Backpacking/Climbing Knives of the 1960s, 70s and 80s?

A "shield" is a term of art for a metal or, later, plastic shape set into into a knife's scale. It may also be a "crest" or symbol," but not all crests or symbols are "shields."

I an not an expert. I am a student of the subject. After fifty-five years of collecting, I own all but three B.S.A. folding knives sold through 2007 (Although my MOP BSA 1 is only good to look at when closed.) I have a complete collection of B.S.A. equipment catalogs. I am a Scout museum asst. curator.

There are two imperfect reference works, Kerr and Holbrook.

Scoutknives.net is trying. Every journey starts with the first few steps. B.S.A. sold quality knives before WW II and, with one exception, medium quality knives after WW II until 2007. The exception was the standard Ulster U.S.A. "Scout" with its awful blades. Yet the same company made a much better SS "Scout" pattern, so whose fault were the poor quality items?

Famously, many B.S.A. sheath knives had only an etching. A little knowledge can be dangerous even for the well-meaning.
 
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This isn't about hiking, but...

In the late 60s I was active in the SCA. Back then sword smiths were rare as hen’s teeth. If a gentleman wanted a sword, his choices were wall hangers and antiques. I carried a Wilkinson. http://www.albion-swords.com/christmas-story.htm In that crowd it was like driving a Bentley.

I’ve never understood why Wilkinson Sword didn’t market to the living history crowd. They could have sold to people reenacting the Civil War—American or English. They could have made swords for ARMA and martial artists. They could have sold Glamdring to hippies rereading LOTR. They could have sold swords at Renaissance Fairs.

Museum Replicas jumped on that bandwagon. They are still in business.

Wilkinson Sword didn’t. They are gone.
 
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Scoutknives.net is trying. Every journey starts with the first few steps. B.S.A. sold quality knives before WW II and, with one exception, medium quality knives after WW II until 2007. The exception was the standard Ulster U.S.A. "Scout" with its awful blades. Yet the same company made a much better SS "Scout" pattern, so whose fault was the poor quality items?

Could you say more about this?

Having owned more Ulster BSA/Camper knives than any other, the "awful" thing about them is the Swinden key construction, which leads to unfixable blade wobble. But what aspect of the blade itself to you find inferior?

I'm no steel connoisseur but I find the carbon steel comparable to other carbon steels I've used. Maybe I'm missing something.

And I actually prefer the blade shape over all other spears I've used.

Very curious if you could expand on this comment some more. Thanks!
 
This isn't about hiking, but...

In the late 60s I was active in the SCA. Back then sword smiths were rare as hen’s teeth. If a gentleman wanted a sword, his choices were wall hangers and antiques. I carried a Wilkinson. http://www.albion-swords.com/christmas-story.htm In that crowd it was like driving a Bentley.

I’ve never understood why Wilkinson Sword didn’t market to the living history crowd. They could have sold to people reenacting the Civil War—American or English. They could have made swords for ARMA and martial artists. They could have sold Glamdring to hippies rereading LOTR. They could have sold swords at Renaissance Fairs.

Museum Replicas jumped on that bandwagon. They are still in business.

Wilkinson Sword didn’t. They are gone.

I'm really not sure what happened with Wilkinson Sword. In the 80's, kitchen knives made by Wostenholm (by then US owned) were sold with the Wilkinson Sword etch on, and in the 80's and 90's, various 'survival' and outdoor knives were made for Wilkinson's by all sorts of jobbing small cutlers in Sheffield.
 
I'm really not sure what happened with Wilkinson Sword. In the 80's, kitchen knives made by Wostenholm (by then US owned) were sold with the Wilkinson Sword etch on, and in the 80's and 90's, various 'survival' and outdoor knives were made for Wilkinson's by all sorts of jobbing small cutlers in Sheffield.

I have in the basement a boxed set of self-sharpening kitchen knives made in Hong Kong and "distributed by" the Wilkinson Sword Co of Atlanta GA.

Jack, do you guys in England have to pop the locking rings off your Opinels now?
 
I have in the basement a boxed set of self-sharpening kitchen knives made in Hong Kong and "distributed by" the Wilkinson Sword Co of Atlanta GA.

Jack, do you guys in England have to pop the locking rings off your Opinels now?

Talk about throwing away a hard won reputation!

Depends Jer. Still perfectly legal to own and carry an Opinel with the locking-ring, but if stopped and searched by the police in a public place, you'll be expected to be able to justify why you have a locking folder. If you're a carpenter in the middle of a job or just on your way fishing, for example, you should be OK. If you're just walking down the street with it in your pocket, you could face prosecution and/or the confiscation of your knife. Personally, if I was thinking of buying another Opinel, I'd be looking at taking the locking-ring off, but only partly to reduce the risk of any legal problems. I never really liked the locking ring anyway.
 
Slightly off-topic, but reading the history of the demise of the UK knife industry brings up a point. For all the grief we give Zippo-Case for beanie baby knives, Zippo really did the knife knuts a service by rescuing Case and identifying the "beanie baby" collector market for knives. Kept Case around and thriving and probably kept us knife knuts going to support CSC and GEC and the like.
 
With regard to the ascent of the Swiss Army pattern, you could see that the writing was on the wall as early as 1959, if we can take the Imperial Cutlery catalog as a hint of what was to come.
If you look at page 6 in the link below, you can see their "Swiss Trooper" pattern listed as a new product in their offerings (page 17 shows that knife alone, and page 14 shows something akin to a SAK, too). I don't know if this ever took off, as I've never heard of it before nor seen one in person. But this suggests that they must have felt some pressure to compete with the SAKs that were around, presumably before 1958 to allow time for tooling up.

http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/Imperial/1959-Imperial.pdf
 
Another interesting thing. In the 70s and 80s, us kids carried our knives daily if we could get away with it, but they were purchased typically for Scouts, camping, hunting, and not daily carry. Daily carry had largely become a rural thing of the past and could get a schoolboy in trouble in a lot of schools. While I think most of us in Scouts understood the need for and would maintain a carbon steel knife, stainless was a really nice thing to have: one less thing to worry about. That feature alone was an appealing one of SAKs. Plus they were just cool little gadgets. Kids love cool little gadgets (a lot of adults that otherwise would have no use for a pocketknife too). We were not really sophisticated enough to appreciate fine edges and great edge holding (although SAKs are no real slouch in that department).
 
1960's northern Ohio. I grew up on a farm of sorts, and worked there along with the commercial greenhouses starting at age 13.

My first knife was a Camillus sawcut barlow with a broken clip blade with close to a third broken off. I had no money for knives and found it on the ground somewhere. It was the first of many found knives. I had that knife until I joined the army in 80 and it was taken from me upon entering boot camp.

My second knife was like a giant swiss army knife with everything oversized. Even the Fork, spoon and clip blade knife were full size like you would eat with at home. I recall the "made in Japan" stamp but not the brand name. I gave it to my cousin who talked me out of it when I was getting ready to move to michigan in the summer between 10th and 11th grade. By then I also had a broken black cat, as well as a broken, butchered on a grinding wheel Imperial fishing knife. Still have that left, along with two others I found over the years. The XX Large camping knife I found while walking along power lines on a 5 mile section between roads where poachers often did their thing.

Most of the knives I found broken were the victims of people throwing them into trees. I've seen it happen. Usually the handle went first, but at times the tip. The throwing momentum would cause a vibration in the knife that would move through the knife often causing damage by shaking the grips at the correct ( or incorrect as you were) frequency causing the pins to break, sometimes a weld.

The sheffield made cowboy bowies with 5 inch blade and narrow, thin grips were often sold with western cowboy kits with belt, holster, canteen and compass. I could never afford one so naturally I wanted one growing up. By the time I was 12 I actually thought that was what real cowboys carried. To this day I have a weakness for that style though I long ago learned they are uncomfortable for any real work, not to mention thick bevels, poor edges etc. Re profiling was a big, frustrating job then with Arkansas medium stones at best.


I was an adult and in the army before I began getting knives I liked, not ones I found. I began with a KaBar lockback for my "sam browne" belt and chose a basketweave belt sheath to match. I got others like the Schrade LB7 which I liked except for the stainless. This was the beginning for a dry spell for carbon/alloy steel production knives in most places I shopped such as hardware stores, and gun/knife/fishing type places. Terms like "surgical steel" were used, or names that meant whatever the company wanted like "schrade + " ( actually one of the better stainless steels then, 440A. 440A was the S30V of it's day signifying decent steel. No, contrary to statements here 440C was never thought of as, or performed like "the first super steel". That place and designation goes to ATS 34/154cm)

Old Timer and Uncle Henry had some nice 1095 folders, and Gerber released one of the first really high performance steel folders made with the "V" steel Sportsman 2 ( Vascowear, from '82-3 to about 86). They also had one high priced folder in M2 that goes for big bucks today. They also had Fixed blades in L6, as well as M2 HSS.

The rest is modern history, so to speak. Steels like 440V followed closely on the heels of Vascowear and M2. It took me over 20 years to finally get one of those "V" steel Vascowear Gerbers. The beginnings of being a steel junky.

I have replaced all of my old knives with the exception of that giant swiss army type camping knife. It was heavy, unwieldy, primitive, and not even close to ergonomic but it was the coolest thing I had ever seen. The non traditional , impractical bowie knives continue to catch my eye but that's about it. If I'm going to carry a fixed blade bowie I want it to at least cut. I still like the old Black Cat. It sure takes a great edge and is very easy to sharpen. The lock works fine if you don't use it to throw it into oak stumps. I did replace that Camillus Barlow but I had to make do with it in Remington colors. It still has it's tip, and cuts well. The old inexpensive imperial Ireland and Ideals are well represented in my collection and their thin carbon steel blades cut as well now as when I paid $2.99 to $4.99 for them brand new. The "V" steel Gerber is worth about 250% of it's original value. I wouldn't sell it for a stack of money as tall as me. :)
 
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Snipped for brevity

There are two imperfect reference works, Kerr and Holbrook.

Scoutknives.net is trying. Every journey starts with the first few steps.

A little knowledge can be dangerous even for the well-meaning.

I appreciate your input on the subject. I have read a ton on this subject in the last two days as it piqued my interest, but I am throwing in the towel. There are as many opinions/facts as there are models of scout knives out there on who did what, when they did it, and how they did it. Few folks seem to agree at all on the finer points of BSA knife collecting. As you have dismissed the two authors and the website as inferior references at this time, it seem that most folks that collect BSA knives do that frequently to one another.

If you have ALL of the knives up to 2007 and their various iterations of blade shapes, blade selections, makers, etc., you must indeed have a thousand knives!

Until a day or two ago I never had any idea that there were medium stockmen, and single blade lockers, cigar shaped with long pulls on a straight spear point main, a fork/knife/spoon hobo pattern, a Barlow knife, two different types of whittlers, a double ended jack, a single ended jack, a double lock back with a saw blade, and even a SAK emblazoned or etched with the BS logo. With all the different blade shapes, three different kinds of can openers, saw blades, corkscrews, screwdrivers, etc., and any combination of that under the sun, I don't know how anyone could ever keep up.

I certainly appreciate your input, but I had not even thought of that knife long enough to pull it out in some time and it has been in a junk box for the last 30 years. This has been a good learning experience for me, but that knife is going back into the drawer. Maybe some day, someone will generate the definitive, accepted, reference book on the subject and everyone will be on the same page.

Robert
 
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I too am a bit puzzled by Thomas' "awful Ulster" comment. I had an Ulster stainless Scout as my first Scout knife (sawcut delrin) it was fime, but the spring broke ala demo knife. By that time they no longer sold the SS so it was replaced with a five blade delux Ulster. I had and have no problem with either knife except the Swinden keys. If those Ulsters represented average slipjoints tiday, I would wager we would be very happy campers. And that spear blade pretty much defines what a spear should be.
 
With regard to the ascent of the Swiss Army pattern, you could see that the writing was on the wall as early as 1959, if we can take the Imperial Cutlery catalog as a hint of what was to come. ...

http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/Imperial/1959-Imperial.pdf

Wow, does that catalog bring back some memories from childhood. As a kid, I used to pray, "Dear God, please let Mom or the Easter Bunny or Santa bring me a pocketknife. But not one of those crummy Imperial ones." :D

-- Mark
 
Having owned more Ulster BSA/Camper knives than any other, the "awful" thing about them is the Swinden key construction, which leads to unfixable blade wobble. But what aspect of the blade itself to you find inferior?

You correctly note the weak construction. The blades were deliberately run soft to make them "easier to sharpen." Springs were often weak as well.

I appreciate your input on the subject. I have read a ton on this subject in the last two days as it piqued my interest, but I am throwing in the towel. There are as many opinions/facts as there are models of scout knives out there on who did what, when they did it, and how they did it. Few folks seem to agree at all on the finer points of BSA knife collecting. As you have dismissed the two authors and the website as inferior references at this time, it seem that most folks that collect BSA knives do that frequently to one another.

I wish there was more to read.

I did not use the work "inferior" as regards Holbrook or Kerr. I used "imperfect." (So are we all.) Holbrook is missing many knives and, sadly, seems disinterested in filling out his book. He omits specs and shows only a single B&W view of each of the knives that he does include. (The axe situation is worse.)

Kerr's information in 600 Scout Knives (1997) was gathered as a labor of love pre-Internet through 1000's of miles of travel and correspondence with other collectors. Unfortunately, his illustrations are of a single, blurred view (folding knives closed) and are collected on plates. This makes it hard to use and hard to see identifying details that he did not cover in his text. While his book is far more inclusive than Holbrook's, he missed some, such as the Cardinal sheath knives.

Scoutknives.net will eventually be the place to go. Currently, it covers on a small fraction of the BSA knife universe but is growing steadily.

If you have ALL of the knives up to 2007 and their various iterations of blade shapes, blade selections, makers, etc., you must indeed have a thousand knives!

I expressly said I did not have all folding knives, did not mention sheath knives, and the total is not near 1000.

Until a day or two ago I never had any idea that there were medium stockmen, and single blade lockers, cigar shaped with long pulls on a straight spear point main, a fork/knife/spoon hobo pattern, a Barlow knife, two different types of whittlers, a double ended jack, a single ended jack, a double lock back with a saw blade, and even a SAK emblazoned or etched with the BS logo. With all the different blade shapes, three different kinds of can openers, saw blades, corkscrews, screwdrivers, etc., and any combination of that under the sun, I don't know how anyone could ever keep up.

Staggering, is it not? There are many Wenger and Victoinox B.S.A. knives (with BSA shields). I gave up in 2007 when BSA began to license their mark to anyone who would pay. I weaken from time to time and pick up a CHINA knife, but not in any systematic way. As for Case, psssshaw! (I did get the Cub knife sold by Colonial while it was around and the Baer & Son efforts.)
 
You correctly note the weak construction. The blades were deliberately run soft to make them "easier to sharpen." Springs were often weak as well.

This is very interesting and helpful. Thanks!

I believe Opinel does their Carbone at around 56RC (sort of soft, imo) while Schrade (who owned Ulster) did their 1095 at a reported 58RC (pretty high).

Any idea what the Ulster 1095 is? My sense is that is somewhere in between the two. I've not really noticed the edges folding, but then, I beat on my Opinels in ways I would never beat on an Ulster (on account of the weak joint, mainly).

Someday, I may get around to trying an old Camillus scout. I hated the Cubbie I got and passed to my young son. I'm just too fond of the shape of the Ulster spear. <- Big hint to GEC, who really should make a camper.
 
Yeah my two Ulsters may be testament to the weak springs :in addition to the one that broke, the 5 blade is pretty light. Was there anything weaker about the Ulsters than say an old timer? I can't really argue with running them soft given the abuse that preteens are liable to deal out (think of all the broken tips on OTs). Mine has always held and edge about as well as carbon steel generally and any differences I attributed to geometry (I never thought I could get it quite as sharp as a Case cv minitrapper or the various old timers i have owned, due i thought to their thinner edges).
 
Staggering, is it not? There are many Wenger and Victoinox B.S.A. knives (with BSA shields). I gave up in 2007 when BSA began to license their mark to anyone who would pay.

Well sir, I honestly wasn't kidding when I said I appreciated your input. That is simply too much disorganized information for me to plow through.

I have to say that I agree with your assessment that it seems that BSA would license to anyone with a buck. I have never seen such a mess of unrelated products, and most these days don't follow any kind of utility camp knives I would think a young scout or a camper would find useful.

See you around BF!

Robert
 
In the early '70s, when I started backpacking in the Colorado Rockies, there were a number of options. Victorinox SAKs, Buck, Gerber, and Puma and Case folders and sheath knives. for those who asked where were they purchased--there was a mountaineering company called Holubar back then that sold SAKs. Two major sporting goods stores sold all the rest--Dave Cook and Gart Brothers--both old-time multi-generation Denver operations. In addition, there was a pharmacy (must have been the predecessor of New Graham!) that had an assortment of DH Russell belt knives. None of these places had any problem at all with kids drooling over the displays, or letting us finger the knives as much as we wanted.
 
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