Catastrophic blade failure

Howard has gone ahead and stated what is I'm sure is on everyone's mind.

HI does have legal representation though I've never asked either Bill or Yangdu about any or this so I'm ignorant. I'm not suggesting this is a proper format either for Yangdu to discuss this at this time.

But for me, like all of you, an HI loyalist, I will say this;

There is no amount of testing that will eliminate the possibility of a blade failure. Metal fatigue does not always work like that. Even I know that.
Some form of testing might be eliminate most, but not all failures , and that's a good idea. I wonder now if the picture of Bill leaning on a blade stuck in a crack has some value as a test, though I'd not want my face near the blade if it went.

Frankly, what is left is what faces any small business; they are eligible to be sued for any reason at any time. WE know this reality in America.

What happens to these businesses? I think some get sued and die. Others grow bigger, charge more and sell enough volumne to pay the piper.

One could willfully break a blade, sue, and the onus to prove the blade satisfactory on HI. How much does an expert metalurgist cost in court?

These are matters over my head. I just got the fear, is all.

I know this is where Karma comes in.

I'm really glad it was not more serious.

Continued best wishes to Steve for full recovery.


munk
 
Best wishes to Steve for a fast and complete recovery.

I'm very new to HI and khukri collecting, but this event does make me wonder about the quality of Kumar's recent work. My last HI khukri was an 18" WW2 by Kumar, and the edge wanders pretty far off center. It worried me at first, but I took it out back and chopped up a few old boards and if felt right -- no twisting in the hand -- so I decided to keep it. I'd probably think twice about putting it to a heavy job now, though.
 
There's 40000 knife smiths in America- or whatever. What happens to one when there is a blade failure and injury? Are there 39999?

munk
 
Yangdu and HI were never ever in danger of being sued. Let's not even discuss that possibility. I shouldn't even have mentioned a lawyer, as I hate the fact that our society is so litigious. We have become a nation of victims. I'm not one of them.

I collect and use knives and swords. There is inherent risk there. I accept that risk.

These knives are forged from salvaged materials in a manner that hasn't changed much in centuries. The kamis do a wonderful job most of the time. I don't recall any failures like this in the time I've been here.

Andy, I respectfully (and affectionately) disagree on one point. Kumar is responsible for the failure of the knife, because he made the knife. I don't think for one moment that he is negligent though. There's a huge difference in my mind. I suspect that if he thought the knife might fail, he would not have finished it.

Dan, I think you are correct that the dark spot on the right is the initial point of failure. I had thought that it was a piece of laha, but it is dark and metallic. Possibly an inclusion of slag or a forging flaw that looked ok when it was finished. If it had been on the top of the tang where it was in compression rather than the tension experienced on the bottom, the knife might have never failed. You've got a good eye bud.

I thought of not making this failure public. I posted because:
1. I was concerned that there might be a flaw in the design of the Museum model that might cause other injuries.
2. I love HI enough that I can accept the rare flaws along with the successes.
3. I have enough faith in Yangdu and Pala to correct problems if they exist.
4. I have enough faith in all of you to understand that this is a VERY unusual failure.

I apologize for being so long-winded. Pain killers make me verbose.

Aunt Yangdu, please don't worry about this. It's just a bump in the road.

Steve Ferguson
 
ferguson said:
These knives are forged from salvaged materials in a manner that hasn't changed much in centuries. The kamis do a wonderful job most of the time. I don't recall any failures like this in the time I've been here.

Steve Ferguson
Click to expand...

I don't recall anything like this either. On the positive side; since each knife is handmade there is no reason to suspect that the problem has been reapeated on other knives, or, even the other museum models.

n2s
 
Hmmmm-seems that my habit of not sharping a new knife might just be smarter then I thought! :eek: yes,I usually take a new one out and knock hell outta it before I put an edge on it (I may dull it just a bit if it's too sharp)

Had a WS Roman sword do that ten or so years ago...tang was welded on! :eek: fun let me tell you!!
 
I recall a rare blade or two busting completely off, but no one hurt and the damage being reported to HI quietly and without public notice.

I don't believe for a second that buying sheets of steel would eliminate this problem.

Maybe those of us wanting an authentic, made traditionally khuk must accept the realities of such a product.

There is no question in my mind that everyone here has HI's best interests at heart, were worried for HI, and very supportive of Steve, his health, and the reasons he wisely choose to share this with us. We are all of us on the same page.


munk
 
I wonder Could it be the the 1 in a 1000 downside of making choppers out out of junked vehicle springs with the stresses they have been through on the Indian & Nepali dirt track roads.

The blackness could be a very old crack from its truck life. They would be black inside.

I recall a bladesmith fellow pointed that out as a possibilty regarding junked leaf springs to Munk & I before.

As we are talking the litigation capital of the world, it would be best to follow Howards idea & test blades in Nepal, not leave it up to the customers to do.

If the injury had been worse & not to a good & generous guy like Steve, a multi million dollar lawsuit could be the result. HI & Yangdu could do without that.

What would lawyers make of untested salvaged steel blades bieng sold in court?

Testing would help a lot, I think.

Spiral
 
that is such a thick-looking tang, how the heck did that break?

Sorry Steve, really, Im glad it wasnt worse.
 
The idea that a different source material would change this is fanciful and ridiculous. It is always going to be the forging and hammering that decides a blade. Would sheet steel from India lesson the risk? Would lawyers stay away just because modest steel sheets were rendered in sweat shop conditions? I don't know. Thanks Spiral. Nothing like a little slam when we're vulnerable and being honest. If the other Khuk companies ever sell 30,000 khuks we might find out, but in the meantime, it is best to focus on the reality that no matter what the source, blade Failure Will Occur.

I don't know about you guys, but I can bust anything. Remember the former forumite who busted a blade in half and crippled a couple others, then wrote in to ask if any of us actually used these tools?

Brings up another thing; use something hard enough, long enough, and does anyone here suppose it can't fail?

Blades will fail. I think for the vast majority of us, with hard but reasoned use, they will last a lifetime and to the next. But even good blades will fail, and no matter what you do, I think a bad blade is statistically going to be a reality . I don't care if you forge them in Space and quench them in the juice of virgins, and...well, never mind. You get the idea.

A great great many of the custom Smiths in the US use leaf spring. I am currently forging a knife of leaf spring. Some use old files. I guess all of us are in grave danger.

munk
 
the other thing that i was thinking was that, defect or no, the museum model IS a weapon, a fighting khukuri.
while any HI blade is normally strong enough for all sorts of hard work, a weapon is not normally made for heavy wood chopping work.

Yes, Munk, we ARE all in grave danger. When i stop and think about it I start crying, so it's probably best not to get me thinking about it.
 
"I'm a paranoid schizoid product of the 20th century, and I don't want to die here." Ray Davies



munk
 
I agree with Dan, looks like an honest oopsie. Also agree with Dan about the grain size, partially hardened but not file hard as Steve says and as I suspected. We have had several tang failures before and almost if not always around Dasien.
The kamis are in a hurry to get as many knives made as possible for the time they're going to be off for two weeks. As far as it being Kumar's work that's immaterial.
This could have happened to any one of the kamis, thankfully it wasn't one of the new guys who's work would've been in question for a long time.
As far as it being the recycled steel I doubt that using old leaf springs had anything to do with the failure.
The leaf springs are so thoroughly worked over in the forge that any prior use becomes moot.
The heavily worked steel is basically the same as any new steel.
If the kamis were able to use a gas forge instead of the charcoal there would no doubt be less cold shunts, inclusions, or other forging flaws period.
Most forging flaws never go anywhere but to a novice they seem to be a major flaw but generally they are simply cosmetic.
 
Sorry to here about what happened Steve. Thanks you for being a stand up guy.


Spiral...it wouldn't matter what testing was done or what steel was used if someone wanted to sue. That is the sad fact of it. No matter what company it came from or what warning were issued. To think otherwise this day and age is dangerous.
 
Yvsa said:
I agree with Dan, looks like an honest oopsie. Also agree with Dan about the grain size, partially hardened but not file hard as Steve says and as I suspected. We have had several tang failures before and almost if not always around Dasien.
The kamis are in a hurry to get as many knives made as possible for the time they're going to be off for two weeks. As far as it being Kumar's work that's immaterial.
This could have happened to any one of the kamis, thankfully it wasn't one of the new guys who's work would've been in question for a long time.
As far as it being the recycled steel I doubt that using old leaf springs had anything to do with the failure.
The leaf springs are so thoroughly worked over in the forge that any prior use becomes moot.
The heavily worked steel is basically the same as any new steel.
If the kamis were able to use a gas forge instead of the charcoal there would no doubt be less cold shunts, inclusions, or other forging flaws period.
Most forging flaws never go anywhere but to a novice they seem to be a major flaw but generally they are simply cosmetic.
Click to expand...

Yvsa, thank you for posting that. You said what I wanted to say about Dasin and the rush much better then I would have. (some comments plus what happened after work would have set me off:eek: ) When Uncle Bill was around he would start a count at Dasin I think it was 4 or 5 blades. He figured we would get whe where between 3 and 5 failures be it blades, handles or what ever. One year I got the handle failure. He took care of me and Yangdu is taking care of Steve. Could have been worce, but could have been better too. Either way, it's taken care of. Just remember to test your blades with proper protection before using them. :)

Steve, heal quick and take it slow. After cutting 4 tendons with one of my Khukuris (good blade, bad usage on my part) I know how much a pain the tendons can be. Please follow what your doc tells you do to. IT will help. Good luck and God bless!!

If I had the money I'd email Yangdu right now, buy a new Khukuri and test the snot out of it. Then make it my main blade for the fall camping season. :thumbup:

Heber
 
I am curious to see if any other museum models have problems, maybe they are more a display model than a user, I want to get one someday but only if I can use it I am not much of a displayer. I have only just recently bought my first HI khuk, but I have to say this scrares me not at all. Everynow and then stuff breaks, especially if I use it, I am hard on tools.
 
Funktree, The answer to your question, yes. There have been problems with other Movie Model kukris.

I'll let Satori expand on the story, but essentially, his MM suffered the same ill fate as Steve's.

mike
 
As Mike said, I wrung my MM out a bit at his place just a little while ago. I stopped at the impending failure stage for my own safety.

I started off with some blows on the flats of the blade against dry maple. This used to be SOP with me upon receiving new khukuris but the little forest in my backyard is gone (a story for another time) and I'd taken it as a matter of faith that it would be all right. Several hits later, the laha cracked and began falling out of the top of the bolster. The bolster also showed some deformation at the very top edges indicating blade movement.

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I went on with some chopping and prying and things progressively grew worse. As the laha shook itself free, the blade began moving noticably. The handle made a metallic tinkling noise. I stopped at this point out of concern for my own safety.

Inspection afterward revealed a couple of scary things; the brazing on the bottom of the guard had cracked nearly completely through. Additionally, the handle itself has a hairline crack at 6 o'clock, starting at the guard. It's just visible in the next photo.

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I want to stress that I didn't give this khukuri the Satori Treatment; after the laha started loosening I was reluctant to take any swings at anything approaching full power. I probably shouldn't have gone as far as I did in the first place. This is partially my fault, as I didn't test the MM with any thoroughness at all when I first received it and if Steve hadn't alerted me to a potential problem, I might never have tested it at all. I'm betting that if I'd kept it up, it would've eventually failed in a similar manner to Steve's.

It's not my intention to frighten anyone (just as it wasn't Steve's intention) but I'd recommend anyone owning one of the Museum Models to keep a close eye on things.

If anything I owe Steve for making this matter public and saving me from a potential injury through my own complacency. (Thanks, Steve.) I have no concerns about my other HI's as I've already tested them above and beyond what could be considered reasonable. If there was a hiccup at the shop, I have no doubt that everything will be sorted out in time.

I will reiterate that it's important to test a khukuri when it arrives, and to start small and stay attentive while doing so. Regardless of how large or small a manufacturer is, mistakes can and do happen -- this is why we have warranties on the things that we purchase. Bill felt that it was better to detect a flaw in controlled conditions with help nearby rather than in the middle of the woods somewhere and I'm in agreement with this.

I'm sorry that you were injured, Steve, but if it's any consolation you quite possibly spared me from a similar fate and forced me to re-evaluate the way that I do things. I hope that you recover quickly.
 
brachal said:
I'm very new to HI and khukri collecting, but this event does make me wonder about the quality of Kumar's recent work. My last HI khukri was an 18" WW2 by Kumar, and the edge wanders pretty far off center. It worried me at first, but I took it out back and chopped up a few old boards and if felt right -- no twisting in the hand -- so I decided to keep it. I'd probably think twice about putting it to a heavy job now, though.
Click to expand...

munk said:
There is no amount of testing that will eliminate the possibility of a blade failure. Metal fatigue does not always work like that. Even I know that.
Some form of testing might be eliminate most, but not all failures , and that's a good idea.
Click to expand...

ferguson said:
These knives are forged from salvaged materials in a manner that hasn't changed much in centuries. The kamis do a wonderful job most of the time. I don't recall any failures like this in the time I've been here.
Click to expand...

DannyinJapan said:
that is such a thick-looking tang, how the heck did that break?
Click to expand...

This type of failure at the blade/tang junction is not a new thing. It has happened before and it has happened to me. It only happens on a small percentage of the knives, and if it is going to happen it happens on the first few chops. If the blade survives the pounding it gets in its first few chops it is unlikely to fail in this manner later. Thus Bill's advice to beat the heck out of them on recieving them.

As I recall, HI actually tried proof testing for a while, at Bill's urging. After months of getting no failures they stopped testing, as it seemed like a waste of work. You can't do that. The improperly hardened tang that will fail is a low probability occurrance, but if it does happen it can be serious, as Steve has shown us.

I think some good may come of Steve's terrible accident.
 
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