Backpacking/Climbing Knives of the 1960s, 70s and 80s?

[Jack Black]

I loved Viet Nam jungle boots. Not for hiking, for on the job. The steel plate was meant to protect GIs from punji sticks. It protected me from nails in my feet.

I had a pair of those! I was very surprised to see them in the window of an army surplus shop in a small English town in 1979. They only had one pair, brand new, in my (large) size, and I think they were having difficulty selling them as I got them at a great price

I was just having a look through a mid-70's copy of 'Walking, hiking & backpacking' by Anthony Greenbank to see what it had to say about knives. Tony was certainly not anti-knife, he'd published two 'survival' books prior to this, so I was surprised to find no mention of pocket-knives at all in the book. I sent Elliott a much older climbing tome, which had some rather comical suggestions in terms of equipment, but can't recall if knives were covered.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I started carrying a Montgomery Wards authorized BSA knife about 1961.

Never heard of such a critter, but BSA literature in pretty bad and the two standard references are incomplete. Can you furnish details of its appearance? BSA shield? Montgomery Ward, like Sears, sold "Scout" pattern slippies for sure.

 

[pinnah]

I don't remember seeing SAKs in Sheffield in the 60's. The first time I can remember seeing them on sale was at the beginning of the 80's, but they may have been sold outside Sheffield (which had plenty of home-made cutlery then). Opinels I can remember seeing in the 70's, and they were advertised in the UK outdoor press in the 70's and 80's, as well as being sold in outdoor shops and outdoor stores. First time I bought an Opinel was when I lived in France in 1991.

Jack, this would be a great time to tell us more about Opinel's advertising and the connection with the stress on the Sheffield knife industry.

I'll even send e-beer of the internetz!

 

[pinnah]

So, I want to thank you all for your comments and insights. Here's my summary of what I've heard along with some of my favorite quotes.

By all means, if anybody has more stories to share, please do.

1960s
-----
+ American traditional slipjoints in common use
+ American hunting and WWII surplus fixed blades in use
+ Buck lockbacks just appearing
+ SAKs not common
+ Knives typically purchased at hardware stores, hunting suppliers and military surplus.
+ Harvey Manning recommends a Boy Scout knife in "Freedom of the Hills"

"As far as knives go I would have been carrying an Ulster Old Timer that my dad got through an offer on a tin of tobacco in 1964 or so for $2.00. I also had a small Case fixed blade, similar to the Finn. (snip...) My dad usually carried a knife that he brought back from WW2. It was a military issue I believe. (snip...) I'd say that most knives that were carried during the 60s came from Hardware stores, Army/Navy Stores or mail order from outfitters like Herter's. - Peregrin (BK Traditional)

"I can't for the life of me remember what I took when I started backpacking in the late 60's. I know I would have had a little Utica Cutlery slipjoint (my grandfather was the VP of UC then) but I recall a larger fixed blade knife I had." CSG (BK Traditional)

"But in the 60's, you could see a bit of anything on the trail. Old Imperial barrows, scout knives, some surplus store sheath knives, Mercator K55's, surplus TL-29's. In the 1960's you saw some of the Buck knives, but then it had become the fashion to have a Buck knife in it's pouch on the belt." - jackknife (BK Traditional)

"I have a Freedom of the Hills 2cd ed from Dec 1967. He recommends the old boy-scout type utility knife. I bought the book (at an antique store) because it opened to that paragraph.
"For special purposes a hunting knife is superior, as are double-bitted axes, cavalry sabers, Gatling guns, and dynamite, but a modest mountaineer contents himself with a modest blade." (p.27) My first SAK was bought in Switzerland in 1967, and was a marvelous novelty in Kalamazoo at that time. - scrteened porch (BK Traditional)

"When I first started going on hikes and hunts in the outdoors it was in the early to mid-1960's with my Dad, who always carried an Imperial M-4 bayonet that came home from the Army with him in the mid-1950's (I own it now). My first general purpose outdoor knives for all outdoor use (hiking, camping, Scouts, etc.) began with a blue handled Official Cub Scout knife around 1962, followed by a brown handled Official Boy Scout knife around 1966 (the blue one got handed down to my little brother) - those two came from the local BSA distributor, J.C. Penney Co. In 1966 I received my first fixed blade knife for Christmas from my parents, a Black Beauty F66 by Western." - Old Hunter (BK Traditional)


1970s
-----
+ American traditional slipjoints still in use
+ SAK in common use
+ Buck lockbacks in use
+ Opinel in use, but not common
+ Colin Fletcher endorses the SAK in "The Complete Walker"

"The 70's found me playing in the mountains in colorado skiing/climbing/backpacking and hunting- the swiss army knife was always along (since replaced by the Leatherman) and the big heavy Buck folder was our standard." - chuckM (BK Traditional)

"As I recall during the 70s when backpacking became kind of a fad... (snip...) There was a lot of European equipment in the stores. I was a Scout at the time and interested in both backpacking and more traditional outdoors activities. I felt that I needed a SAK for such activities and so did most of my peers. I saw Opinels in the backpacking stores as well as Gerber folders, which were the closest to tacticool at the time. So, an Ulster Scout was among my first knives (Scout should have a Scout knife right) and a SAK huntsman followed, in part because it was the more advanced backpacking knife." - MarkPinTx (BK Traditional)

"The first camping knife I specifically remember would have been my Buck 110 that I bought in 1974 when I became a deputy sheriff." - CKG (BK Traditional)

"I do remember that a standard piece of my backpacking gear [in the 70s] was a red SAK. It was as much a standard item as my sierra cup." - knarfeng (BK Traditional)

"During the early 1970s I use to take along an Edgebrand hunting knife and a Valor brand trapper." - not2sharp (BK Traditional)

"By the 1970's, Colin Fletcher had published the first of his many "Complete Walker" books that became the bible for many of the granola bar crowd, and the red hand SAK had became king. We had a few chains on the east coast, Eastern Mountain Sports, Hudson Trail Outfitters, and a few non chain backpacking and mountain stores. They all had the shiny display of the SAK's up by the register, and after a while it became like a badge of some sort, like the granola bars in the Kelty pack and waffle stomper boots that laced to the toe." - jackknife (BK Traditional)

"Growing up in NH I did a lot of backpack camping in the White Mountains and along the rivers in the northern parts of the state in the '70's. just carried what I had, a Buck 112 on the belt. Got it in a local hardware store back when I was a young teen." - sitflyer (BK Traditional)

1980s
-----
+ SAKs in common use and sold in backpacking stores
+ Leatherman style multitools appear
+ Buck style lock backs still in use
+ Hunting fixed blades still in use
+ Opinels available but not common

"Later Boy Scout days [1980s]: moved to AK, camping and backpacking year-round: Buck 112 and Buck 102...I had one or the other on for every trip. - Liberando (BK Traditional)

"I saw Opinels in Dallas at a backpacking stote called mountain hideout. typical euro/patagonia/north face backpacking store of the 80s." - MarkPinTx (BF Traditional)

"I just remembered my first SAK; I bought it at the Fort Bragg NC PX when I was a company commander (1981-84)" - Old Hunter (BK Traditional)

"In the 80's (high school) I got more into actual backpacking and some Whitetail Bow hunting. I never went anywhere without a SAK of some sort, Hunters and Tinkers mostly (even to school!!!). I took these along on camping and backpacking trips." - billym (BK Traditional)

 

[halfaxe]

Very interesting thread. Another thing I remember from the 1970's is the drop point ascendency. It started to displace the clip point in fixed blades and single blade folders in popularity.

 

[Jack Black]

Jack, this would be a great time to tell us more about Opinel's advertising and the connection with the stress on the Sheffield knife industry.

I'll even send e-beer of the internetz!

Thanks for the cyber-beer my friend, it's been a long stressful day for me here, so I could use it :thumbup:

It's a shame I don't have the old 70's and 80's climbing and outdoor magazines I used to have to provide illustrations!

When I was a boy in Sheffield, the city's factories were still churning out pocket-knives, but outside the point of sale Richards cards, and one or two other pieces, I don't ever recall seeing any advertising for them. The first magazine advertising I can recall seeing was for Opinel knives, and this was in the Sunday colour supplements of mainstream newspapers and in the newspapers themselves. This would have been in the late 60's, and I have no recollection of who placed the advertising, but they played up the 'rustic charm' of the Opinel, which fitted in very much with the time in England. As far as I recall the adverts mentioned the handle material, the weight, and the supposed 'razor-sharp' edge. It wasn't long before I started to see Opinels appear and being carried as picnic knives, bought I suspect by people who wouldn't have bought ANY knife without the marketing. At the time Sheffield knives didn't have a good image, most of those who'd handled one had probably only had a Richards (the British Imperial). The Opinels were probably a bit more expensive than most Sheffield knives produced at the time.

I don't recall seeing much if any SAK advertising here, apart from the point of sale leaflets and displays, when the specialist outdoor shop began to appear, but nothing in the way of magazine advertising so far as I can remember. Perhaps they didn't feel they needed it, though for the past three or four decades here, Victorinox have primarily been distributed by a very quirky gardening supplier, that has never really pushed any of the products it wholesales by way of advertising. This company also distributed Opinel and Normark at various times too, but Opinel have mainly been distributed by a specialist knife wholesaler.

The Opinel magazine advertising continued through the 70's, 80's, and beyond, and I would see it in the fishing press, the climbing and hiking press, and in the 'survivalist'/bushcraft and shooting press. Usually it was just quarter page ads, similiar in design to the earlier advertising, and I have to say one of the things that galled me at the time was the talk of the 'razor sharp edge', which Opinels will certainly take, but you have to sharpen them first. Then there was the ‘Vibrobloc’ ‘safety mechanism’, which of course made the knives far safer than those dangerous old slipjoints.

Throughout this period, the British knife industry was on its knees, with few people interested in the old-fashioned looking slipjoints produced. The Opinel was 'traditional', 'rustic', but never old-fashioned, and it was marketed in a way that the Sheffield cutlers were too clueless or lazy to emulate. Also, and even despite having fought a war against France in the same century (see for example England's Last War Against France by Colin Smith), which is almost unknown here, the British have, for the most part, long been great Francophiles, or at least seduced by a marketing illusion. For example, for years here an appalling lager, which is actually a cheap and very ordinaire beer in France, was not only sold extremely successfully, but sold as a premium beer, which was "reassuringly expensive", and promoted by a heavy marketing campaign featuring characters straight out of Manon D'Source! So, whereas the imports from the far East were regarded with scorn, as not only lacking quality, but unpatriotic, and the Sheffield knives were clunky things like grandad carried, the Opinel was tres chic and de rigeur. In my opinion, Sheffield slipjoints, despite all my criticisms of the modern Sheffield cutlery business, were (and are) not only superior to this gallic interloper, but they provided better value for money (being in the same price bracket).

Can I have another beer to wash down the bile and bitterness please?

Jack

 

[22-rimfire]

SAK's were around but not well known at least in my circles. Few had money for all the toys that we commonly see these days.

I got my first SAK in the mid-1980's when I was headed out of the country for an extended period. Needed a non-threatening knife that was useful.

Customs weren't common. Randalls were "THE KNIFE" if you could afford one.

I carried a Case Barlow and later a trapper pattern. Still have essentially the same preferences in slip joints although I lean toward larger slippies now.

Buck knives were common as were Schrade and Camillus. Puma was a fairly expensive choice.

Gerbers appeared in the 80's as I recall or at least that's when I first noticed them. Used to go to Cutlery Stores in malls in the 70's. They have all dissappeared for the most part.

 

[pinnah]

I suggest something hoppy to wash away bitterness!

<Dave slides Jack a nice e-IPA>

I can see now why your feelings about Opinels mirrors mine about SAKs. In both cases, local industry stumbled and a combination of factors allowed a single external product to rise to the top.

One of the things that really interests me in asking this question is that (imo) this time period is when backpacking and climbing first emerged as defineable sports and then as industries. There were obviously camping books prior the 1960s but the advent and availability of lightweight materials allows backpacking (as opposed to camping, hiking or tramping) to become really viable. Here's an interesting write up on the emergence of lightweight packs in the very late 50s.
http://www.oregonphotos.com/Warmlite1.html

And another: http://www.adventure16.com/category.asp?itemid=441

Actually the Adventure 16 history is really critical to the history of backpacking knives in the US and I believe to the rise of the SAK in particular. It was pointed out to me in another forum where I asked the same question that A16 (as they are known) became a wholesale distributor in the 1980s and I get the sense that it was the emergence of distributors like A16 that started the consolidation of product availability among the mom & pop mountain stores. If a product like the Victorinox knives (or Nalgene bottles or Silva compasses) got picked up by A16 or another emerging distributor, it's a good bet it would ride the wave to becoming a standard fixture.

So, the question of the SAKs and the American BSA/Camper is why did Victorinox get picked up by distributors like A16 while, say, the Ulster utility knife did not? Ulster, as a brand, died what? in the late 70s? My sense is there were a lot of factors at play here. I'm not sure the US makers really understood or embraced backpacking and climbing as a targeted niche. I honestly don't think they do to this day, certainly not among the traditional manufacturers like Buck or Case, anyhow. And perhaps are part of the ethos of the US backpacking explosion of the 70s was more anti-traditional and more politically distant from cultural stories (like hunting and the US military) which then opened the door for a neutral modern knife like the SAK. Speculating.

Putting the question back to your side of the pond, was there any reasonable hope that the Sheffield knives could have successfully the backpacking and climbing market in England & Scotland during the 70s and 80s? (Still have visions of my buddy's Karrimor Joe Brown climbing pack and still have hopes of getting my hands on a Buffalo systems sweater at some point. Townsend's books and blog are great.)

I would be particularly interested in what traditional Sheffield knives from the 70s would have been the best bets for the climbing and backpacking scenes.

[very far off topic, your comment about the Brits being closet Francophiles is very interesting. I've plenty to say about the interactions between the classic British Clubman style bikes and the French rando designs, but that needs a different forum and more ale. I'll toss in with the Brits on that one!!! In fact it's astonishing to me that I carry a French knife given my distaste for French bikes.]

 

[Killinumsoftly]

I wasn't around climbing or mountaineering back then but the guy who taught me a lot about mountaineering was big into climbing and mountaineering in the 70s, he worked on YOSAR back then. So I asked him what he carried as a knife and he said he had a bunch of random regular folders of which he did not remember the names until he found a Swiss army which had a small hole which he could tie a lanyard to and hand it with the rest of his gear for easy access. He told me he never really cared about knives and didn't use them much for climbing at all. He said he lost more knives then he could remember and he'd just pick up whatever folder he came across to replace it. the only one he remembers was the Swiss army because he hung onto that one for many years, he actually said he might still have it packed away in his storage unit with all his old gear he doesn't use anymore.
I don't know if that really helps but I figured I'd ask him and report whatever he said to you guys.

 

[Jack Black]

I suggest something hoppy to wash away bitterness!

<Dave slides Jack a nice e-IPA>

Thanks Dave, Cheers! That's an extremely interesting post, as are the links.

I can see now why your feelings about Opinels mirrors mine about SAKs. In both cases, local industry stumbled and a combination of factors allowed a single external product to rise to the top.

Yes, perhaps not as extreme or dramatic as with the SAK on an international level.

One of the things that really interests me in asking this question is that (imo) this time period is when backpacking and climbing first emerged as defineable sports and then as industries. There were obviously camping books prior the 1960s but the advent and availability of lightweight materials allows backpacking (as opposed to camping, hiking or tramping) to become really viable. Here's an interesting write up on the emergence of lightweight packs in the very late 50s.
http://www.oregonphotos.com/Warmlite1.html

And another: http://www.adventure16.com/category.asp?itemid=441

Actually the Adventure 16 history is really critical to the history of backpacking knives in the US and I believe to the rise of the SAK in particular. It was pointed out to me in another forum where I asked the same question that A16 (as they are known) became a wholesale distributor in the 1980s and I get the sense that it was the emergence of distributors like A16 that started the consolidation of product availability among the mom & pop mountain stores. If a product like the Victorinox knives (or Nalgene bottles or Silva compasses) got picked up by A16 or another emerging distributor, it's a good bet it would ride the wave to becoming a standard fixture.

Very interesting. I get the impression with the SAK marketing here that it's planned by clever people in Switzerland rather than by their rather bumbling UK distributor. They've always been good on point of sale and display cases, which were perhaps matched by some of the US companies, but were certainly light years ahead of the old blokes in Sheffield.

So, the question of the SAKs and the American BSA/Camper is why did Victorinox get picked up by distributors like A16 while, say, the Ulster utility knife did not? Ulster, as a brand, died what? in the late 70s? My sense is there were a lot of factors at play here. I'm not sure the US makers really understood or embraced backpacking and climbing as a targeted niche. I honestly don't think they do to this day, certainly not among the traditional manufacturers like Buck or Case, anyhow. And perhaps are part of the ethos of the US backpacking explosion of the 70s was more anti-traditional and more politically distant from cultural stories (like hunting and the US military) which then opened the door for a neutral modern knife like the SAK. Speculating.

I think that's a very good point. Like the SAK, the Opinel here was sort of counter-cultural and non-threatening.

Putting the question back to your side of the pond, was there any reasonable hope that the Sheffield knives could have successfully the backpacking and climbing market in England & Scotland during the 70s and 80s? (Still have visions of my buddy's Karrimor Joe Brown climbing pack and still have hopes of getting my hands on a Buffalo systems sweater at some point. Townsend's books and blog are great.)

I really don't think there was unfortunately. Even today, the Sheffield cutlers haven't a clue about targeting this market, or about marketing in general. The best they've ever come up with is producing laughable represntations of SAKs, which have nothing in common with them beyond bright-coloured synthetic handles. I think they missed the boat, and I doubt they'll ever recover. They're not interested in innovative design, I don't think they're even capable of understanding it, nor are they able to produce great products anymore. They can still produce something to rival the Opinel I believe, but they're completely l;ost when it comes to the modern knife market, and it's been like that for a very long time.

As for Buffalo, it's a shame I'm not in the trade anymore, because Hamish Hamilton used to be a very good friend of mine (and by coincidenmce his wife was my kids' school teacher). Now there's a man who understood design, but had no interest in marketing. All he ever wanted to do was be a designer, and only ended up making Buffalo gear because all the big UK outdoor companies scoffed at it (and 15 years down the road many sought to copy it). I once asked him why he didn't do more advertising, and he told me if he did that he'd have to go and get a bank loan so he could produce more gear to satisfy the demand, maybe get a bigger factory, employ more staff, but all he wanted to do was go back to designing. A great man, who also invented Pertex and the Force Ten tent.

I would be particularly interested in what traditional Sheffield knives from the 70s would have been the best bets for the climbing and backpacking scenes.

I found my old grandad knives to be fine, but clasp knives were inevitably associated with the British Army and WW2. There was an old one-handed friction folder design that could have been a great hit with climbers, while a properly designed and manufactured Scout knife design could have sold perhaps, as could a properly designed backpacker's small sheath knife. The thing is when the Sheffield manufacturers have tried to do something like a Scout knife, they've done it really badly, producing over-heavy knives with blunt blades and badly-designed tools, and their QC stinks!

Perhaps there could be one slim chance to tarnish the SAK in the eyes of the climbing community in favour of something produced in Sheffield. A battered-looking Joe Simpson looks into the eyes of his one-time climbing partner Simon Yates, (both Joe and Simon were part of the Sheffield climbing community, hopefully still are), a climbing rope stretched between them. With grim determination, Simon throws up an arm, and we see a gleaming SAK clutched in his fist. Splashed across the screen in blood-red letters, are the words: "Swiss Army Knife". Then as the hand slashes downwards, we see a look of hurt, betrayal, and anguish on Joe's face, and echoing his screams, again in large blood-red text, the word "'NO!" across the screen! An advert for Sheffield's finest would then follow

[very far off topic, your comment about the Brits being closet Francophiles is very interesting. I've plenty to say about the interactions between the classic British Clubman style bikes and the French rando designs, but that needs a different forum and more ale. I'll toss in with the Brits on that one!!! In fact it's astonishing to me that I carry a French knife given my distaste for French bikes.]

I'm afraid I know next to nothing about bicycles, Sheffield has too many hills, and my dad was as tight as it gets. Having lived and worked in France, and seen French TV, I think they've done a great marketing job in promoting many things, not least French 'culture', and they have certainly got one over on us suckers here more than once. For a couple of decades the crafty marketeers of Beaujolais laughed all the way to the bank at stupid English wine drinkers racing to see who could be first to sample the 'fresh' Beaujolais Nouveau, paying hefty prices for the privilege of drinking this basic plonk, which was fresh from the fermenting tank. I have to say they weren't alone in seeing the joke there mind. As you've noted, it's surprising how easy it is to con people with a good marketing campaign

Jack

 

[midnight flyer]

Never heard of such a critter, but BSA literature in pretty bad and the two standard references are incomplete. Can you furnish details of its appearance? BSA shield? Montgomery Ward, like Sears, sold "Scout" pattern slippies for sure.

I remember all the "camp" and "scout" type knives made for years. If I recall correctly in my reading, it was the BSA that adopted this pattern, heavily influenced by similar patterns produced a decade before.

Remember too, that the BSA knives (while adored here) weren't terribly popular among adults in the 1950s and up until about 10 years ago at which some circles (here for example, and other pocket knife forums) resurrected them. Most adults I knew never owned one, a real BSA or a similar pattern unless they were campers. These knives were made inexpensively, ready for a youngster to lose them or break them without breaking the bank.

Anyway, here is mine:



The scales never had the shield, and the BSA marking that was on the main blade is almost identical to the markings on the Camillus BSA knife sold now (for a whopping $32). I wasn't interested in the history of the knife itself, but who made it, so a few years ago I posted this on another forum, which led me to a collector that had (he claimed) several hundred BSA knives. I will say this... identifying this knife and its history probably took him 5 minutes.

He told me some interesting things. First, made by Camillus. He supplied pictures of the exact knife in this exact configuration, all the way down to the shrinking plastic scales. He advised Camillus made hundreds of thousands of this pattern for anyone that wanted it as a contract knife.

Second, he had one (a BSA) that still was in the box! Well worn box, but the knife was pristine. It had the same POWRKRAFT tang stamp in the inside of the main blade tang, and it was identified on the knife as a BSA knife by the blade etch and the box it came in. He had the box, on which MW proudly proclaimed it was an official BSA knife. The box had the shield, etc. on it. My knife had the BSA blade etch scrubbed away with continued rust problems that haunt an overactive boy with only one knife. I used steel wool, and even sandpaper to take off the rust. That knife was carried by me for almost ten years, daily.

Third, he told me this was the lowest end, cheapest BSA knife made. I remembered the markings on the blade, but asked why there was no shield. He blamed this on MW trying to squeeze the price down. He told me that Wards even carried a sheath knife that was marked "Western Field", and the ONLY markings on the knife to let you know it was an official BSA knife was the snap on the sheath! Apparently at that time, BSA just lent its name to the product, collected the money and went on their way. This knife he told me, was a licensed knife and came straight off the assembly line and was simply stamped on the blade with BSA instead of POWRKRAFT, as many others that came off the line were stamped with anyone's name that would pay them. He told me this knife was worth zero, even to a collector as it represented the poorest specimen of the classic BSA scout knife.

Until I found out from that old fella, I never knew that BSA knife collecting was something anyone did. While they were always serviceable knives, they were certainly never great. The knife you see above has sat in a box for about 25 years, and if you had not asked it would still be there. He told me that there were more models, makers, sized, shapes and configurations than anyone could keep up with. I only knew about the classic camper model.

When my Dad passed last year, I had forgotten that he had almost the same exact knife, bought at the same time (1960 or so) but it was marked Camillus on the tang. Almost exact as it didn't have the leather awl that was needed for us Cubbies to learn leather craft. It is identical in every other way EXCEPT there is no blade stamp. I remember asking my Dad why he didn't get he four blade instead of a three blade (I thought he got cheated!) and he told me he "didn't need to be carrying a Boy Scout knife. Those are for boys". I think he would have been embarrassed.

Robert

 

[pinnah]

Jack, you are giving us gold. I'm hugely in your debt.

Like the SAK, the Opinel here was sort of counter-cultural and non-threatening.

I would love to hear more about the counter-cultural aspects of climbing in Britain in the 70s and how that might of made the Opinel more attractive there.

My sense in reading the literature about cycling, backpacking and skiing here in the US is that there were 2 major thrusts of the big changes in outdoor recreation that took place in the 70s. A part of it was Earth Day and "getting back to nature". Another part was anti-establishment, no doubt tied to rejection of the Vietnam war. In cycling, we referred to that time as the "bike boom" era in which everybody owned a "ten speed" and people started riding cross country in waves. In skiing, ski racing declined in favor of freestyle (aka hot dogging) and cross country (and telemark). Backpacking and climbing in the states definitely grew and changed in similar ways. But then, America has always had a hint of self-doubt and has looked to Europe for class and "better" things. The 70s and 80s saw lots of products in the states with the "euro" lipstick applied to sell better. Nothing pathetically as establishment as a "Boy Scout" knife, I'm afraid.

I'm pretty astonished to hear that something similar was going on in Britain and would love to hear more on that if you could. Amazing to think that Opinel would slide into that not-invented-here sort of need.

As for Buffalo, it's a shame I'm not in the trade anymore, because Hamish Hamilton used to be a very good friend of mine (and by coincidenmce his wife was my kids' school teacher). Now there's a man who understood design, but had no interest in marketing.

If you see him, tell him he has admirers in the US!! Pertex rocks. So does his approach to cold/wet clothing, but I digress.

Perhaps there could be one slim chance to tarnish the SAK in the eyes of the climbing community in favour of something produced in Sheffield. A battered-looking Joe Simpson looks into the eyes of his one-time climbing partner Simon Yates, (both Joe and Simon were part of the Sheffield climbing community, hopefully still are), a climbing rope stretched between them. With grim determination, Simon throws up an arm, and we see a gleaming SAK clutched in his fist. Splashed across the screen in blood-red letters, are the words: "Swiss Army Knife". Then as the hand slashes downwards, we see a look of hurt, betrayal, and anguish on Joe's face, and echoing his screams, again in large blood-red text, the word "'NO!" across the screen! An advert for Sheffield's finest would then follow

Snork!!!

Here's your tag line. "The perfect knife to Yates your partner."

Great stuff Jack. Seriously. Get to Boston and first round is on me.

 

[jimh0220]

Kabar from a garage sale. Still have it. Boy Scout folder. Broke it...

 

[Thomas Linton]

BSA started out with the "Scout" pattern and a two-bladed bare-end jack - all made by N.Y.K.C. The "Scout" pattern was popular with the Scouts and the jackknife gradually went away. More BSA "Scout" patterns were sold than Handbooks and BSA uniform shirts combined. ("Dad, I have to have a knife for Scouts.")

All BSA "Scout" pattern knives had a shield with the sole exception of the Kingston-made Army knives (Scout pattern nevertheless; AKA "demo" knife) recycled briefly after WW II by putting a light B.S.A. etch on the main, carbon steel blade. With that exception, no shield = not a BSA knife. But everyone made "Scout" patterns to meet the demand of an organization that eventually hit a period when it registered 2/3 of all Scout-aged boys.

The military has purchased 1,000,000's of Scout pattern knives over the decades. All SS now, of course.

As many here know, the knife actually issued to the Swiss Army was, for many years, a Scout pattern and was not red.

Cheap versions (e.g. "Camper"/"Campcraft") were on display cards on the counter of every hardware store until recently (but I think of Carter as a recent president).

Culture had almost nothing to do with it. Backpacking became popular after the shifting of load to the hips via a belt, invented by a Union Army doctor, was rediscovered almost a century later. That load-bearing system was mated to the "Himalaya" aluminum pack-frame (See Hillary and Everest) by Kelty, which decided shoulder straps could actually be padded (!!!!). The back and shoulder pain backpacking was reduced to tolerable levels, and the trickle into the back country grew to the flood we have today, accelerated by boots that no longer weighed six pounds a pair.

I backpacked a lot in the late 1950's and the 1960's. Beyond surplus knives (1,000,000's having been sold off after WW II), I mostly saw various versions of the "Scout" knife. We had no idea more was needed, simple souls that we were. Oh how did we survive without all the "necessities" listed today? I mean something other than matches? Steel that rusted ?!

 

[Jack Black]

Jack, you are giving us gold. I'm hugely in your debt.

Not at all sir, I've enjoyed your posts immensely and found the discussion fascinating

I would love to hear more about the counter-cultural aspects of climbing in Britain in the 70s and how that might of made the Opinel more attractive there. My sense in reading the literature about cycling, backpacking and skiing here in the US is that there were 2 major thrusts of the big changes in outdoor recreation that took place in the 70s. A part of it was Earth Day and "getting back to nature". Another part was anti-establishment, no doubt tied to rejection of the Vietnam war. In cycling, we referred to that time as the "bike boom" era in which everybody owned a "ten speed" and people started riding cross country in waves. In skiing, ski racing declined in favor of freestyle (aka hot dogging) and cross country (and telemark). Backpacking and climbing in the states definitely grew and changed in similar ways. But then, America has always had a hint of self-doubt and has looked to Europe for class and "better" things. The 70s and 80s saw lots of products in the states with the "euro" lipstick applied to sell better. Nothing pathetically as establishment as a "Boy Scout" knife, I'm afraid.

I'm pretty astonished to hear that something similar was going on in Britain and would love to hear more on that if you could. Amazing to think that Opinel would slide into that not-invented-here sort of need.

I don't want to give the impression that every climber carried an Opinel, but they were definitely sold in climbing shops, advertised in climbing magazines, and carried by some climbers, while Sheffield knives rarely were.

I did a degree in Leisure Studies many years ago, and I recall that it was possible to very accurately correlate leisure pursuits and the age when education terminated (generally an indication of class). With the exception of hunting (which is mainly for toffs here, and is blue collar in the US), the results were the same on both sides of the pond. By and large, outdoor enthusiasts tended to have left education relatively late, in other words they'd had some college education, and the majority of them were middle-class. Again, on both sides of the pond, I think it's fair to say that during the 60's, most college students would have considered themselves liberal, and probably left-wing, and were involved in a counter-culture of which the rejection of societal norms was a part; rejection of tradition, conservatism, the military, weapons, and other things that might be relevant to this discussion. There was also an interest among these young people in other cultures, foreign travel, and anything different and exotic. This is reflected in the books and films of the period, Girl on a Motorcycle springs to mind, partly because it&#8217;s very undynamic, and yet just the difference between life on &#8216;The Continent&#8217;, albeit a very unconventional one, and dreary Britain, had a huge romantic appeal for many young people of a certain class and type (I know this from hearing about it so many times from older people over the years). Perhaps in much the same way, as similar people in the US looked to Europe, here people looked to mainland Europe, and particularly France, where there were certainly vibrant and exciting times, the country didn&#8217;t carry the stigma that some other European countries did, it was relatively close, and some middle-class English people already had a basic grounding in French. There was a boom in French literature and cinema, which were considered more cultured, and in the smoking of French cigarettes!

Climbers were of course just part of a society which was relatively liberal also, and where (certainly here) people had only just broken away from the rationing and austerity of World War 2, conscription had ended, there was a general mood of optimism, hair was growing, and skirts shortening!

In some ways British climbing always had an anti-authoritarian streak, as the early pioneers had to dodge landowners and gamekeepers to get to the crags, but for a long time climbing and mountaineering (not walking or rambling) was the preserve of the well-to-do. That began to change between the (World) wars, and particularly after World War 2, when young working-class lads like Joe Brown and Don Whillans ruled the crag. By the 60&#8217;s, British climbing was quite counter-cultural, and many British climbers still take pride in that tradition. There&#8217;s even an organisation called &#8216;Red Rope&#8217;! However, it has remained an almost exclusively white and largely middle-class pursuit.

Lets not forget that there was also a great deal of pretension too, but also a genuine wish to explore and do things differently to one&#8217;s parents. Wine drinking increased, even if the British hadn&#8217;t yet learned what to drink, along with fondue parties! The Opinel fitted into these times far better than grandad&#8217;s slipjoint.

Sorry for the long, and possibly incoherent ramble, past my bedtime here I&#8217;m afraid!

 

[swonut]

I went to Philmont as a Boy Scout in probably 87 or maybe 86. The knife that was hot for us was the new mini Buck (425 I think). However, it was light and for the time pretty tough. I think we all bought them at a Walmart in Amarillo on the way up from South Louisiana.

 

[pinnah]

Sorry for the long, and possibly incoherent ramble, past my bedtime here I&#8217;m afraid!

Jack, that is quite possibly the finest post I've seen in years. Seriously.

 

[pinnah]

BSA started out with the "Scout" pattern and a two-bladed bare-end jack - all made by N.Y.K.C. The "Scout" pattern was popular with the Scouts and the jackknife gradually went away. More BSA "Scout" patterns were sold than Handbooks and BSA uniform shirts combined.

Any pictures of the early 2 blade jacks?

 

[neeman]

60s
I was in England in the Scouts and later in the Army Cadets (ROTC)
In Scouts I had a 5" Sheffield stag handled sheath knife and Camper four bladed penknife (these we standard)
In Army Cadets I carried a British Army issue Clasp knife
Later on I purchased a SAK (not Victorinex)
(I also purchased some Sheffield carbon kitchen knives that I still use daily!)

70s
I was in NYC
Gerber came out with the Sportsman series, and I carried backpacking the larger brass and rosewood model
Also the SAK and I purchased a SAK Classic for my First Aid Kit
That is all I carried for years of very extensive packbacking
(I worked as a Union Electrician and carried on my tool belt a standard Coloninal electicians knife, but never took it backpacking)

80s
Back in England for a time
Early 80s, I was gifted a Opinel when I was was working in Brittany France.
It became my backpacking carry instead of the Gerber Sportsman
I also purchased a very small Victorinex kitchen paring knife of my cook kit
Mid 80s, I purchased a Buck Bucklite 112, and that became my carry for almost all subsiquent backpacking

And until I became infected by Bladeforums that is all I really carried.................

 

[midnight flyer]

All BSA "Scout" pattern knives had a shield with the sole exception of the Kingston-made Army knives (Scout pattern nevertheless; AKA "demo" knife) recycled briefly after WW II by putting a light B.S.A. etch on the main, carbon steel blade. With that exception, no shield = not a BSA knife.

Interesting. I wonder now what that old fella that identified my knife (I thought!) did. He seemed knowledgeable enough, and as for me I know nothing of the history of BSA knives. But for all I know he may have been as full of stuffing as a Christmas turkey.

"no shield = not a BSA knife" Do you mean a shield on the blade or on the scales, or even both? If you mean the scales, do you have a cite or reference I could read to catch up on that aspect? I have seen other opinions on that issue, but as I said I am certainly no expert on the subject.

Robert

ADDED: I found this on the Scoutknives.net site, to further confuse the issue, color and italics added by me:

"Boy Scout knives have been around almost as long as the BSA itself. The Boy Scouts of America was founded in 1910, and one year later, the first official BSA knife appeared on the landscape.
Since that humble beginning, hundreds of different varieties of official BSA knives have been on the market. BSA knives have always been quality knives. Some were versions of regular production knives with the BSA shield added to the handle, or the BSA etching added to the main blade."