Blade steels - what's wrong with improvement?

Except that modern alloys contain enough other elments that they're often much tougher than a non-alloy simple carbon steel while also being stainless, even at 60+ HRC hardness levels so they'll also be much more wear resistant at the same time.

There's a reason why machetes and swords are made from carbon steel - because it's less likely to break

Are you suggesting stainless steel be used for such blades? It's clearly not tough enough to withstand such abuse.

Even with maintenance I think carbon is easier to look after - yes you may have to spend a minute a day cleaning and oiling a carbon blade, but you will save yourself hours of time sharpening compared to stainless blades which are so much harder to sharpen.
 
In day to day tasks that involve cutting I can honestly say that I can pick an O1 knife from a 3V in around 5 minutes of use. Now to distinguish between 3V and M4 or 10V may take a little longer, but believe me it will show and you will notice a lack of cutting ability. I know this because I have done the comparisons numerous times. I have worked with almost all the steels mentioned in this thread and all that I work with work differently, cut differently, and dull differently. I have EDC'd knives I made from O1, 3V, M4, S90V, 10V, M390, ELMAX, 4V, CPM 20CV, D2, CPM D2, and PSF 27 to name most. I cut a lot of cardboard, paper, wood and plastic on a daily basis and differences show up very fast, especially in cardboard. In my use O1, ELMAX, and D2 dull the fastest. They would be the first separated into a pile. The PSF 27 and CPM D2 are very hard for me to tell apart in use, but they will last almost as long as the 3V. In multiple tests it could be difficult to pull the 3V knife from these other 2. The next group will include M4, 4V, 20CV, and M390. Finally you are left with S90V and 10V. I really do not see how anyone who has used these 2 steels can say they are not well rounded steels or that 52100 or AEB-L can stand next to them. I have used both 52100 and AEB-L and I would never make such a claim with a straight face. I have chopped 3/8" Poly-Carbonate sheet with S90V and experienced no edge damage. I have batoned both 10V and S90V through golf ball sized and larger cedar knots with no major edge damage. I have cut more cardboard with an S90V knife than any other and I usually run out of cardboard before the edge stops cutting. I have made several 10V hunting knives that were ground to .008" at the shoulders and used to process game. At a high hardness of 63 to 64 Rc there is plenty of edge stability to hold that fine edge. No, I would not recommend sticking the edge in a joint and prying sideways, but I would not do that with any steel. A few cuts around the joint and it separate on it's own. I do not just make knives, but I try to use them hard too. I try to push the edge geometry thin till it fails and then thicken it up till no failure occurs. These super steels might not like to bend and flex like the spring steels, but they were never intended to do so either. I just found out the other day that 10V was designed in the '70's to cut very large stacks of cardboard and paper. It is intended to be hard and stiff, but not brittle. I doubt that a spring steel that will bend and flex would make dead straight cuts or as many cuts as a 10V blade. 10V has an equal toughness to D2, it is just not found in larger blades because of the cost to produce.
Sorry about the ramble, I do not normally make posts this long. Yes the super steels are more expensive and you could get by with a piece of cheap Chinese surgical stainless. A new truck is also expensive when the old Ford Pinto or Chevrolet Chevette will get you to your destination. Advancing technology, improved performance, and bragging rights all play a part in our purchases. An old Colt 45 will shoot as good as a new Colt 45 but neither will be as accurate or perform as well as a Les Baer. O1 or 1095 will get the job done but will not perform as nice as a well made knife from CPM 10V.


It takes time to get through the urban legends and marketing especially when money is involved.

And that what makes them so hard to get past and perception is also powerful as in a knife performs because they want it to, not because it really does or in reality will even perform at a fraction of what they say it will.

It's awesome because they think it is and want it to be so they perceive it to be and it was cheap and that's the most important part..... CHEAP...

We have all heard those stories of amazing feats that some cheap knife in (enter carbon steel here) that can't possibly happen in the real world because the alloy content in the steel just isn't there. That's not even taking into count the HT and tempering process. But that is what gets passed around and before long they are facts and then turn into urban legends and taken as the absolute answers.

Then it's yeah, yeah, we don't need all those fancy new steels that are impossible to sharpen and will break if you look at them too hard, all we need is (enter cheap knife in said steel here) and we can get it at the local Wal-Mart for $10 to $30......... Yeah, yeah we can buy a lot of beer for the cost of that fancy knife that can't be sharpened and will break really easy.......

I can dress out and skin 25 deer with my (enter $30 knife here) and never had to sharpen it once and it's still sharp enough to do even more than that.......... I don't need those fancy expensive knives.......

Personally I can't even begin to count how many complete BS stories like that I have heard over the years from the time I was 11 years old until now and I am 48.......
 
There's a reason why machetes and swords are made from carbon steel - because it's less likely to break

Are you suggesting stainless steel be used for such blades? It's clearly not tough enough to withstand such abuse.

Even with maintenance I think carbon is easier to look after - yes you may have to spend a minute a day cleaning and oiling a carbon blade, but you will save yourself hours of time sharpening compared to stainless blades which are so much harder to sharpen.

They are made out of spring steels with spring tempers........

Carbon steel is too broad of a term for this.....

Then factor in the cost of the products, and it's VERY broad from $10 to a Million or more.......
 
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1393535397.779421.jpg
QUOTE=leghog;13249650]Seriously? Just how often does one skin "a bunch of wild boars with A knife"?[/QUOTE]

Not that often for me but, this one skinned this boar another boar and two meat pigs in one sitting without being touched up. It's ATS34.
 
They are made out of spring steels with spring tempers........

Carbon steel is too broad of a term for this.....

Then factor in the cost of the products, and it's VERY broad from $10 to a Million or more.......

Spring steel or carbon steel call it what you want, old fashioned spring steels are used in big blades because they have superior toughness compared to stainless/super steels.
 
Most knives us enthusiasts collect are military/bushcraft/survival blades. ESSENTIAL QUALITIES of a blade made for such a purpose is TOUGHNESS and EASE OF SHARPENING.

Carbon is superior to stainless regarding these two qualities.

There's a fundamental problem with stainless, when you start throwing a sh*t load of chromium into steel, it becomes brittle and that's bad news.

That's a pretty bold blanket statement! I see wayyyy more modern folders for EDC use than "survival" blades.
 
As with so many things these days, the newest blade steel often appear simply to be solution in search of a problem. Consider this -- will the next miracle steel for blades really solve a problem left by today's latest wonder steel?

When accompanied by a premium price these type solutions are a marketer's dream which can be seen in so much advertising hype.
 
Most knives us enthusiasts collect are military/bushcraft/survival blades. ESSENTIAL QUALITIES of a blade made for such a purpose is TOUGHNESS and EASE OF SHARPENING.
Overall, very broad, blanket statements...
For one, a lot of military knives are made form stainless steel. Same goes for bushcraft and survival knives, even though both categories are very broad.
Ease of sharpening has been covered many times and it's really not an issue, unless you plan on thinning down the edge from 50 inclusive angle to 20 inclusive in the field, using a flat rock, then the question is why...

There's a fundamental problem with stainless, when you start throwing a sh*t load of chromium into steel, it becomes brittle and that's bad news.
Given the trend for overbuilt knives, I really doubt you'd be able to break 1/4" thick stainless steel knife. Besides, there's plenty of modern alloys which don't fall under stainless category.
 
View attachment 419180
Seriously? Just how often does one skin "a bunch of wild boars with A knife"?

Not that often for me but, this one skinned this boar another boar and two meat pigs in one sitting without being touched up. It's ATS34.
I too have found ATS34 is all I need in a hunting, skinning, and dressing knife. Certainly no longer in the "wonder steel" category.
 
Last edited:
I used to be all about the newest steels, M390, S90V, S110V ect. but then I came to the realization that any of the knife steels used by the good companies are more that adequate for field knives, does anyone really need anything better than S30V? And remember with edge retention comes difficulty of sharpening. You want a knife that holds an edge longer? Well guess what, its going to be more difficult to sharpen.

I no longer look for the newest super steel when considering a knife. In a recent move, I sold a few knives, including one in M390 to fund the purchase of a Sebenza in S35VN. If I were to have made my decision on steel alone I would have kept the Benchmade Barrage in M390 but the Sebenza, with it's "inferior steel" cost twice as much and I am going with that one.
 
I used to be all about the newest steels, M390, S90V, S110V ect. but then I came to the realization that any of the knife steels used by the good companies are more that adequate for field knives, does anyone really need anything better than S30V? And remember with edge retention comes difficulty of sharpening. You want a knife that holds an edge longer? Well guess what, its going to be more difficult to sharpen.

I no longer look for the newest super steel when considering a knife. In a recent move, I sold a few knives, including one in M390 to fund the purchase of a Sebenza in S35VN. If I were to have made my decision on steel alone I would have kept the Benchmade Barrage in M390 but the Sebenza, with it's "inferior steel" cost twice as much and I am going with that one.

by the way, I still do have a Para-2 in M390 and a military in S90V. They may be the next to go to fund my next CRK
 
Lots of good, educated comments in this long thread. Let me toss my two cents worth of experience into the mix for what it is worth.

I buy and use "knives" for cutting, not chopping, etc. To me the edge is the most important element but only one of many elements that make the knife really do the work I intend it to do. I would rather have a nicely balanced, good feeling handle, reliable locking mechanism, etc. with an older proven knife steel knife that is well designed for the task at hand and reasonably priced than I would some monstrosity with the latest and greatest steel concoction that is miserable to use doing actual work at a premium price.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'll take comfort and ease-of-use as the most important aspect of my knives, with steel type being secondary. My knives are from knife makers who have been in business for many years and understand what their customers want or need. Let them figure out what materials to use in their knives and sell the concept to the knife buyer. They are far more knowledgeable than I am and I'm sure if they sold junk they would be out of business.

Now collectible or collector knives, that is a whole new thread.

A question: what percent of the total production cost of the average EDC is the cost of a particular steel including it's fabrication into a blade? Has anyone done any research on this for say a 3.25" folder with a standardized blade shape of some sort. Just curious.
 
Last edited:
Spring steel or carbon steel call it what you want, old fashioned spring steels are used in big blades because they have superior toughness compared to stainless/super steels.

No, swords have to have a good bit of flex to them, the amount will depend on the actual sword as will the exact steel type and if the blade is layered or not and or Damascus. Also the better swords made by the better sword smiths are differently heat treated and pounded out by hand so there is a lot more to making a good functional sword made for real use.

Machetes are cheap, really thin, made for the type of work that could involve striking things like rocks so a spring steel is used to both give flex to the blade and at low hardness the edge will take a good bit of damage without cracking.

Now, in the larger knives the steel choices will vary quite a bit depending on the type of use the model will see or is designed for, it could be stainless or non stainless depending.
 
Lots of good, educated comments in this long thread. Let me toss my two cents worth of experience into the mix for what it is worth.

I buy and use "knives" for cutting, not chopping, etc. To me the edge is the most important element but only one of many elements that make the knife really do the work I intend it to do. I would rather have a nicely balanced, good feeling handle, reliable locking mechanism, etc. with an older proven knife steel knife that is well designed for the task at hand and reasonably priced than I would some monstrosity with the latest and greatest steel concoction that is miserable to use doing actual work at a premium price.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'll take comfort and ease-of-use as the most important aspect of my knives, with steel type being secondary. My knives are from knife makers who have been in business for many years and understand what their customers want or need. Let them figure out what materials to use in their knives and sell the concept to the knife buyer. They are far more knowledgeable than I am and I'm sure if they sold junk they would be out of business.

Now collectible or collector knives, that is a whole new thread.

A question: what percent of the total production cost of the average EDC is the cost of a particular steel including it's fabrication into a blade? Has anyone done any research on this for say a 3.25" folder with a standardized blade shape of some sort. Just curious.

Why is it always an assumption that in comparisons that a knife made of "super steel" is a "monstrosity" and the better designed knife is made of "older" steel? What about a well designed for the task at hand knife with just the steels being different? :p

It's the same bias that always assumes the "older" steel has optimal heat treat and the "super steel" has bad heat treat in these discussions.
 
Last edited:
It's not missed, it's just not allowed to be be discussed due to being covered in data, walls of text, photos, and links to technically correct information.

Because the discussion is usually slanted in favor of the lower alloy steels so the data, usually tons of it, has to be narrowed down to a very specific area to support that position. And it is VERY NARROW because it has to be...

In all of that what is forgotten is a knife is supposed to actually cut stuff so that part is left out or buried under tons of research because that's not the point that is being made.

So while scientifically correct and backed up by research the key element is often left out that will bring it all back to reality.

And anyone who mentions it will be covered in walls of text etc......

Haha, that is what is entertaining.

There's also a lot of personal preference expressed that is automatically assumed to mean better performance but is in fact just what you mentioned in your first post, wants and needs.
 
(Sarcasm on) It would seem to me that it was a miracle the Pilgrims (and the American Indians) were able to settle America without a ZT in S30V. Or that Wellington and his forces were able win at Waterloo since they had no blades made of 3V. And the Gurkas obviously could not have gained there reputation with out there M390 khukuris. (sarcasm off) I hate to say it, but I would wager all of these people used knives made out of steels that are simple by todays standards. Most, if not all, were carbon and some of there knife weren't even made of steel. Nothing wrong with improvement; I like stainless and D2. But why improve if there is no need? There are some needs, though, because I have first hand knowledge of the dulling power of cardboard.
 
Haha, that is what is entertaining.

There's also a lot of personal preference expressed that is automatically assumed to mean better performance but is in fact just what you mentioned in your first post, wants and needs.


I find it interesting in that they seem to leave out certain scientific facts backed up by research that don't benefit their positions.

Like I always say science is great as long as it's used in the proper way.

Leaving out key elements of research that doesn't support the position doesn't do anyone any good except for those who have that certain position.

One has to look at all of it combined to see how it all really works together or the big picture is never seen.

Forest through the trees.... ;)
 
So if a company sells a high quality folder with a 2.5 mm thick blade and a thin edge with the newest, highly abrasion resistant steel, and ergonomics targeted at cardboard cutting, I'll be all over it. That would make sense.

For the latest Spyderco Mule, Sal ships the USA-made Crucible Industries CPM-S110V steel directly to the Taiwan plant.

This Mule steel is 0.119" thick, flat-ground, and is 0.020" just behind the edge. I suspect it will slice like a laser.
A mule that I've been hoping for...for a long time. I love it. And...you can buy ready-make G10 scales from Halpern...a no-brainer.
Sonnydaze
 
Back
Top