Brands comparable to busse

[calc]

Mastiff, I think you are a bit off there. Busse never claimed to invent either SR101 or SR77, both were clearly stated to be AISI 52100 and AISI S7 respectively.

Right, they say it right here:

http://www.swampratknifeworks.com/about-our-steel-sr-101/

Not sure what the issue is?

You said they can do anything the Busse can do. That's not correct. They can't look like TGLB. We are all aware of what Sruvive and BRKT produces. And busse has been around long before the walking dead.

I've got knives from all sorts of companies but not one looks like this

My Ratmandu is special to me since no other company makes a knife like it with the materials I want, but let's be clear here: they're talking about the price to function ratio. If you're looking for a functional tool, Busse makes fantastic ones but there's definitely an added cost. For example, I'm not convinced that a Sebenza will outcut my beloved Para 2, so the price to function ratio isn't worth it from a tool perspective. But that doesn't mean a Sebenza isn't "worth" it in general, since different people value different things differently.

So I don't think it's an unfair point at all, but it seems that you guys are arguing two separate points.

 

[craytab]

So.....What exactly is it a Busse can do that a 3v knife from Survive or BRKT can't? I'm talking about actual capability of the knife here, not "it can't look like a Busse" or some junk response like that.

Again, those companies make knives in appropriate sizes and designs for any ACTUAL use, and will do anything a Busse can.....Besides "look like a Busse."

They can't look like a Busse :thumbup:

Oh, and Esee's 1095 is no match for anything Busse kin. I know. I have both and have used them quite a bit (I have almost the full line from Esee). How about your experience comparing the two? A2 isn't going to be as good as what Busse has. Guess what? I have A2 from BRKT and have even used it. You? 3v is great stuff. I have some of that too and, you guessed it, I've used it! I would likely take 3v over INFI or SR101. The thing is, I find Survive knives particularly unattractive. Had a 7/7 in 3v. Great quality but had to sell it because I could not get over the looks. So yeah, believe it or not some people prefer to use knives they like the look of. I know, strange concept right? Not one of those brands you mention can do what that Busse TGLB does for me. Looks damn good.

I know junk response, right?

 

[nemesis]

Guess I'm a die hard, to me there is no other fixed blade. Get a busse and you won't regret it.

 

[seedubs1]

Sorry, I should have clarified. Completely agree about Esee's 1095 not stacking up to INFI. I mentioned them for their warranty being the best (just like Busse's). If you break it, they will send you a new one, no questions asked.

And depending on the intended use, an Esee will do really well. Their heat treat does 1095 justice, and you don't always actually need a knife with 3v, INfI, or whatever other super steel's properties. Depending on the use, you might not even know the difference.

Oh, and Esee's 1095 is no match for anything Busse kin.

 

[The Mastiff]

Quote Originally Posted by The Mastiff View Post

It is a made up name just like SR101 ( 52100) and SR77 (S7). We have had this discussion around here a few times and you can do research to find it if you want. It's no more a secret in the knife industry than "Carbon V" was. Good for you for believing that J. Busse invented a new grade of steel. I recall another company owner making similar claims about their steel. At least the Busse folks really do know how to make good knives and not just know marketing.

Mastiff, I think you are a bit off there. Busse never claimed to invent either SR101 or SR77, both were clearly stated to be AISI 52100 and AISI S7 respectively. Take a look at S7 steel reference data. It has more proprietary names than standard names, are they all claiming to reinvent S7? Of course not.

Hello Gator. I don't recall saying they claimed to invent the SR101 or SR77. I stated they invented or made up names for perfectly good steels, which they did.

S7 is just one standard spec and technically it is not even a steel, it is a specification that allows for a certain alloy to be classified as S7 grade. Individual steel mills produce alloy within the specs and you are free to call it a new name (would be nice to state to which standard it confirms of course), or refer to it in standard spec terms, be it AISI, UNS or W-Nr or whatever else. Latrobe sold S7 under Bearcat name, but you wouldn't say Latrobe claimed to reinvent S7?

I'm aware of the difference in steels not only from one manufacturer to another when producing their version of AISI or JIS, or EN etc. steels, as well as their company names ( Jarret, Stark, etc.) but also the difference in comps between different heats of steels from the same manufacturer. That's why different steel orders always come with Certifications of the breakdown of each orders steels analysis from the lab. It's not only to keep on file where that's important but also can help tweak heat treats. That wouldn't apply to something like knives though, but becomes important in other industry. They all should fall within the specs. of M2, or D2, for example no matter which company you order from who makes steel to specs set up for M2, or D2, or A8(mod) or whatever. The specs have leeway.

I wouldn't say Latrobe invented anything unless I checked the patent and saw their name on it. Company names like Red star, Stark, etc. are not used outside the companies often now. That is why they have standards so people can source a product at more than one place. Many of these steels were first used long ago as you I'm sure found when doing research for your steel list. Like anything else the patents held by the inventor or whomever is only good for a set time. Crucible invented powder 10V. Now how many companies make powder A11?

S7 made by two different steel mills will vary in composition withing the specs allowing it and sometimes a bit outside of it as well. Proprietary name allows to make a difference between those two. AISI W1 has Carbon spec from 0.70.to 1.50 which is a huge difference, again, proprietary names tell you more precisely, how much carbon and other elements in it. Not all W1 or any standard spec steels are the same in short.

It's less common for knife makers to name steels, but there are plenty of examples: Carbon V, SB1, MC66, CMV60 and so on.

Agreed. I also gave " Carbon V" as an example. As I stated I feel it is unnecessary when you already are using a premium steel. That's how marketing works though. It's not new. It's been stated there really isn't anything new and to an extent it's true.

Bussse will be tougher, and they do stand behind unconditional warranty. Can't comment on Survive, but if you search there are plenty of reports on BRKT knives failures and arguments surrounding those failures.

And I have knives tougher than the Busse knife I still have.That doesn't make them better or worse. I have differing views on tough anyway from when I worked on the railroad. My pry tool was over 5 foot long and weighed over 30 lbs so calling any knife tough is perspective. Rarely is maximum toughness what I seek and that has to be measured by the jobs they are needed for.

I have other knives with replacement guarantees. Those guarantees are marketing tools as well and they come with costs to the buyer of knives just like Sears lifetime guarantee had built in replacement money added to every tool knowing not every tool will be broken so the cost can be added in to whatever percentage of tools their studies said would need to be replaced.

If you compare them to BRKT you also need to consider they are built to different standards. The average not as tough BRKT will cut circles around the average Busse that is tougher. They are designed for different purposes just like the steels they are made of are designed for different things. Me? I have both BRKT and Busse. And Survive, and Koster, and Ferhman, and Big Chris and Phil Wilson, Spyderco, Kershaw, ZT, Cold Steel, Benchmade, and so on to the tune of over 200 knives and over 45 years of knife use and buying/accumulating. A few I made myself even.
Just part of marketing. Everybody does it. Business owners decide how to do it the way that's in their best interests. As it should be. If they do well than the market has accepted their product and their marketing strategy.

 

[AntDog]

So, then INFI is not a made up name for a known steel.

Gator - thank you for your posts! Mastiff or anybody else who would tangle with you over steel questions had better be very well educated on the subject... I use your program often. It is an excellent resource!

 

[The Mastiff]

So, then INFI is not a made up name for a known steel.

No one here said that either. You honestly seem to just troll or have comprehension issues.

Gator - thank you for your posts! Mastiff or anybody else who would tangle with you over steel questions had better be very well educated on the subject... I use your program often. It is an excellent resource!

It is a great program and more importantly it was a good thing to put that much time and effort into it. It has helped a lot of people around here.

But Tangle? Are you in junior high? A 40-50ish child?

By the way this isn't the first time we have talked about this. I was just going to re post our old ones:

Part of it here:http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/855682-if-infi-steel-is-really-as-good-as-people-say-why-no-close-copy/page3

Most of the steel companies do the same. Take standard spec, make steel according to that, and give it a proprietary name. Then promote "proprietary" steel. In both cases if you dig, you can easily find base standard steel.
I don't think it's something unusual, and perhaps Jerry has better reason to rename steel after HT than steel company does. It's not like he's hiding.

I disagree. If you go to Latrobe and order M2 steel, they won't have trouble finding it because they call it "double six" in house. You could also order it by the european designation if you want, JIS, or Bohler's or the chinese counterpart and everybody will be on the same page. No effort to conceal it's true name, origin, or anything else about it is made. It's not the same story with knifemakers taking steels produced by others and attempting to conceal it's name, origin and claim it as their own invention.

Kershaw had a steel tweaked for their needs yet did not attempt to hide it's source or true nature. They made an arrangement to have exclusive use for a set period of time but that's it. I have more respect for that. There's nothing illegal or immoral about what Busse did. I just don't respect that way of doing business.

This is a topic that just keeps coming back.

OK. Antdog. If you invented something would you patent it?

I'm curious.

 

[trevitrace]

Quote Originally Posted by The Mastiff View Post



Hello Gator. I don't recall saying they claimed to invent the SR101 or SR77. I stated they invented or made up names for perfectly good steels, which they did.



I'm aware of the difference in steels not only from one manufacturer to another when producing their version of AISI or JIS, or EN etc. steels, as well as their company names ( Jarret, Stark, etc.) but also the difference in comps between different heats of steels from the same manufacturer. That's why different steel orders always come with Certifications of the breakdown of each orders steels analysis from the lab. It's not only to keep on file where that's important but also can help tweak heat treats. That wouldn't apply to something like knives though, but becomes important in other industry. They all should fall within the specs. of M2, or D2, for example no matter which company you order from who makes steel to specs set up for M2, or D2, or A8(mod) or whatever. The specs have leeway.

I wouldn't say Latrobe invented anything unless I checked the patent and saw their name on it. Company names like Red star, Stark, etc. are not used outside the companies often now. That is why they have standards so people can source a product at more than one place. Many of these steels were first used long ago as you I'm sure found when doing research for your steel list. Like anything else the patents held by the inventor or whomever is only good for a set time. Crucible invented powder 10V. Now how many companies make powder A11?


Agreed. I also gave " Carbon V" as an example. As I stated I feel it is unnecessary when you already are using a premium steel. That's how marketing works though. It's not new. It's been stated there really isn't anything new and to an extent it's true.



And I have knives tougher than the Busse knife I still have.That doesn't make them better or worse. I have differing views on tough anyway from when I worked on the railroad. My pry tool was over 5 foot long and weighed over 30 lbs so calling any knife tough is perspective. Rarely is maximum toughness what I seek and that has to be measured by the jobs they are needed for.

I have other knives with replacement guarantees. Those guarantees are marketing tools as well and they come with costs to the buyer of knives just like Sears lifetime guarantee had built in replacement money added to every tool knowing not every tool will be broken so the cost can be added in to whatever percentage of tools their studies said would need to be replaced.

If you compare them to BRKT you also need to consider they are built to different standards. The average not as tough BRKT will cut circles around the average Busse that is tougher. They are designed for different purposes just like the steels they are made of are designed for different things. Me? I have both BRKT and Busse. And Survive, and Koster, and Ferhman, and Big Chris and Phil Wilson, Spyderco, Kershaw, ZT, Cold Steel, Benchmade, and so on to the tune of over 200 knives and over 45 years of knife use and buying/accumulating. A few I made myself even.
Just part of marketing. Everybody does it. Business owners decide how to do it the way that's in their best interests. As it should be. If they do well than the market has accepted their product and their marketing strategy.

Well-articulated summation. :thumbup:

Agree wholeheartedly with the "proper" tool for the job. By that, I mean I will still baton a reasonable piece of wood with an appropriately stout knife gso 3.5 (rather than a hatchet - sorry those who abhor knife batoning), but also that I wouldn't use either of the two knives I have from Mr. Wilson for anything but cutting; they're designed and built perfectly for that task.

Along those lines, one of my favorites I have of Big Chris is an ~18" chopper in 3v that sorta isn't, in that it's just a touch over 4mm thick. Basically heavier than average machete. It works wonders barreling through black locust or honeysuckle, but I wouldn't baton with it, not would I use it to clean game or other fine work.

I own a handful of and love Busse. Absolute toughest, sure, maybe, I don't know, the ones I have work for me...I haven't tried all the flavors out there. However, if I have a lot a cutting ahead of me, my Wilson in M4 is and will be my go-to. As always, YMMV.


Cheers, and goodnight.

 

[Nellem]

I would like to see reliable scientific proof that Busse is better than Fällkniven. Until I see that I consider this "Busse is the absolute best" as mere fanboyism.

 

[_Wraith]

How would a company like Bark River compare to Busse?

 

[bodog]

I would like to see reliable scientific proof that Busse is better than Fällkniven. Until I see that I consider this "Busse is the absolute best" as mere fanboyism.

To be fair, Busse has called any maker to the carpet who feels like they can compare in a head to head public competition. I don't think anyone has taken him up on his offer. There must be at least a touch of something there or someone would have called his bluff already.

 

[Nellem]

To be fair, Busse has called any maker to the carpet who feels like they can compare in a head to head public competition. I don't think anyone has taken him up on his offer. There must be at least a touch of something there or someone would have called his bluff already.

To be of any value the comparison must be set up scientifically. The rules of engagement and evaluation criteria must be set in a proper scientific way so that there can then be agreement that the outcomes will be accepted as valid. Until we have this we deal with speculation and personal opinions ... and we have to be honest about this. An independant party needs to set this up and those willing to compete can then submit samples. I think companies will be more open to take part in such an indpenedant process.

But I know that there will never be agreement amongst makers on what tests can be considered "proper scientific" proof. Each will insist on tests he/she considers most valid (ie. what he/she designs for) and even if they were to agree beforehand there will be fights afterwards.

So ... we will more than likely never know for sure ... and until then we cannot accept any claims of "best in the world" as valid.

 

[Nellem]

Only an ill informed person will argue that Busse does not make excellent knives. They do. For sure. But the best? Based on what? Knife torture tests performed by guys wearing masks?

If it was a simple thing then those truly requiring the best would be using the same knives ... but they're not. Winkler has a healthy following amongst Quiet Professionals. So has Chris Reeve. To name a few.

My personal choice for extreme use is Fällkniven. Is it the best in the world? Honestly don't know but I suspect they will give all comers a good run for the money. Is it good enough for me? Absolutely.

 

[Lycosa]

"Extreme use." This one puzzles me.
I like a knife that cuts well for a long time and there are many to choose from.
rolf

 

[Nellem]

"Extreme use." This one puzzles me.
I like a knife that cuts well for a long time and there are many to choose from.
rolf

Extreme = "of a character or kind farthest removed from the ordinary or average"

"Ordinary or average" use of a knife by ordinary/average users is "a knife that cuts well for a long time". There are however those who need a tool that can do more than "cut well for a long time" and they operate these tools at the extremes (under conditions on materials ordinary folks wouldn't).

 

[Lycosa]

Can you give me an example, please? ^

 

[craytab]

I would like to see reliable scientific proof that Busse is better than Fällkniven. Until I see that I consider this "Busse is the absolute best" as mere fanboyism.

One word: warranty. Falkniven isn't even in the ballpark when it comes to standing behind their product in comparison to Busse, or most other companies for that matter. They recently expanded their warranty from 2 years to 10 but it is still quite limited.

It is not just the steel that matters in a quality knife.

 

[rustyrazor]

Bussse will be tougher, and they do stand behind unconditional warranty. Can't comment on Survive, but if you search there are plenty of reports on BRKT knives failures and arguments surrounding those failures.

"busse will be tougher" sounds like a quote that could be backed up by a fact or two if you care to elaborate? not saying you're wrong... i don't know, i've never handled a Busse, but when Jerry says "S7 is tougher than INFI" i'd have to take that as a fact that he himself has looked up and researched in order to make it... otherwise he would not be wise in making that claim. Mr. Busse is a smart buisnessman and makes some pretty incredible knives from what i have read so i doubt he made that claim without using some of that intelect.

 

[rustyrazor]

One word: warranty. Falkniven isn't even in the ballpark when it comes to standing behind their product in comparison to Busse, or most other companies for that matter. They recently expanded their warranty from 2 years to 10 but it is still quite limited.

It is not just the steel that matters in a quality knife.

agreed, with a caveat: This has been discussed at nausium as well and i believe there is a lot more to this aspect than it would appear on the surface. Fallkniven as i am led to believe are made in japan (in a very well respected area) owned in Sweden and sold here through one dealer, so the problem with their warranty is that it's got at least three links in the kill chain, whearas the others are made and sold through one company so it's much easier to deal with complaints.

 

[rcb2000]

Any other high end fixed blade companies that have busse quality and warrenty
I just am not a fan of how busse knives look other that the team Gemini but they discontinued that
Any suggestions ?

Based on your three parameters:
Warranty: Esee has the same warranty, but not the look or quality.
Quality: Many would say (insert X brand here),, but none would have the same warranty to my knowledge.
Look: Well, if you only like the TGLB, then why not get one off the forums? They pop up a lot. Sacrificing quality or warranty for a certain look is purely a personal decision.

Good luck with your search!

It reminds me of that pie chart that says "you can only pick 2,, beautiful, smart, rich"

That being said, is Busse the only brand I will buy? Not at all, plan on picking up a Junglas, a Bark River, and many many more... What do they say about variety....