Can you use ceramics to sharpen s30/90/110v or not?

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

Right.

Scenario: In a normal sharpening task+environment and ceramic refer to normal sharpening abrasive not all type of ceramic crystal structures.

1. TRUE: Diamond can performs whatever ceramic capable of. If needed just dull the diamond or layout diamond pattern certain way or light pressure and etc...

2. TRUE: Diamond can successfully shape edge of a blade made out of pure CBN or TD(Titanium Diboride) or whatever ceramic

3. TRUE: Ceramic CAN'T shape edge of a blade made out of pure CBN or TD(Titanium Diboride) or harder ceramic

Therefore diamond provides a larger functional set than ceramic.

* Exception: When sharpening in high temperature environment (exceed 250C), diamond breakdown - ceramic wins. CBN has higher operating temperature than diamond however ceramic still ahead.

====== Let's talk Vanadium Carbide ====

Can ceramic shape an edge made out of pure/theoretical Vanadium Carbide? Practically NO.

====== Back to OP - S*0V =====
These edges are decorated with 10-22% carbide volume, so diamond advantage is proportional when employed optimal sharpening technique for both type of abrasive.

otoh, when sharpening with low skills: easier to succeed with diamond than ceramic. Put other way, higher probability of poor edge with ceramic than diamond.

Hey Bluntcut, thanks for that, I'm struggling a bit to interpret. So in short, you're saying that anecdotally, you think diamond/cbn material works better even for finishing super steels than ceramic does. Right?

 

[adamlau]

Two and three are odd statements. Are there knives of pure CBN on the market? IIRC, @Steel_Drake was able to successfully sharpen a ceramic blade to push cut newsprint on an SPS II stone. This thread is reminiscent of that one where the same positions are argued

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

It's just a simple discrete math to show diamond is a super set, where ceramic is a sub set in range of materials it can shape.

How often do anyone hear/know ceramic being the finish abrasive for a carbide or various-nitrided blades. As I've pointed out - diamond advantage over ceramic is proportional to VC volume%. 'Proportional' for knife steels probably decline faster than linear. So for many this cross over (equalize/can't tell the diff point) is some where between 3-4%V.

Just ask 100 of new sharpeners to refine s90V apex via DMT EE and UF ceramic method. And then ask them to assess which method produce sharper; durable edge. I think, we can guess from here without actually conduct this experiment - but oh wait...let's hash another 7 pages.

Two and three are odd statements. Are there knives of pure CBN on the market? IIRC, @Steel_Drake was able to successfully sharpen a ceramic blade to push cut newsprint on an SPS II stone. This thread is reminiscent of that one where the same positions are argued

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

It's just a simple discrete math to show diamond is a super set, where ceramic is a sub set in range of materials it can shape.

How often do anyone hear/know ceramic being the finish abrasive for a carbide or various-nitrided blades. As I've pointed out - diamond advantage over ceramic is proportional to VC volume%. 'Proportional' for knife steels probably decline faster than linear. So for many this cross over (equalize/can't tell the diff point) is some where between 3-4%V.

Just ask 100 of new sharpeners to refine s90V apex via DMT EE and UF ceramic method. And then ask them to assess which method produce sharper; durable edge. I think, we can guess from here without actually conduct this experiment - but oh wait...let's hash another 7 pages.

First off, it's kind of a bad idea to ask new sharpeners for any kind of assessment because they don't even know what they're doing, much less observing. Ceramics should really be off the table for beginners except in the case of guided systems, and even then they should be paired with sufficiently coarse stones.

One should always use abrasives that are harder than the material being worked, however high-carbide steel is not a uniform and homogeneous material, but a distribution of carbides in a steel substrate. If we were dealing with a 100% vanadium carbide blade then it would be a different matter entirely, but we're here presented with an object comprised of one material that the abrasive can effectively work, and another (comprising the lesser part of that object) which it cannot.

As far as finishing on sintered ceramic, it's been my experience that the point is not lost even in high-vanadium steels simply because it's not the carbides you're trying to work. You should only be making a few very light passes per side to crisp up the steel component of the apex, not the carbide component. Minimizing the number of strokes and limiting the pressure minimizes burnishing and plastic deformation of the edge, and also reduces wear on the abrasive itself. The carbides will have already been formed on the EEF diamond, and only micro-misalignments of the steel matrix should be impacted under such light pressure and limited strokes. Trying to truly sharpen a dull blade of such steel on sintered alumina would be foolish, though.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

42 - sharp is according to the new/beginner/anyone-willing-to-try sharpener for freshly sharpened and after a few cuts edge. I was suggested only 'refine' stage not entire coarse-to-refine progression, which to avoid opening another pandora's box.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

42 - sharp is according to the new/beginner/anyone-willing-to-try sharpener for freshly sharpened and after a few cuts edge. I was suggested only 'refine' stage not entire coarse-to-refine progression, which to avoid opening another pandora's box.

Except that due to the carbide component, much relies on what work has been done during the earlier stages of the progression. Such blades would have to be identical models, with their initial edges formed using guided systems to best approximate one another, and after the initial bevel setting stage, would have to receive an equal number of strokes at each grit stage before being handed off for the final stages. Those individuals would also then have to be made aware that the sintered ceramic is only for use as the final finishing step, and how it's best used. Given those circumstances I believe they would find it easiest to attain an extremely fine edge with the aid of the sintered ceramic. If they tried scrubbing away with it blindly it would certainly produce worse results, but that's not the best method of use at all.

 

[maximus83]

It definitely refined it more.
- polished with finer abrasive = more refined
- steeled to plastic flow, increased uniformity of edge = more refined
- mix of fine abrasion and plastic flow = more refined

It might very well out perform or perform equally well as any other final finishing method, I am not implying any parlor trickery. I only bring up possibility of burring as I find ceramics to be almost unique in their ability to make small burrs that actually cut well - whittling hair in some cases. I attribute this to the burnishing factor, as smooth-steeled edges can sometimes behave similarly for the same reason.

IF this is the case longevity will suffer. If it is not the case it should hold up as well as any other method.

Ultimately the level of refinement you apply to an edge should have more to do with intended use than any other factor, but hey - ease of maintenance is also a big factor that for me, often trumps other considerations.

Totally agree with the ease of maintenance point, and we've talked about that in PM as well, IIRC, your method of finishing can also be your method of maintenance. Example: finish on a hard strop, maintain on the hard strop. Much simpler.

So, what do you think. How do I determine if the ceramic finishing method is giving me real/durable edges or not? I can keep sharpening a few things this way, but I don't sharpen and use my knives at a high enough volume to figure this out just by observation. I can sharpen with a finishing method of the UF ceramic (no strop), or I can sharpen with the hard strop + cbn compound as the finishing method, and see how the edges hold up and perform.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Totally agree with the ease of maintenance point, and we've talked about that in PM as well, IIRC, your method of finishing can also be your method of maintenance. Example: finish on a hard strop, maintain on the hard strop. Much simpler.

So, what do you think. How do I determine if the ceramic finishing method is giving me real/durable edges or not? I can keep sharpening a few things this way, but I don't sharpen and use my knives at a high enough volume to figure this out just by observation. I can sharpen with a finishing method of the UF ceramic (no strop), or I can sharpen with the hard strop + cbn compound as the finishing method, and see how the edges hold up and perform.

Well, that's the crux - it should either be much better to start or hold up better over time. The only way to figure it out is to use em and if you can't tell a difference then just go with whatever is easier for maintenance.

I'm starting out not the biggest fan of ceramics, so I tend to stay away from them on any steel. In my experience reading on the forums, most people that do prefer them by and large do so because they're using the Sharpmaker.

Final analysis don't overthink it. If it works and is convenient/preferable for whatever reason then run with it. Believe the evidence of your own eyes and hands without discounting what other folk are asserting. Compare when possible, but recognize where your abilities are or might be the limiting factor and just get something you're happy with.

For myself, I only have a few knives that are high Vanadium but many of the knives I sharpen for $ are. They get diamond start to finish - even my house compound is a blend of SIC and diamond. I wouldn't consider using ceramics to finish a high carbide steel for a customer. Even if it did/could do a solid job, it takes more QC time that I'd rather not spend. Waterstones, diamond plates, Washboard. I've considered doing more smooth steel burnishing to finish on lower RC steel, but again, it takes more QC time and offers little or nothing over my preferred methods.