Corona thread. No politics please

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91bravo said:
Some folks just need to be told what to do, how to feel, and what to think. I’ll make my own medical decisions, as should everyone else.
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My medical decision is to avoid interacting with doctors and pharmaceuticals to the greatest extent possible. If I don't need to be stitched up, I pretty much don't go.

(Doesn't work for everyone, I understand. My wife is the same as me in this regard.)
 
beeinak said:
A recent cardiology study showed 4-28% more myocarditis in people who got mRNA vaccines. The Omicron variant vaccine was ‘tested’ on a tiny number of rats prior to release.

Most of the science relied on was political science.
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The vaccine does seem to have myocarditis as a side effect, but given that the information we have suggests that Covid causes myocarditis at about ten time the rate of the vaccine it's pretty important to control for that.
 
beeinak said:
A recent cardiology study showed 4-28% more myocarditis in people who got mRNA vaccines. The Omicron variant vaccine was ‘tested’ on a tiny number of rats prior to release.

Most of the science relied on was political science.
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Also, I'll happily link you to many, many animal studies performed on primates for the mRNA vaccines for Covid. It's simply false to claim they were only tested on rats.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
The vaccine does seem to have myocarditis as a side effect, but given that the information we have suggests that Covid causes myocarditis at about ten time the rate of the vaccine it's pretty important to control for that.
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So what you're saying is the vaccine DOES lead to myocarditis. *ignores everything else you wrote because it's my decision to ignore anything that goes against my beliefs*
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Do you have any hard data to support that? I don't know that you're wrong, but I don't find, "I'm right, trust me," to inspire much confidence.
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I don’t care what you think and I don’t want to argue with anyone. I am not trying to change anyone’s opinion. As I stated earlier the former head of the CDC, Dr. Makary from Hopkins, a Chinese virologist have said so all along, and now Federal agencies believe it (in addition to many others).

I will refrain from making more comments on the topic. I will part with saying that I think it is nuts that we are participating/funding in any sort of gain of function studies in other countries. We have labs in a current war zone. That is just crazy, and opens up potential for bioweapons to be used if over run or another ‘accidental’ leak. Peace out.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Also, I'll happily link you to many, many animal studies performed on primates for the mRNA vaccines for Covid. It's simply false to claim they were only tested on rats.
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You are very selective what you read. I said the Omicron strain vaccine was released after only testing in rats.
 
The notion that this was made as a weapon makes little sense. It ravages china and still cause them problems. Just like with climate change the fact that something so powerful can come from nature scares the shit out of most people as it should. In the end natures gonna take us out and it's just a question of when. Trying to prevent species extinction with war is like scratching away crabs. Heaven forbid anyone on this planet ever tries to work together. Can't wait to be fucking war wives during ww3 cause I ain't dying for a flag that left every civilian I know high and dry since covid first showed up. Idk about y'all but I am LOVING this "k shaped recovery". Anyone wanna up my rent again because it's becoming a kink🔥🤣🔥
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Here's a study of the omicron strain vaccine being tested in macaques. Apologies, but it has definitely seen primate testing, the information you have is outdated.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8947944/
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When the first vaccine for Omicron strain was released it had only been tested on rats. I did not say there was no further testing. Plus, much of the studies being touted earlier were funded by pharma. As with most any statistics, you can find ‘studies’ to back any argument.

I really don’t want to go round-and-round about beliefs/opinions. The other insinuation by another poster regarding Fox news is pretty snide. I first learned about Covid several months prior to US coverage from medical news in other countries, Siberian Times, Russian Times, and Al Jazeera. I follow news from many sources and try to find what I believe. The terrible thing is that most news organizations now only present one political side to most situations so it is hard for people to truly get all the information unless they check multiple sites.

I retired from medicine and I will try to keep my opinions off the forums. I enjoy the knife discussions and do not want that enjoyment tainted by disagreeing with another member(s) about something we view so differently and has nothing to do with why I am here. I apologize if I offended anyone.

I hope everyone stays healthy and safe.
 
91bravo said:
No matter what side of the aisle you’re on, Covid has divided this country like nothing I’ve seen in my lifetime.
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Pretty sure this beat Covid by at least 12,000 years.
Mississippi_watershed_map_1.jpg
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Do you have any hard data to support that? I don't know that you're wrong, but I don't find, "I'm right, trust me," to inspire much confidence.
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There are more and more sources agreeing that the original Covid virus was not a naturally occurring mutation.

If you want to go digging through the data, the original Covid genome has sections that show significant jumps, that have been previously seen in other gain of function research. Some of the substitutions have not been seen in naturally occurring viruses.

A deliberate release? I don't think we'll ever know for sure, but I'm leaning towards accidental release, due to lax standards/precautions.

Another interesting data point that supports the 'Accidental lab release of a gain of function research virus', is research on immunotypes and whether there's a genetic predisposition to severe Covid. There is a gene, that's been found to occur in a much higher % of patients with severe Covid. This particular gene appears in ~50% of persons of East Asian descent (and quite a bit less in other races). It makes sense that researchers testing gain of function against human cells, might be using human cells easily harvested from the popular (i.e. they were testing it against human cells from their own population, which potentially means they're inadvertently increasing gain of function against their own genetic commonality).


*** Virology 101, for those who might be interested

That said, viruses DO mutate all the time, and can do so rapidly. These mutations were regularly tracked through the pandemic, to determine which mutations/substitutions in specific sections, might have resulted in increased virulence or infectivity etc.

All the way back in the Fall of 2020, the Alpha variant began spreading rapidly in the UK. The speed and rate at which it was spreading, indicated mutations that significantly increased transmission and infectivity.

Previously, the SARS-Cov-2 virus had been accruing ~1 mutation every 2 weeks (the news media only reports new variants when they're declared by the CDC/WHO, because many of these mutations are benign. Most of the mutations don't have any real effect on the virus).

The Alpha variant had 17 mutations (and by mutations, we mean amino acid substitutions at specific locations, which is how viruses mutate).

Viruses don't mutate with intent. It's simply replication errors as the virus forces cells to replicate it. Most of the amino acid substitutions do nothing, but occasionally, they make the virus weaker, sometimes they make it stronger (eg. mutations to the spike protein increased its ability to attach to ACE2 receptors, resulting in an increase in infectivity AND virulence). Then selective pressure results in the more infectious strain superceding the weaker, less transmissible variants.

They traced the spread of the Alpha variant to the locale where they found this variant, and found what seems likely to have been patient zero (despite folks following the developments with no medical background claiming that the Alpga variant was another weaponized lab release, because 17 mutations seemed unprecedented).

The patient zero had basically had a lingering infection for ~2 months. Basically, their immune system didn't clear the infection quickly, and THAT is one avenue to accruing a lot of mutations within a single variant.

Mutations occur naturally in the viruses replication cycles. Most people tend to clear the virus within 7-14 days, so the virus tends to maybe see 1 amino acid substitution within the virus in that one person.

Whether they spread this mutation to anyone, is also uncertain, and dependent on the person's behavior (and damn, if a lot of people are inconsiderate as hell, and don't give a darn about getting other people sick, once they themselves are sick). IF this variant is transmitted, then it might see another single amino acid substitution, for a variant with 2 mutations from the original etc. etc. This also allows tracing of the lineage of the mutations and variants.

In a patient with a lingering infection, though, the virus continues with many more replication cycles than normal, and can accrue many more mutations in this one variant, than normally seen, and this HAS been previously seen and documented with other viruses.

And that's just from a single viruses natural replication errors. A concurrent infection with another virus at the same time, has the potential to result in antigenic shift (large mutations from substitutions of segments), from substitutions between the viruses infecting a cell (and forcing the cell to replicate the viruses).

This is a big reason why pigs are virologically 'filthy'. They're vulnerable to human viruses, and vulnerable to some avian viruses that normally can't infect humans, but if a pig happens to get infected concurrently with a human virus and an avian virus, it's possible for the avian virus to pick up substitutions that would allow it to species jump to humans, (and this is also documented, and has previously occurred).

China, having massive pig farms right next to massive chicken farms, really doesn't help matters, as it increases the incidence of (and has resulted in) viruses crossing between the species.

It's just one of many reasons why China (and Africa) are the 2 places where a lot of new viruses first pop up (along with both country's cultures resulting in more human contact with exotic animal species, with poor sanitary habits, thereby increasing the possibility of new zoonotic virii).
 
bluemax_1 said:
There are more and more sources agreeing that the original Covid virus was not a naturally occurring mutation.

If you want to go digging through the data, the original Covid genome has sections that show significant jumps, that have been previously seen in other gain of function research. Some of the substitutions have not been seen in naturally occurring viruses.

A deliberate release? I don't think we'll ever know for sure, but I'm leaning towards accidental release, due to lax standards/precautions.

Another interesting data point that supports the 'Accidental lab release of a gain of function research virus', is research on immunotypes and whether there's a genetic predisposition to severe Covid. There is a gene, that's been found to occur in a much higher % of patients with severe Covid. This particular gene appears in ~50% of persons of East Asian descent (and quite a bit less in other races). It makes sense that researchers testing gain of function against human cells, might be using human cells easily harvested from the popular (i.e. they were testing it against human cells from their own population, which potentially means they're inadvertently increasing gain of function against their own genetic commonality).


*** Virology 101, for those who might be interested

That said, viruses DO mutate all the time, and can do so rapidly. These mutations were regularly tracked through the pandemic, to determine which mutations/substitutions in specific sections, might have resulted in increased virulence or infectivity etc.

All the way back in the Fall of 2020, the Alpha variant began spreading rapidly in the UK. The speed and rate at which it was spreading, indicated mutations that significantly increased transmission and infectivity.

Previously, the SARS-Cov-2 virus had been accruing ~1 mutation every 2 weeks (the news media only reports new variants when they're declared by the CDC/WHO, because many of these mutations are benign. Most of the mutations don't have any real effect on the virus).

The Alpha variant had 17 mutations (and by mutations, we mean amino acid substitutions at specific locations, which is how viruses mutate).

Viruses don't mutate with intent. It's simply replication errors as the virus forces cells to replicate it. Most of the amino acid substitutions do nothing, but occasionally, they make the virus weaker, sometimes they make it stronger (eg. mutations to the spike protein increased its ability to attach to ACE2 receptors, resulting in an increase in infectivity AND virulence). Then selective pressure results in the more infectious strain superceding the weaker, less transmissible variants.

They traced the spread of the Alpha variant to the locale where they found this variant, and found what seems likely to have been patient zero (despite folks following the developments with no medical background claiming that the Alpga variant was another weaponized lab release, because 17 mutations seemed unprecedented).

The patient zero had basically had a lingering infection for ~2 months. Basically, their immune system didn't clear the infection quickly, and THAT is one avenue to accruing a lot of mutations within a single variant.

Mutations occur naturally in the viruses replication cycles. Most people tend to clear the virus within 7-14 days, so the virus tends to maybe see 1 amino acid substitution within the virus in that one person.

Whether they spread this mutation to anyone, is also uncertain, and dependent on the person's behavior (and damn, if a lot of people are inconsiderate as hell, and don't give a darn about getting other people sick, once they themselves are sick). IF this variant is transmitted, then it might see another single amino acid substitution, for a variant with 2 mutations from the original etc. etc. This also allows tracing of the lineage of the mutations and variants.

In a patient with a lingering infection, though, the virus continues with many more replication cycles than normal, and can accrue many more mutations in this one variant, than normally seen, and this HAS been previously seen and documented with other viruses.

And that's just from a single viruses natural replication errors. A concurrent infection with another virus at the same time, has the potential to result in antigenic shift (large mutations from substitutions of segments), from substitutions between the viruses infecting a cell (and forcing the cell to replicate the viruses).

This is a big reason why pigs are virologically 'filthy'. They're vulnerable to human viruses, and vulnerable to some avian viruses that normally can't infect humans, but if a pig happens to get infected concurrently with a human virus and an avian virus, it's possible for the avian virus to pick up substitutions that would allow it to species jump to humans, (and this is also documented, and has previously occurred).

China, having massive pig farms right next to massive chicken farms, really doesn't help matters, as it increases the incidence of (and has resulted in) viruses crossing between the species.

It's just one of many reasons why China (and Africa) are the 2 places where a lot of new viruses first pop up (along with both country's cultures resulting in more human contact with exotic animal species, with poor sanitary habits, thereby increasing the possibility of new zoonotic virii).
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Thank you Blue Max, that is a very high quality post.
 
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