it brazed (or possibly silver-,or hard-soldered).
Many underestimate the strength of a brazed or soldered joint;if one looks at actual numbers the strength is not all that far from arc,and all other electric welding methods....
 
catspa said:
Jake, I’ve had cast tools crack or break on me before. Not axe heads, but a $100 rabbet plane I had just bought, walking to my truck and the box wasn’t securely closed. Dropped about 36” onto asphalt and cracked almost clear through. Profanity was uttered, in fact I utter a little just recalling it.

I’ve dropped forged tools like chisels and hammers off roofs and third story balconies, went down and got them with a scratch or scuff.

Maybe that’s apples to oranges. Or maybe there’s fragile and tough cast steel. But I can’t help suspecting that forged tools are stronger/more durable.

Parker
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When I hear "cast" my mind automatically goes to those cheap vintage axes. Maybe it had somthing to do with a cheap steel and cooling in the molds but those old ones could be really bad. I know it's not like that today.

The old cast steel heads are not at all uncommon around here. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if Jake has never seen one. I just can't see someone from that part of the country cheaping out on a tool that was probably so important to their survival.
 
J. Lippincott 1860 patent for making axe heads by casting metal/iron into a mold:
Z24tz9X.jpg

https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&idkey=NONE&SectionNum=3&HomeUrl=&docid=0027227

The patent describes including a "cast-steel" bit.


Bob
 
"Cast Steel" referred typically to crucible process, which gave the highest quality in its day. That steel was then processed into bars using processes that qualify as forging. All modern steel is first cast, then forged into stock, typically by rolling. This imparts grain flow to the stock that can be thought of as being analogous to wood grain, being weaker with the axis and stronger across it. As-cast it has no directional flow to the grain, which can actually make some parts stronger than forged in certain contexts, if properly cast.

Cast iron breaks easily because it has SO much carbon in it that it precipitates out as laminar graphite flakes, like a stack of paper, which are brittle and transfer microscopic cracks in the steel from strain directly through the graphite. Ductile iron is just cast iron that has been given a heat treatment process that causes the graphite to precipitate out as spheres instead of laths, and stop cracks in the steel substrate like a hole drilled at the end of a crack in wood, plastic, etc. which allows it to withstand much greater plastic deformation than cast iron otherwise could. Cast iron is used for plane bodies because the graphite causes the metal to cast smoother than steel (leading to fewer defects where the mold failed to fill completely etc.), planes are low-impact tools generally, and cast iron machines easier since the graphite acts like a dry lubricant in the process.

In the context of the specific catalog page referenced above, the model in question is cheap enough compared to all the others that it very likely is cast, but the language is probably deliberately obfuscating because it would have been a very inferior product at the time. Casting technology during the golden era of axe manufacture was not nearly as good as it is these days. We're now able to use things like neutral gas shielding during pouring, vacuum assist, temperature-regulated molds, modeling software to optimize sprue placement, and so on, to achieve densities that were previously unattainable. Old cast stuff usually had to be made extra thick to hold up well because of the potential presence of voids and inclusions formed in the material during casting and cooling. Much less an issue these days if proper methods are used. Hybrid forged castings are an increasingly common thing where a cast near-net blank that captures the lower-strain but more complex-to-form aspects is produced and the remaining high-strain areas forged to final shape.
 
rjdankert said:
J. Lippincott 1860 patent for making axe heads by casting metal/iron into a mold:
Z24tz9X.jpg

https://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&idkey=NONE&SectionNum=3&HomeUrl=&docid=0027227

The patent describes including a "cast-steel" bit.


Bob
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I came across a boys axe head a few years ago at a second hand store that had been beat to death and was coming apart. The bit was exactly like that drawing. It had a 1960's vibe to it. I might have been mistaken on the age and the red paint some time in it's past threw me.
 
Here is a Shapleigh Hardware add selling cheap cast iron shingling hatchets. Not sure I could tell them apart from cast steel.

Some of these hardware stores also sold toy hatchets in the same pattern. Not sure if I have one to compare but I would guess cast iron?

23..
 
Yeah,that catalog page above is a good example of how utterly confusing the "trade" language can be...ALL over the map with terms...

garry3 said:
Not sure I could tell them apart from cast steel.
Click to expand...

And just to add to confusion,another important difference:

"Cast Steel" in older tools,pre-Bessemer, always just the welded-in edge (unless the tool was very small,like a straight-razor or a very tiny spokeshave blade et c.) meant the steel obtained in a Huntsman,or "crucible" process: A small-batch crucible smelt,the cost and the hassle of this process were very high,output very low,but the quality VERY high...
(unsurprisingly,with all that fussiness).

Later,with advent of the Bessemer and other more advanced steel-making processes,cast steel meant just what it spells out to be-a casting of mass-produced steel alloy.

garry3 said:
I came across a boys axe head a few years ago at a second hand store that had been beat to death and was coming apart. The bit was exactly like that drawing. It had a 1960's vibe to it. I might have been mistaken on the age and the red paint some time in it's past threw me.
Click to expand...

It would be neat to use one of these old bits to weld into an axe-head, maybe re-blade some worn but worthwhile older head with it.
It'd be an exercise in sentimentality,mostly,as i doubt that even any of that older,"crucible" steel would be an improvement on modern alloys,but just for giggles.
 
jake pogg said:
Yeah,that catalog page above is a good example of how utterly confusing the "trade" language can be...ALL over the map with terms...



And just to add to confusion,another important difference:

"Cast Steel" in older tools,pre-Bessemer, always just the welded-in edge (unless the tool was very small,like a straight-razor or a very tiny spokeshave blade et c.) meant the steel obtained in a Huntsman,or "crucible" process: A small-batch crucible smelt,the cost and the hassle of this process were very high,output very low,but the quality VERY high...
(unsurprisingly,with all that fussiness).

Later,with advent of the Bessemer and other more advanced steel-making processes,cast steel meant just what it spells out to be-a casting of mass-produced steel alloy.



It would be neat to use one of these old bits to weld into an axe-head, maybe re-blade some worn but worthwhile older head with it.
It'd be an exercise in sentimentality,mostly,as i doubt that even any of that older,"crucible" steel would be an improvement on modern alloys,but just for giggles.
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There are no shortages of old axes that could use a new bit. Finding a donor axe for the bit is something that never entered my mind though. Perhaps an old two piece with a smashed eye?

I wonder if telling the difference between cast iron and cast steel might be as simple as ringing the head? Tapping it with a hammer.

This thread reminded me I have this odd duck of a DBL bit.

A cast head of high speed tool steel. Made in Green Bay Wis by the Highspeed Tool Steel Co.

IMG_4697[1]

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2ndn6Jg]IMG_4695[1]

[url=https://flic.kr/p/2ndseEA]IMG_4698[1]
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
"Cast Steel" referred typically to crucible process, which gave the highest quality in its day. That steel was then processed into bars using processes that qualify as forging. All modern steel is first cast, then forged into stock, typically by rolling. This imparts grain flow to the stock that can be thought of as being analogous to wood grain, being weaker with the axis and stronger across it. As-cast it has no directional flow to the grain, which can actually make some parts stronger than forged in certain contexts, if properly cast.

Cast iron breaks easily because it has SO much carbon in it that it precipitates out as laminar graphite flakes, like a stack of paper, which are brittle and transfer microscopic cracks in the steel from strain directly through the graphite. Ductile iron is just cast iron that has been given a heat treatment process that causes the graphite to precipitate out as spheres instead of laths, and stop cracks in the steel substrate like a hole drilled at the end of a crack in wood, plastic, etc. which allows it to withstand much greater plastic deformation than cast iron otherwise could. Cast iron is used for plane bodies because the graphite causes the metal to cast smoother than steel (leading to fewer defects where the mold failed to fill completely etc.), planes are low-impact tools generally, and cast iron machines easier since the graphite acts like a dry lubricant in the process.

In the context of the specific catalog page referenced above, the model in question is cheap enough compared to all the others that it very likely is cast, but the language is probably deliberately obfuscating because it would have been a very inferior product at the time. Casting technology during the golden era of axe manufacture was not nearly as good as it is these days. We're now able to use things like neutral gas shielding during pouring, vacuum assist, temperature-regulated molds, modeling software to optimize sprue placement, and so on, to achieve densities that were previously unattainable. Old cast stuff usually had to be made extra thick to hold up well because of the potential presence of voids and inclusions formed in the material during casting and cooling. Much less an issue these days if proper methods are used. Hybrid forged castings are an increasingly common thing where a cast near-net blank that captures the lower-strain but more complex-to-form aspects is produced and the remaining high-strain areas forged to final shape.
Click to expand...
My understanding of cast iron is these graphite flakes can become like ribbons through the material. Which is why cast iron is so strong in compression, the graphite can absorb/withstand compressive forces, such as in an engine block.

It also explains why cast iron is very weak in tension, these same flakes/ribbons are perfect area for cracks to form and propagate.
 
sodak said:
My understanding of cast iron is these graphite flakes can become like ribbons through the material. Which is why cast iron is so strong in compression, the graphite can absorb/withstand compressive forces, such as in an engine block.

It also explains why cast iron is very weak in tension, these same flakes/ribbons are perfect area for cracks to form and propagate.
Click to expand...
More like 3D rosettes or dendrites. There's a good overview here.
 
I don’t know beans about the metallurgy, but I believe that Browning changed the steel frames of their Fabrique Nationale High Power to accommodate the 40 cal cartridge. Apparently the forged steel frames were fine for the 9mm, but did not hold up too well with a 40. The cast steel was better able to deal with the battering of the slide against the frame. Cast steel can be tough if done right.
 
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